J Freeman is better than Luke Kuechley

[The Hawk]

There was a play a few years back where Cutler rolled out of the pocket towards the side line, held the ball, never threw as he ran out of bounds.

The LB on the play was moving along with Cutler and got a hand on him as he went down and was the primary reason Cutler couldn't turn up field and run. The SS on the play was coming up as well, but never got there. Never touched him. Was kinda in the vicinity as Cutler ran out of bounds. But as the LB went down, the SS was the closest as Cutler went out. He got credit for the sack.

And PFF gave him a +2... The LB graded a 0.

There is no way in the fucking world a coach would grade that play like that or agree to it unless he didn't actually see the play.

I love it when you analyze

 

[The Hawk]

What's the point? None of us would know either but that doesn't stop posters on CCS commenting on how good they think players are. Did we not have a ton of people commenting on which college QB was the best, etc. Or citing Watson's interceptions with no understanding of the play call?

If PFF is crap simply because there is some subjectivity to their grades then every single opinion every expressed by a CCS poster is also crap because none of us watch enough plays or know enough about what the play call, coverage, or game plan is to opine.

That is pretty much it in a nutshell. CCS posters don't know shit of what we talk about

 

[The Hawk]

Now you are contradicting yourself as you said "Of course every CCS posters opinion is crap...other than mine and those that 100% agree with me."

If every opinion here is based on zero working knowledge then you have no basis to then also claim that yours is not crap. If you want to say everyone's is crap including yours then I won't argue that. Otherwise, I think we as rational human beings should be able to understand that while we may vehemently disagree with each other, that sometimes that disagreement is due to good faith differences and sometimes it's due to irrationality. We likely just disagree on the degree to which those things occur.

I just don't really see the logic of harping on PFF's subjective grade when your subjective opinion is even less informed due to it likely being formed without watching every single play and when it is not tempered by a professional reviewing your thought process. That doesn't mean PFF is right because it obviously isn't all the time. It just makes the vitriol spewed against it seem irrational or trolling if fundamentally you truly understand and believe what you have actually written.

I think that PFF is pretty much a boondoggle all the way around. THey can package up shit in a nice box with fancy wrapping paper around it but it still is just a box of shit.

 

[Tjodalv]

I think that PFF is pretty much a boondoggle all the way around. THey can package up shit in a nice box with fancy wrapping paper around it but it still is just a box of shit.

But them Madden ratings are gospel!

 

[remydat]

To call this analysis 'interesting' would be like calling your postings in this thread "level-headed".

What specifically was interesting about these articles? PFF grades are completely subjective (and make-believe) metrics that are applied after-the-fact...do you know how stupid it would be if the PFF grades had no correlation to winning games, when the graders already know who won? It would be like someone betting on games after they've already taken place, and then claiming they have a 60% success rate.

The only mildly interesting part of the articles was the fact that the PFF grades have no significant correlation to winning and have no predictive value whatsoever. But I already knew that.

You opinion is completely subjective but you still share it so what's you point? We all know their metrics are subjective. If that disqualifies them from being interesting then none of our subjective opinions are interesting including yours.

You analogy also doesn't make sense. In your scenario you are betting on the outcome of something that is already known so there is no real logical reason to bet on the team that lost. So there is no real reason to have an outcome where you would bet on the losing team. In the PFF scenario, the fact a team won or loss doesn't mean the individual players on the losing team played worse than the players on the winning team. There are obviously scenarios where people played well in a loss or where the team that played better didn't actually win. So there are in effect scenarios where you would bet on the losing team ie scenarios where players on the losing team end up with higher grades than players on the winning team. This is especially true when all positions are not equal. A team could have a better overall grade because say their OL dominated but the other team may still have won because Tom Brady had a good game and his doing so overrules the other team having a better overall grade due to more players with positive grades.

 

[didshereallysaythat]

You opinion is completely subjective but you still share it so what's you point? We all know their metrics are subjective. If that disqualifies them from being interesting then none of our subjective opinions are interesting including yours.

