Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel traded to Oakland Athletics for Addison Russell plus

Shawon0Meter

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I can't help but have the mentality that if pitchers as good or better than Shark become available, the Cubs will be outbid. They'll aw shucks finish 2nd or 3rd in the offers every time.
 

SilenceS

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The cubs offered Shark $500k less per season than the reds did with Bailey. Shark turned them down. Let's stop acting like the cubs are just being cheap here. A 5 year $85 mil deal for someone 1.5 years away from FA is perfectly fair. Anibal Sanchez who's been a much better pitcher than Shark got 5 years $80 mil prior to the 2013 season and he was a full FA not buying out 1.5 years of arbitration which are way cheaper.

I also find it interesting people are quite worried about replacing him when Maholm pitched better than him in 2012 and Feldman pitched better than him in 2013. Perhaps you can argue that this year he's been so much better but Hammel has a 2.98 ERA vs his 2.83. So at the very least their cheap signings have been as good if not better than Shark has at ~$5 mil per season. Then there's Arrieta who I think is in line for a regression but until that point he's been the cubs best pitcher this season who they got in return for Feldman.

I have no problem with them keeping Shark as he's a decent pitcher. But I really don't get this outrage for someone who's arguably been built up to something he's not. He's not Clayton Kershaw. He's not Felix Hernandez. He's more like Madison Bumgarner who signed a 6 year $35.56 million deal in 2012. Granted the Giants bought out more of his arbitration. However, even the years at the end of his normal FA period would only be $12 mil/season which is substantially lower than the $17 mil/season they offered Shark. Gio Gonzalez who's also been a better pitcher than Shark over the past 3 years that pays him $12 mil/year after his typical arbitration period. AJ Burnett has gotten $16.5 mil the past 2 seasons on the final years of the giant deal he got from the Yankees and is making $15 mil this year.

You don't get better by over paying people. Jordan Zimmermann becomes a FA in 2016. Mat Latos is a FA in 2016. Doug Fister is a FA in 2016. Johnny Cueto is a FA in 2016. Yu Darvish is a FA in 2017. Kris Medlen is a FA in 2016. David Price is a FA in 2016. Max Scherzer is a FA in 2015. Stephen Strasburg is a FA in 2017. Those are all options that have been better than Shark the past 2.5 years. James Shields is a FA in 2015. Jon Lester is a FA in 2015. Francisco Liriano is a FA in 2015. Rick Porcello is a FA in 2016. Those options have been within range of being as good as Shark.

So there are numerous options even if some of the guys above re-sign. And that's before you even talk about what they get in return.

How many of them hit the market in todays age? Also, lets not compare Shark who is just coming into his prime to one year wonders that went right back to their norm in the second half. You go to the playoffs. you want bulldogs. Guys who throw hard and can shut down an offense. Its why people went way to far with Travis Wood being the next great thing. The Cubs trade Shark they are taking more of a risk then they sign him. Trading Shark is saying you will sign a big time pitcher. that is not a given and with our team is a lot harder then you think. No, you shouldnt give Shark the world but lets not act like trading him is no big deal. As much as people praised the Garza trade, it comes down to CJ Edwards. Yes, we are getting service time out of Grimm and Ramirez but middle inning bullpen guys are never worth a starter. Olt is what I thought he was and it comes down to Edwards. He becomes nothing then you netted very little for Garza. I am ok with the Garza trade because he wanted a 100 million dollar contract and the market wasnt going to give it to him. They will give it to Shark.
 

chibears55

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I either want a lopsided trade in our favor or to keep him.


I personally think their plan has always been is to get a big return for him or extend him before ST 2015 starts..

Reason being is because the cubs know their a few years away from contending while waiting for the baez bryant etc.
So their in no big need of that big money starter yet..

So with samardzija who home grown and just 29 they can bait him this year and see if a team will over pay and if they dont get what they want by ST next year, they can give him the money he looking for for 4 or 5 yrs and just let him lead the staff while the team grows..

Its a smart move by the cubs cause they either get a big haul in a trade if they patiently wait or they just keep him and extend him for 4 / 5 yrs while the team grows experience behind him.
 

SilenceS

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I personally think their plan has always been is to get a big return for him or extend him before ST 2015 starts..

Reason being is because the cubs know their a few years away from contending while waiting for the baez bryant etc.
So their in no big need of that big money starter yet..

So with samardzija who home grown and just 29 they can bait him this year and see if a team will over pay and if they dont get what they want by ST next year, they can give him the money he looking for for 4 or 5 yrs and just let him lead the staff while the team grows..

