J Freeman is better than Luke Kuechley

[Warrior Spirit]

The coaches review the grades or each play?

PFF data is crap.

Yes, they do and I don't think their data is crap at all. I might even pay 3,000 bucks for it.


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[FirstTimer]

And that's where you and so many clueless people go wrong. The first 3 layers of grades for each play and player are done by 3 different unpaid shitty interns. After them, a network of 28 former and current NFL and college coaches reviews those grades. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that coaching network knows a helluva lot more than most dummies here.


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Fixed your post a bit...plus

So coaches are reviewing grades, not the actual methodology or the plays themselves that lead to the grades.

:aj:

Seems like a good system............................ :aj:

Gotta love Spartan about to die on the turd pile hill that is PFF analysis.

 

[FirstTimer]

Yes, they do and I don't think their data is crap at all. I might even pay 3,000 bucks for it.


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The coaches aren't reviewing the actual plays....because if they were PFF would just be paying the coaches to grade based on those plays and not having to have unpaid interns do it.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

Fixed your post a bit...plus

So coaches are reviewing grades, not the actual methodology or the plays themselves that lead to the grades.

:aj:

Seems like a good system............................ :aj:

Gotta love Spartan about to die on the turd pile hill that is PFF analysis.

The paid shitty interns and network of 28 coaches all review the same plays and use the same grading system. The coaches are the ones who get final look and say.

I think what they do is great, really gives you a better feel. With the skill positions I find the best players consistently get the best grades. With pass rushing and o-line it gets a bit iffy with those hurries.


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[Warrior Spirit]

The coaches aren't reviewing the actual plays....because if they were PFF would just be paying the coaches to grade based on those plays and not having to have unpaid interns do it.

You don't have to guess about how they grade. They tell you. https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/how-we-grade/

 

[gpphat]

The problem with the PFF grades is some fans look at them and take it almost as gospel. The real test should be the trade test...If the Panthers were to offer Kuechley straight up for Freeman would the Bears take that deal and vice versa if the Bears offered Freeman straight up for Kuechley would the Panthers take the deal?

 

[Warrior Spirit]

The problem with the PFF grades is some fans look at them and take it almost as gospel. The real test should be the trade test...If the Panthers were to offer Kuechley straight up for Freeman would the Bears take that deal and vice versa if the Bears offered Freeman straight up for Kuechley would the Panthers take the deal?

Idk, Luke's brains are kinda scrambled now.


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[FirstTimer]

The paid shitty interns and network of 28 coaches all review the same plays and use the same grading system. The coaches are the ones who get final look and say.

I think what they do is great, really gives you a better feel. With the skill positions I find the best players consistently get the best grades. With pass rushing and o-line it gets a bit iffy with those hurries.


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You don't have to guess about how they grade. They tell you. https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/how-we-grade/

You're right. I don't. Bort personally knows people that do the grading. He's covered this before. I eventually tracked down some people that do grading as well through friends that work in radio and print.

It's essentially unpaid interns that aren't even watching All-22.

It's a crock.

The coaches don't review the plays. They review the end grades.

If the coaches were viewing the actual plays PFF would just have the coaches do the grading..not Bob from Niles.

All of the above is factual. There's nothing left to discuss on the subject.

Have a good one.

But keep dying on this hill.

You picked a good one.

 

[remydat]

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/...football-focus-grades-NFL-Philadelphia-eagles

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/...focus-grades-infinite-frontier-stats-analysis

Interesting analysis regarding whether PFF grades correlate to wins during a season as well as wins during an individual game.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

You're right. I don't. Bort personally knows people that do the grading. He's covered this before. I eventually tracked down some people that do grading as well through friends that work in radio and print.

It's essentially unpaid interns that aren't even watching All-22.

It's a crock.

The coaches don't review the plays. They review the end grades.

If the coaches were viewing the actual plays PFF would just have the coaches do the grading..not Bob from Niles.

All of the above is factual. There's nothing left to discuss on the subject.

Have a good one.

But keep dying on this hill.

You picked a good one.

Be a bitch then.....


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[Mongo_76]

You don't have to guess about how they grade. They tell you. https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/how-we-grade/

I asked the question because I already knew the answer and wanted to see if you would be honest.

No where does it say the coaches review each play. It says "coaches verify the grades".

This is misleading and typical of PFF - who's stats are crap (btw).

 

[Warrior Spirit]

I asked the question because I already knew the answer and wanted to see if you would be honest.

No where does it say the coaches review each play. It says "coaches verify the grades".

This is misleading and typical of PFF - who's stats are crap (btw).

Why do you and FT hate them so?