You analogy also doesn't make sense. In your scenario you are betting on the outcome of something that is already known so there is no real logical reason to bet on the team that lost. So there is no real reason to have an outcome where you would bet on the losing team. In the PFF scenario, the fact a team won or loss doesn't mean the individual players on the losing team played worse than the players on the winning team. There are obviously scenarios where people played well in a loss or where the team that played better didn't actually win. So there are in effect scenarios where you would bet on the losing team ie scenarios where players on the losing team end up with higher grades than players on the winning team. This is especially true when all positions are not equal. A team could have a better overall grade because say their OL dominated but the other team may still have won because Tom Brady had a good game and his doing so overrules the other team having a better overall grade due to more players with positive grades.

 

[Jailbreak]

I sorta get his point, Freeman was a great signing. He doesn't possess the same speed and it's a different scheme, however.

 

[Jailbreak]

PFF is silly, btw. You can't measure everything statistically and sometimes it can make you look very foolish. Measurement is just an added benefit.

 

[remydat]

I can defend/explain my opinion with thoughts. You can't defend/explain PFF grades, because you don't know the calculations or who is doing the calculations. I would rather the PFF grades be done entirely by one person, because then you would at least have some semblance of consistency throughout the league. Having so many different people do the PFF grades make player comparison completely pointless...like how one PFF grader had Adrian Amos as an '85' while another PFF grader had Harrison Smith as an '83'.

What is the point of having individual subjective player grades that cannot be compared to other players?

And I can defend and explain PFF's grades with thoughts as well. I know their methodology for grading and I know that their grades are subject to oversight by coaches. I can make a subjective determination that the methodology makes sense and is acceptable to me just as you can make your subjective determination that it is not sufficient for you.

I do this every day. As a Director at my job, I also have different people making different subjective determinations about various things and it's my job as a Director to ensure those different people are doing things and thinking about things in a consistent way. So not sure why this idea confuses. It would be Special person for one person to grade all players as it's simply not feasible. So rational people simple develop a process or methodology and put checks and balances in place to ensure that process or methodology is carried out in a manner that is consistent.

If people applied your dumb logic of one person making all subjective determinations on various things, society would collapse because it's not a feasible way of doing anything. This would be like saying one person should judge all murder cases because juries and judges have different subjective opinions on the evidence.

 

[didshereallysaythat]

And I can defend and explain PFF's grades with thoughts as well. I know their methodology for grading and I know that their grades are subject to oversight by coaches. I can make a subjective determination that the methodology makes sense and is acceptable to me just as you can make your subjective determination that it is not sufficient for you.

I do this every day. As a Director at my job, I also have different people making different subjective determinations about various things and it's my job as a Director to ensure those different people are doing things and thinking about things in a consistent way. So not sure why this idea confuses. It would be Special person for one person to grade all players as it's simply not feasible. So rational people simple develop a process or methodology and put checks and balances in place to ensure that process or methodology is carried out in a manner that is consistent.

If people applied your dumb logic of one person making all subjective determinations on various things, society would collapse because it's not a feasible way of doing anything. This would be like saying one person should judge all murder cases because juries and judges have different subjective opinions on the evidence.

Do the partners know that you post on a sports message board all day?

 

[FirstTimer]

And I can defend and explain PFF's grades with thoughts as well.

No you can't. I asked you to repeatedly do so in a thread about Adrian Amos and you refused to. In fact, I've never seen you defend any PFF grades with your own thoughts. All you would (rarely) do is link articles to other sites.

 

[satchice]

Do the partners know that you post on a sports message board all day?

I'm calling BS! No way that dude has a full time job let alone is a Director.

 

[remydat]

Do the partners know that you post on a sports message board all day?

The ones I work for do because they crack jokes about it all the time. They don't care because I get my shit done. I am not sure why it confuses you that you keep asking about it. I spend 16 hours a day on a computer and I switch between reviewing electronic workpapers and posting shit on a message board. It breaks up the monotony.

 

[FirstTimer]

I am not sure why it confuses you that you keep asking about it.