Its a smart move by the cubs cause they either get a big haul in a trade if they patiently wait or they just keep him and extend him for 4 / 5 yrs while the team grows experience behind him.

Eh, I think the Cubs are going to have to contend sooner then later. Theo and Hoyer may not have a job if the cubs are still losing like this in 2016. I dont care how good the farm is.
 

Boobaby1

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The cubs offered Shark $500k less per season than the reds did with Bailey. Shark turned them down. Let's stop acting like the cubs are just being cheap here. A 5 year $85 mil deal for someone 1.5 years away from FA is perfectly fair. Anibal Sanchez who's been a much better pitcher than Shark got 5 years $80 mil prior to the 2013 season and he was a full FA not buying out 1.5 years of arbitration which are way cheaper.

I also find it interesting people are quite worried about replacing him when Maholm pitched better than him in 2012 and Feldman pitched better than him in 2013. Perhaps you can argue that this year he's been so much better but Hammel has a 2.98 ERA vs his 2.83. So at the very least their cheap signings have been as good if not better than Shark has at ~$5 mil per season. Then there's Arrieta who I think is in line for a regression but until that point he's been the cubs best pitcher this season who they got in return for Feldman.

I have no problem with them keeping Shark as he's a decent pitcher. But I really don't get this outrage for someone who's arguably been built up to something he's not. He's not Clayton Kershaw. He's not Felix Hernandez. He's more like Madison Bumgarner who signed a 6 year $35.56 million deal in 2012. Granted the Giants bought out more of his arbitration. However, even the years at the end of his normal FA period would only be $12 mil/season which is substantially lower than the $17 mil/season they offered Shark. Gio Gonzalez who's also been a better pitcher than Shark over the past 3 years that pays him $12 mil/year after his typical arbitration period. AJ Burnett has gotten $16.5 mil the past 2 seasons on the final years of the giant deal he got from the Yankees and is making $15 mil this year.

You don't get better by over paying people. Jordan Zimmermann becomes a FA in 2016. Mat Latos is a FA in 2016. Doug Fister is a FA in 2016. Johnny Cueto is a FA in 2016. Yu Darvish is a FA in 2017. Kris Medlen is a FA in 2016. David Price is a FA in 2016. Max Scherzer is a FA in 2015. Stephen Strasburg is a FA in 2017. Those are all options that have been better than Shark the past 2.5 years. James Shields is a FA in 2015. Jon Lester is a FA in 2015. Francisco Liriano is a FA in 2015. Rick Porcello is a FA in 2016. Those options have been within range of being as good as Shark.

So there are numerous options even if some of the guys above re-sign. And that's before you even talk about what they get in return.

And it all goes back to the Cubs have signed SQUAT! So to think that they will magically sign any of these pitchers is a stretch. Need I remind you that all of the pitchers you have just listed, all also fall into the teams that coincidentally will be looking for pitching by that time too. The Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox who all have deeper pockets than the Cubs. By that time, you might as well throw in Philly, Frisco and the Rangers also.

As far as Arrieta and Hammel pitching equal to or better than Shark, they are also projects that panned out for now. If they were great pitchers prior to this year, the Cubs never would have signed either of them.
 

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Thanks... so your ok with pretty much keeping rotation as is with samardzija arrieta wood jackson and prob. a rookie or low/med cost FA for a few years
Since hoyerstein started overhauling the MiLB system and trading low priced FA at the trade deadline for future talent, the pitching has gotten better. The starting pitching was decent last season but the bullpen blew chunks. This season that situation has sorted itself out. I don't mind trying a few farm arms as late callups to see if they may be a fit. The one I do question more than others is Jackson. I know he is durable but I would like to see more quality starts. These pitchers will all look better when the offensive production gets better. I don't see as many big name FA off season signings working out as they did years ago. The game is changing.
 
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beckdawg

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How many of them hit the market in todays age? Also, lets not compare Shark who is just coming into his prime to one year wonders that went right back to their norm in the second half. You go to the playoffs. you want bulldogs. Guys who throw hard and can shut down an offense. Its why people went way to far with Travis Wood being the next great thing. The Cubs trade Shark they are taking more of a risk then they sign him. Trading Shark is saying you will sign a big time pitcher. that is not a given and with our team is a lot harder then you think. No, you shouldnt give Shark the world but lets not act like trading him is no big deal. As much as people praised the Garza trade, it comes down to CJ Edwards. Yes, we are getting service time out of Grimm and Ramirez but middle inning bullpen guys are never worth a starter. Olt is what I thought he was and it comes down to Edwards. He becomes nothing then you netted very little for Garza. I am ok with the Garza trade because he wanted a 100 million dollar contract and the market wasnt going to give it to him. They will give it to Shark.