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[Mongo_76]

You're right. I don't. Bort personally knows people that do the grading. He's covered this before. I eventually tracked down some people that do grading as well through friends that work in radio and print.

It's essentially unpaid interns that aren't even watching All-22.

It's a crock.

The coaches don't review the plays. They review the end grades.

If the coaches were viewing the actual plays PFF would just have the coaches do the grading..not Bob from Niles.

All of the above is factual. There's nothing left to discuss on the subject.

Have a good one.

But keep dying on this hill.

You picked a good one.

Noting that they don't watch All-22 is a great point, and part of the reason the stats are crap. PFF grades come out BEFORE the All-22 is released. It is literally impossible to watch broadcast games and know what every player is doing on ANY single play.

And yet, somehow these super-sluth interns can see what a DB is doing on a play when he's not even in the camera shot...

Did I mention PFF stats are crap?

 

[remydat]

The problem with the PFF grades is some fans look at them and take it almost as gospel. The real test should be the trade test...If the Panthers were to offer Kuechley straight up for Freeman would the Bears take that deal and vice versa if the Bears offered Freeman straight up for Kuechley would the Panthers take the deal?

That still doesn't work though because there is also the issue of age differences as well as the issue of body of work and/or consistency. It's quite possible for Freeman to have a better year in 2016 but not be a better overall player when you look at their entire careers. Or for people to say Luke had a down year while Freeman had a career year both of which are not reflective of their future play.

 

[Novak]

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/...football-focus-grades-NFL-Philadelphia-eagles

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/...focus-grades-infinite-frontier-stats-analysis

Interesting analysis regarding whether PFF grades correlate to wins during a season as well as wins during an individual game.

While those articles are interesting, the argument being made here is about how "correct" PFF is at judging individual players... not how the grades assigned correlate to a teams success.

 

[Adipost]

The problem with the PFF grades is some fans look at them and take it almost as gospel. The real test should be the trade test...If the Panthers were to offer Kuechley straight up for Freeman would the Bears take that deal and vice versa if the Bears offered Freeman straight up for Kuechley would the Panthers take the deal?

And who in this thread has claimed PFF to be gospel? Someone posted that they take the PFF analysis seriously because they do analysis of every play. And the rebuttal to that has been the claim that PFF analysis is simply utter garbage. Now which side would you say is the more rational one?

 

[Novak]

Bottom line is this.. there is SOME value to be had out of PFF. The grades given are good as a verrrry vague, general guide. However, they are not even remotely close to being accurate enough to take as gospel, for a multitude of reasons that have been listed in this thread and others.

The fact that they don't review all-22 should be reason enough to see that they can't be taken too seriously.

 

[remydat]

While those articles are interesting, the argument being made here is about how "correct" PFF is at judging individual players... not how the grades assigned correlate to a teams success.

Of course. I just added it here because I found it interesting. Nothing is going to settle that other debate because all anyone keeps saying is that it's unpaid interns. But the people saying it are just CCS posters. So it seems CCS posters think their opinions on players hold greater weight that unpaid interns. Well the difference is at least those unpaid interns have a former coach reviewing their grades while all these CCS posters have are each other.

I feel a lot more comfortable with a PFF grade that has been reviewed by a coach than I do some random CCS poster who is no different than these unpaid interns except they spout their opinions without any checks and balances.

The benefit of PFF is that they follow a more systematic process than I do. So if I see a player that has a higher or lower grade than I would expect, I may do some more research or review more tape to see if maybe I missed something or maybe I am judging someone based on reputation rather than play.

Case in point, not a single person here really has any means to say Luke was better than Freeman last year because most of us don't give a flying fuck about the Panthers to be watching them all the time to have any sense of how Luke played last year. So we merely rely on his reputation to say it is not possible for Freeman to have played better which is simply just group think or bias.

So how does that make us better than these alleged unpaid interns. We have no basis for our opinion except reputations or maybe watching one or two of Luke's games this past year.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

And that is why God invented PEDs.

Yeah, but you get to that point where you fall off a cliff with them.


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[gpphat]

And who in this thread has claimed PFF to be gospel? Someone posted that they take the PFF analysis seriously because they do analysis of every play. And the rebuttal to that has been the claim that PFF analysis is simply utter garbage. Now which side would you say is the more rational one?

No one in this thread said that, but plenty refer to PFF grades as if they are the be all end all in grading players...which obviously isn't the case. PFF grades do have some value but are flawed. The OP obviously posted this because it is ridiculous to grade out Freeman as the better LB. Freeman had a good year but no one in their right mind would say Freeman is the better LB.