Irony of the highest order here.

 

[remydat]

No you can't. I asked you to repeatedly do so in a thread about Adrian Amos and you refused to. In fact, I've never seen you defend any PFF grades with your own thoughts. All you would (rarely) do is link articles to other sites.

I can defend and explain them by discussing the process and methodology they use to arrive at the grade. I am defending the process and methodology. I don't know how a scientist does all their calculations to decide that black holes or other shit exists but I can read their methodology and process and form a conclusion as to whether it is reasonable.

PFF provides subjective grades. I understand and think their process for doing so is reasonable. That doesn't mean their subjective grade is always right because it's subjective which by definition means someone else may have had a different opinion. However, based on what I have read about the process I think they have a process and methodology to ensure that their graders are grading things as consistently as possible given the subjective nature of the grading.

Like I am not sure why this confuses people. I don't need to know the granular level details of each and every grade on each and every play to decide whether the overall process and methodology makes sense. I deal with subjective interpretations of things all the time in my job and my role is not to review every single piece of data. It's to ensure a reasonably consistent process or methodology is being followed.

 

[FirstTimer]

For what it's worth, it's been five months and I'm still waiting for remy to answer these questions about Amos....

What big plays has he prevented? How? When? He clearly doesn't create turnovers(1 in two years) he doesn't make disruptive plays(1 FF and 1 sack in two years) he made a lot of tackles behind an awful front 7 last year. He's terrible in coverage, hence his on and off benching.

What does Amos specifically do to make him adequate? How can you personally support PFF's numbers? What specifically have you seen from Amos that would say to you "yeah PFF is right?

Any "big play" Amos is a part of he's on the wrong end of. (Blaine Gabbert, etc) What big plays has he prevented?

So please...you say "And I can defend and explain PFF's grades with thoughts as well."..so please FINALLY do so.

 

[FirstTimer]

I can defend and explain them by discussing the process and methodology they use to arrive at the grade.

The process and methodology is them watching the game and evaluating Amos' play..

to which I ask again:

For what it's worth, it's been five months and I'm still waiting for remy to answer these questions about Amos....

What big plays has he prevented? How? When? He clearly doesn't create turnovers(1 in two years) he doesn't make disruptive plays(1 FF and 1 sack in two years) he made a lot of tackles behind an awful front 7 last year. He's terrible in coverage, hence his on and off benching.

What does Amos specifically do to make him adequate? How can you personally support PFF's numbers? What specifically have you seen from Amos that would say to you "yeah PFF is right?

Any "big play" Amos is a part of he's on the wrong end of. (Blaine Gabbert, etc) What big plays has he prevented?

So please...you say "And I can defend and explain PFF's grades with thoughts as well."..so please FINALLY do so.

 

[remydat]

For what it's worth, it's been five months and I'm still waiting for remy to answer these questions about Amos....

So please...you say "And I can defend and explain PFF's grades with thoughts as well."..so please FINALLY do so.

What are you talking about? This isn't a question of PFF grades. This is a question of specific big plays he has prevented. Two completely different things. I never said I knew what big plays he has prevented. I said that part of a S job is to not just get interceptions but to hopefully discourage a pass from being made. I then said that the Bears D as a whole didn't give up a ton of big plays and speculated that Amos may be a part of that given he had the best grade of people in the secondary.

At no point did I claim I knew he prevented big plays. I merely speculated based on the available data. None of which has anything to do with PFFs process or methodology for grading players. Interceptions are not a big enough amount of pass plays a S is involved in to be a reasonable measure of a Safety's overall play which was the point being made. Demps was one of the league leaders in Ints with like 6 but those 6 interceptions don't mean he played great on the other 400 or so passes the opposing team made.

 

[didshereallysaythat]

I'm calling BS! No way that dude has a full time job let alone is a Director.

Do you know David Anderson?

 

[FirstTimer]

What are you talking about? This isn't a question of PFF grades.

Everything you just posted is wrong. Go back, read the thread, please (finally) answer.

Thanks