The point isn't that Shark is a bad pitcher. He's not. He's one of the 30 best pitchers likely. But he's not a top 15 pitcher. He's just not. And paying him more than $17 mil per year is paying him like he's a top 15 pitcher. As for how many pitchers hit the market, Sanchez did. Shields almost assuredly will. Grienke did. Tanaka and Darvish did though admittedly they are more special cases. Cliff Lee hit FA. Sabathia did. So, you're not talking about nobody's here. As for the players I mentioned being "one year wonders," that was over 2.5 year period with FIP being what I sorted on which in fairness favors Shark more than ERA.

I'm not going to get into the Shark debate with you because I know where you stand. But, it's completely fair for people to question Shark as a top tier pitcher. You talk about bulldogs in the playoffs. Where was Shark in the 2nd half of last year? That Shark doesn't get your team to the playoffs let alone win you when you are there. Where was Shark in the first half of 2012? He had a 4.71 ERA. That shark has you out of the playoffs before the trade deadline. Isolated incidents maybe but I bring that up because he has a 5.45 ERA in june. As for coming into the prime of his career, that's pure speculation. I get the idea that he has low miles on his arm and thus he will pitch longer than a lot of guys. But that's more a theory than a proven concept. I have talked about this before but the Indians pre-moneyball had a database that tracked players and determined 29 to be the typical peak performance year. So, it's entirely possible it's all down hill from here for Shark like it is for any other player.

Again, I get the appeal of Shark and I'm not even saying you're wrong that the best is still ahead for him. However, I'm saying it is a gamble not a sure thing. That in particular describe Shark. You're gambling that he's finally going to start putting together full seasons like his 2.58 ERA 2nd half 2012 and his 2.83 ERA 1st half this year rather than the poor halves of years from 2012, 2013 and June this year. My issue is people act like he's already proven that when he hasn't. If I'm going to give more than $17 mil a year to player I'd sure as hell want to see more consistency.

However, you're talking about a potential Price level return for a player who's already turned down fair market value to sign him long term. Throwing more money at him is a act of desperation not a sound baseball decision. The Padres weren't desperate to keep Latos and turned it into Yonder Alonso and Yasmani Grandal who are starting for them as well as being able to trade Rizzo for Cashner to essentially replace Latos. I'm guessing they are happy with the decision. The Rays dealt Shields for an even more impressive haul. I am betting they are happy with their return.

Basically what people seem to be saying is they don't have faith in the front office to identify proper players in return for a trade and/or the ability to find quality returns in FA which frankly is pretty silly. Arreita and Strop for 1/2 a season of Feldman looks like a steal right now. Hendricks and Villanueva for 1/2 a season Dempster who retired 1 year later doesn't seem amazing since Hendricks isn't a toolsy pitcher. However, all he did last year was win the cubs minor league pitcher of the year award with a 1.85 ERA in AA and 2.48 ERA in AAA and will likely be one of the first guys called up to replace Shark/Hammel. Vizcaino has been some what of a disappointment given he's been injured. However, since being back he had a 1.00 ERA in A+ with 10.00 k/9, a 2.63 ERA in AA with 10.54 k/9. You then have Grimm and Ramirez who've been very good out of the pen with Edwards being a question mark given his shoulder. That being said the returns have been decent.

If you look at the track record of who they've gone after in FA pitching and who they've signed they've arguably got to be the best in the majors in that category since Theo came on board. Maholm, Feldman and Hammel have all be incredibly cheap steals. They targeted Ryu, Darvish, and Tanaka as posted players they failed to land. They also targeted Sanchez and missed out. In fairness, Jackson and Veras have been pretty terrible. But you also got guys like Wright who've been quite good and given a typical failure rate in FA they are far exceeding what should be considered decent especially when you consider the total money they've invested there.

In other words, they've earned the right for people to trust them rather than be desperate to keep the players they have that have shown anything decent. It's not like they were the early 2000 royals trading Beltran for John Buck, Mark Teahen and Mike Wood plus cash or Dejesus for Justin Marks and Vin Mazzaro or Damon for Roberto Hernandez, Angel Berroa and A.J. Hinch or Jermaine Dye for Neifi Perez.
 

SilenceS

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The point isn't that Shark is a bad pitcher. He's not. He's one of the 30 best pitchers likely. But he's not a top 15 pitcher. He's just not. And paying him more than $17 mil per year is paying him like he's a top 15 pitcher. As for how many pitchers hit the market, Sanchez did. Shields almost assuredly will. Grienke did. Tanaka and Darvish did though admittedly they are more special cases. Cliff Lee hit FA. Sabathia did. So, you're not talking about nobody's here. As for the players I mentioned being "one year wonders," that was over 2.5 year period with FIP being what I sorted on which in fairness favors Shark more than ERA.

I'm not going to get into the Shark debate with you because I know where you stand. But, it's completely fair for people to question Shark as a top tier pitcher. You talk about bulldogs in the playoffs. Where was Shark in the 2nd half of last year? That Shark doesn't get your team to the playoffs let alone win you when you are there. Where was Shark in the first half of 2012? He had a 4.71 ERA. That shark has you out of the playoffs before the trade deadline. Isolated incidents maybe but I bring that up because he has a 5.45 ERA in june. As for coming into the prime of his career, that's pure speculation. I get the idea that he has low miles on his arm and thus he will pitch longer than a lot of guys. But that's more a theory than a proven concept. I have talked about this before but the Indians pre-moneyball had a database that tracked players and determined 29 to be the typical peak performance year. So, it's entirely possible it's all down hill from here for Shark like it is for any other player.

Again, I get the appeal of Shark and I'm not even saying you're wrong that the best is still ahead for him. However, I'm saying it is a gamble not a sure thing. That in particular describe Shark. You're gambling that he's finally going to start putting together full seasons like his 2.58 ERA 2nd half 2012 and his 2.83 ERA 1st half this year rather than the poor halves of years from 2012, 2013 and June this year. My issue is people act like he's already proven that when he hasn't. If I'm going to give more than $17 mil a year to player I'd sure as hell want to see more consistency.

However, you're talking about a potential Price level return for a player who's already turned down fair market value to sign him long term. Throwing more money at him is a act of desperation not a sound baseball decision. The Padres weren't desperate to keep Latos and turned it into Yonder Alonso and Yasmani Grandal who are starting for them as well as being able to trade Rizzo for Cashner to essentially replace Latos. I'm guessing they are happy with the decision. The Rays dealt Shields for an even more impressive haul. I am betting they are happy with their return.

Basically what people seem to be saying is they don't have faith in the front office to identify proper players in return for a trade and/or the ability to find quality returns in FA which frankly is pretty silly. Arreita and Strop for 1/2 a season of Feldman looks like a steal right now. Hendricks and Villanueva for 1/2 a season Dempster who retired 1 year later doesn't seem amazing since Hendricks isn't a toolsy pitcher. However, all he did last year was win the cubs minor league pitcher of the year award with a 1.85 ERA in AA and 2.48 ERA in AAA and will likely be one of the first guys called up to replace Shark/Hammel. Vizcaino has been some what of a disappointment given he's been injured. However, since being back he had a 1.00 ERA in A+ with 10.00 k/9, a 2.63 ERA in AA with 10.54 k/9. You then have Grimm and Ramirez who've been very good out of the pen with Edwards being a question mark given his shoulder. That being said the returns have been decent.

If you look at the track record of who they've gone after in FA pitching and who they've signed they've arguably got to be the best in the majors in that category since Theo came on board. Maholm, Feldman and Hammel have all be incredibly cheap steals. They targeted Ryu, Darvish, and Tanaka as posted players they failed to land. They also targeted Sanchez and missed out. In fairness, Jackson and Veras have been pretty terrible. But you also got guys like Wright who've been quite good and given a typical failure rate in FA they are far exceeding what should be considered decent especially when you consider the total money they've invested there.

In other words, they've earned the right for people to trust them rather than be desperate to keep the players they have that have shown anything decent. It's not like they were the early 2000 royals trading Beltran for John Buck, Mark Teahen and Mike Wood plus cash or Dejesus for Justin Marks and Vin Mazzaro or Damon for Roberto Hernandez, Angel Berroa and A.J. Hinch or Jermaine Dye for Neifi Perez.

See, this is where we differ. I dont trust them pulling a big time FA pitcher. I just dont. It has nothing to do with Theo and them. I just have seen nothing that Ricketts will step up as an owner. Again, to this date, Ricketts has not shown it. You can speculate all you want that he will but he wont. Also, my problem is why if we signed Shark is that the only pitcher we are going to sign who is front of the line? Even, if you gave him the 20 million and paid another 20 million for an ace. Whats the problem? We arent small market. The Cubs future relies heavily on the bats in our farm that will be cost controlled for a long time. Castro and Rizzo contract are reasonable even till the end. I dont get if we pay Shark, we cant pay anyone else. The fucking Reds paid Votto, BP, and Homer Bailey with little problem. The Cubs may sign a bat or two, but they are mostly going to sink or swim with the bats in the farm.

Look at this year, if the Cubs would have sign a couple of bats where would they be?

This is their season so far, Cubs were 13-27 in their first 40 games, 21-19 in their next 40, now off to a 2-0 start for the 3rd quarter.

This team probably would actually contend to get to the playoffs and not harm the farm system one bit. Now, if Shark is flipped, you are coming back next year with a rotation of Wood, Jackson, and Arrieta. Fill in the rest. Yet again, you can not assume they will sign a big FA because they havent pretty much in Cubs history. Also, eventually, the team has to move forward and not just keep flipping for the sake of flipping.

Oh and Shark was not happy last year. His second half slide occurred exactly after he became vocal of what the Cubs FO was doing. He should have probably handled it better, but I get his frustration. Rizzo expressed frustration with ownership and the city earlier this year. These players have emotions and it can affect them.

To sum it up, Im not saying giving Shark this monster of a contract, but with the way pitchers are dropping like flies. It would be nice to have a steady 200 inning guy who doesnt have a ton of mileage on his arm. I would give Shark the ball in any game, in any situation.
 

Captain Obvious

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See, this is where we differ. I dont trust them pulling a big time FA pitcher. I just dont. It has nothing to do with Theo and them. I just have seen nothing that Ricketts will step up as an owner. Again, to this date, Ricketts has not shown it. You can speculate all you want that he will but he wont. Also, my problem is why if we signed Shark is that the only pitcher we are going to sign who is front of the line? Even, if you gave him the 20 million and paid another 20 million for an ace. Whats the problem? We arent small market. The Cubs future relies heavily on the bats in our farm that will be cost controlled for a long time. Castro and Rizzo contract are reasonable even till the end. I dont get if we pay Shark, we cant pay anyone else. The fucking Reds paid Votto, BP, and Homer Bailey with little problem. The Cubs may sign a bat or two, but they are mostly going to sink or swim with the bats in the farm.

Look at this year, if the Cubs would have sign a couple of bats where would they be?

This is their season so far, Cubs were 13-27 in their first 40 games, 21-19 in their next 40, now off to a 2-0 start for the 3rd quarter.

This team probably would actually contend to get to the playoffs and not harm the farm system one bit. Now, if Shark is flipped, you are coming back next year with a rotation of Wood, Jackson, and Arrieta. Fill in the rest. Yet again, you can not assume they will sign a big FA because they havent pretty much in Cubs history. Also, eventually, the team has to move forward and not just keep flipping for the sake of flipping.

Oh and Shark was not happy last year. His second half slide occurred exactly after he became vocal of what the Cubs FO was doing. He should have probably handled it better, but I get his frustration. Rizzo expressed frustration with ownership and the city earlier this year. These players have emotions and it can affect them.

To sum it up, Im not saying giving Shark this monster of a contract, but with the way pitchers are dropping like flies. It would be nice to have a steady 200 inning guy who doesnt have a ton of mileage on his arm. I would give Shark the ball in any game, in any situation.

I don't get why people say it is the Ricketts' doings as to why we don't get FAs. That makes no sense to me. Why would he be paying Theo, Hoyer, etc. if he is going to go ahead and be the one deciding these things?

If you look at the past few years, it's not like adding a superstar or two would have made much difference. These teams have been bad. The Cubs had their hands tied by Soriano's contract and still do this year. When Theo and Co. came in, the farm system, scouting and development, etc. was in very bad shape. They had to fix that. They had an incentive to wait to fix the MLB club, draft picks and the draft money. I'd say it's worth it considering that we now have Bryant and Schwarber as a result of that and they figure to be in our line up for many years at a lower cost than any FA. I don't see anyone complaining about Bryant or Schwarber.

Sure, they could have signed a couple of bats. But then you have their money on the books and they prohibit the prospects from coming up. It's like knowing you're going to get a home cooked meal tomorrow and then going out right before and paying for a more expensive meal. What's the point?

I get the allure of the big time FA. But they very rarely live up to their contracts. I love what they are doing in getting cheaper players and getting the great production out of them. I'm more than okay with that continuing even as we get better because they are getting great deals out of these trades and their output will not continue.

Yeah, the Reds paid Votto, BP, and Bailey. Do you think a 40 year old Joey Votto is going to be worth 25 million? I don't. The Phillips deal is better, but his offensive numbers have been nonexistent this year and last. They're paying him 11 million this year to have a .700 OPS. That's pretty shitty. As for Bailey, he's had 1 season in which he has worth more than 3 wins. In 5 years he'll be making 23 million. For a guy whose career ERA and FIP are both over 4? They are going to have their hands severely tied at the end of these contracts. That's what we want to avoid.

It's important to remember that you're paying for future performance, not past performance.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we have 31 million on the books for next year. We should be able to sign Shark, sign another solid SP, and have money to play with. But just because we have that, doesn't mean that we should overpay for anyone. Just because we have the money, doesn't mean we should be stupid with it.
 

beckdawg

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See, this is where we differ. I dont trust them pulling a big time FA pitcher. I just dont. It has nothing to do with Theo and them. I just have seen nothing that Ricketts will step up as an owner. Again, to this date, Ricketts has not shown it. You can speculate all you want that he will but he wont. Also, my problem is why if we signed Shark is that the only pitcher we are going to sign who is front of the line? Even, if you gave him the 20 million and paid another 20 million for an ace. Whats the problem? We arent small market. The Cubs future relies heavily on the bats in our farm that will be cost controlled for a long time. Castro and Rizzo contract are reasonable even till the end. I dont get if we pay Shark, we cant pay anyone else. The fucking Reds paid Votto, BP, and Homer Bailey with little problem. The Cubs may sign a bat or two, but they are mostly going to sink or swim with the bats in the farm.

Edit: This got hella wordy so I'm going to give a summary to start and if you want to read the detailed version you can

Summary:
They didn't land pitching because they lacked financial backing
They now have around $60 mil payroll going toward 2015 if you assume shark is gone
They likely still have $110 mil to spend though possibly more if you add in WGN tv contract and roll over
At $110 mil they have $50 mil to spend next year which could allow them to spend $40 mil on two starters.
At $40 mil on two starters they could probably get one of Lester/Scherzer and a decent guy sub-$15 mil to fill in for Hammel
That would leave $10 mil to add a CF which you could likely get someone like Span for.

End Summary

Why didn't the cubs land pitchers that ended up good or they that they targeted? Maybe you can argue preference to play for a winner but let's be realistic here, it's almost certainly money in all cases. Sanchez was ready to sign for the cubs until the Tigers came in over the top of them with a better money offer. Tanaka chose the Yankees because they gave him an extra year and more money. Darvish was the cubs being outbid in posting. Same goes for Ryu. You ask what's changed? I was going to go into a systematic breakdown of how their salary was limited in 2012-2014 and had it wrote out but **** it, we all know that story and I'm sure you don't honestly give a shit about the depth I went into it. Suffice to say the were spending a lot of money on guys like Soriano, Marmol and Zambrano from 2012-this year. So, I'm just gonna look at what they have committed for 2015 because that's really the only thing that is relevant.

Assuming they trade Shark, he's probably another $10ish mil in terms of arbitration they wont have. Right now you're looking at $11 mil on Jackson, roughly $7 mil on Castro, roughly $5 mil on Rizzzo, roughly $2.5 mil on Soler, $1.2 on Gerardo Concepcion, $1.5 mil on Sweeney, $150k on a buyout for Veras, and $500k buy out on Fujikawa. All told that comes out to $29.16 before arbitration cases. From there we can probably guess Vizcaino, Castillo, Arreita, Wood, Strop will make around $15 mil given what similar players made last year. Kalish, Ruggiano, Barney, Coghlan, and Baker are potential non-tenders/trade candidates. Valbuena, Wright, and Russell also could be potential trade pieces but you might also want to keep some of them. For the sake of argument let's call those guys or their replacement's to be $15 mil. You also have Bonifacio, Hammel, Schierholtz, and Villanueva as FAs to replace on the 40 man as well as possibly Wada(not sure if he's a FA or what).

Going into FA you have roughly $60 mil in payroll committed with most likely a $110 mil limit and you have to add a RF(Schierholtz), a CF(Bonifacio), 2 starters(Shark, Hammel), ad possibly some bullpen pieces though given their wealth of relievers in AAA that may be done internally. They could in theory add some short term players at 3B/2B until midseason(or earlier) callups of Bryant, Alcantara, and Baez. You also might want to add a better LF since Lake has been kind of ass there. Let's say $20 mil/season is the starting point for the top tier starters. You could add 2 of those and still have $10 mil to play with. That's before you even talk about the roughly $20 mil they didn't spend this year and have said they could potentially roll that into next year. That's also before we talk about an increase from the WGN portion of tv rights. In this scenario, the Rickett's don't have to "step up." You can do all of that with no more money than they've spent in 2012-2013.

The difference between that and say this year when they had almost nothing more than they offered Tanaka is a stark contrast. They offered him $23 mil and that appears to literally be everything they had left because if you add in the $17 mil difference between him and what they gave Hammel that puts you right in range for the $110 mil payroll they appear to have been working with the past 2 years. $23 mil vs $50 mil and potentially more is a world apart. Even if you're talking about Lester and Scherzer at say $25 mil a year you can probably get one of those two and still have money for someone like Beckett, Hammel(again), Shields, Wandy, Peavy, Liriano, Masterson, Maholm, Burnett, and Edinson Volquez. Obviously those second set of guys is a wide range of money. But, I think $15 mil/season likely should cover all of them considering none is an ace and Garza without draft pick compensation was only $13 mil/season. From there, you could probably sign someone like Span for $6-7 mil/season as a short term fix until Almora is ready. You're likely talking about one of Bryant/Alcantara in the OF as well leaving LF as one of the biggest trouble spot left and you would have $5+ mil to spend without exceeding $110 mil. If they end up getting more money from roll over or the WGN contract that's gravy. There is potentially the elephant in the room that the cubs don't want to give out NTC's/opt outs. With that, I honestly don't have answers for because it's hard to say whether that matters enough to take less money or whether the cubs will change their opinion. But from a purely money standpoint, the cubs should be able to compete with anyone next season for a top tier pitcher.

Now I know where you're going to go with this post. Why not keep shark and then sign one of those guys? Well for one the money doesn't match up quite the same unless you're saying Shark is as good as Lester/Scherzer which seems like a stretch to me but whatever. I mean I agree he has potential to be but he's not shown it and they have. To get him and one of those two for less than $40 mil seems unlikely to me if Shark is already turning down $17 mil so he's definitely not in the same grouping as the second set of guys monetarily wise. An argument could be made to say **** it and roll with him through arbitration. That would work money wise but it still leaves you in the situation where he's a FA after next year and you're not going to be able to sign him for under $17 mil.

And honestly, the very fact that the Ricketts haven't "stepped up" should be the very reason people give a shit about them over spending on Shark. If they had proven to be the dodgers ownership or a Stienbrenner then fine, over pay him and keep the asset. He helps you win now and is more of a known quantity. And in that case, if he blows up in your face, you have the money to fix it. However, in the current realm of the cubs, if you have Shark making $20 mil/season as say a 4 ERA pitcher or where ever you would put him if things go south that really hurts what they can do if we assume $110 mil is what they have to spend right now. It puts them in the very case that Soriano did. And while Soriano wasn't really a killer performance wise to say Marmol or Zambrano he was playing well below $19 mil a year which meant that was more money they didn't have to spend on Sanchez and instead signed Jackson and we know how that went.

It's the same situation for Shark. If you pay him more than $17 mil now and 29 is his peak performance, where are you in the 4-5th year of the 5 year deal they offered him? Hopefully, you're talking about some of the great prospects panning out but they aren't going to do it alone. And if Shark is more of a 3/4 starter at 33-34 and you're counting on Edwards as your TOR with less money to spend you're probably going to end up being good enough to get knocked out in the first round of the playoffs. And if he's making 1/5th of the payroll when we're currently talking about players on cheap deals(mainly rizzo/castro) making ~1/2 of the payroll that leaves you $20-30 mil to play with to fill in holes that prospects leave. The only way that changes is if the mythical revenue streams finally open. But who knows when/if that will happen. And those cheap players are quickly going to start being less cheap. Castro and Rizzo start making $11 mil in 2019. You're talking about a roughly $16 mil increase from this year. And while you will have some cheaper hitters via prospects, it's not like the cubs have a ton of high priced hitting right now. Schierholtz is the only other hitter besides Castro making $5 mil+. Bonifacio, Barney and Ruggiano are the only other hitters making $2 mil+

In fairness, if Lester/Scherzer don't pan out you're in the same situation. The difference is in who you're prepared to gamble on. And even if you want to toss in the concepts of the Yankees coming over top as they need pitching help they will be paying a 50% penalty on adding players because they are well over the luxury tax for the 5th straight year. So, $25 mil to them becomes $37.5 mil. Not sure what the Dodgers will pay though they paid 17.5% this year might be 20%. The rest of the teams were under the threshold so they would only pay 12.5% if they went over. At $25 mil/season, that likely includes the Angels, Tigers, Phillies and possibly the Giants, Red Sox and Rangers depending on what they do with guys becoming FAs from their teams.
 

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I don't get why people say it is the Ricketts' doings as to why we don't get FAs. That makes no sense to me. Why would he be paying Theo, Hoyer, etc. if he is going to go ahead and be the one deciding these things? ...
Ricketts sets the budget as the owner. If the budget is set low then it limits what the FO can spend.
 

CSF77

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Pretty much sums it up.

Theo is in charge of the business ops budget.

You have the business ops that deals with the park, fan issues like food etc, property tax, ads, revenues etc. all of the boring stuff.

Then the Baseball ops which deals with the 40 man roster and development.

Right now the business is soaking some resource for the park. You would have to expect some nest egging going on to pay for future work. That would be expected with a 500 mil over haul planned.

I'm concerned with the cash Theo has spent. Paying Z to pitch for the fish. Paying sori to hit for the Yanks. Not really a huge fan of those moves. Signing Jackson. Again not a fan of that move.

I can not blame him for not winning on Tanaka etc. picking Soler over Cespedes to me felt like a value deal. Same cash longer control vs making the team better.

Letting A-Ram walk. Again another cost cut. And so on.

I'm worried that the will not be able to retain what they are building right now. I'm under the opinion that they are creating a long term resource of cost effective talent. When the Rizzo's and Castro's and the Bryant's and the Baez's start to get into the F/A's the Ricketts will use them to reload.

That has been the game plan and I see little change.
 

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The Cubs have spent 19.5 million the past 2 years on two relievers and a starter that combined pitched 50.1 inning for the Cubs. They spent 4 years 52 million on Jackson because Sanchez used them and they over reacted. The rest of the pitcher they whiffed on they werent even close. No one was close to the Rangers in the Darvish deal. Tanaka was a pipe dream. The Cubs were going to have to offer a good bit more than any other team and they werent even close on that one. People keep saying spend wisely. Who are they going to spend on? If they trade out Shark, who is going to replace him. You think the Cubs will truly sign someone because let me tell you it is a fucking long shot that any of our minor league pitchers becomes number 3's let alone TOR. People keep trying to play virtual GM and I am trying to tell you what is in front of us now. What has happened up until now. Yet again, what if the Cubs get an offense next year and then there is no pitching. What do you do then? I give them credit for the one year wonders, but that wont stay the norm.
 

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I'm not sold on Shark being an ace. He is a 2 at best now. Arreita has been as good and is going into arb1 next year.

I believe they should invest into a proven ace next year. Not Masterson because I feel that is a non proven and a buy low option. Lester is the guy I would go after. He has a proven track record in the toughest div in baseball. Not to mention there is history going on with the front office.

The rest of the rotation you drop Hammel add Hendricks. Jackson you are stuck. Wood not sure yet. He has been Jeckyl and Hyde. Arrieta has been on #2 quality ever sense he has had that hard slider. Nasty pitch. Late brake coming in at 92 MPH. Killing hitters with it.

Anyways they add a LHP at the top then go with Arrieta then Wood. Let Jackson and Hendricks battle for 4/5. Should be fine in the reg season. I would be concerned in a short series but they would have to be a contender going into July before even thinking they would add a 3rd SP that would be a play off option.


Regardless the first step is getting the O respectable. That should start to take shape next year. Offseason they need to go after Lester if he goes F/A. Cubs are not a bad option for him IMO. Easier league. Same front office.
 

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If the Cubs were in a short series with what they have I would feel best with Arrieta, Shark than Hammel. Wood and Jackson would not be called to start in a 5 game.

Shark has had little run support and I don't feel good about him matching up against a ace.

Arrieta has flirted with no hitters back to back. He has proven that he can shut a team down on any game.

Hammel wins games by keeping his WHIP around 1.00. He is not bad in a short series but I believe he is performing above his talent level this year. Seeing is June ERA around 4.00 is more fitting of his talent.

If this team was good the rotation would be it's downfall in a series.
 

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Let me clarify, if we can get a huge haul for Shark and the Cubs will sign a replacement of equal or better value then I am fine. I just question them actually signing someone of equal or greater value.
 

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The Cubs have spent 19.5 million the past 2 years on two relievers and a starter that combined pitched 50.1 inning for the Cubs. They spent 4 years 52 million on Jackson because Sanchez used them and they over reacted. The rest of the pitcher they whiffed on they werent even close. No one was close to the Rangers in the Darvish deal. Tanaka was a pipe dream. The Cubs were going to have to offer a good bit more than any other team and they werent even close on that one. People keep saying spend wisely. Who are they going to spend on? If they trade out Shark, who is going to replace him. You think the Cubs will truly sign someone because let me tell you it is a fucking long shot that any of our minor league pitchers becomes number 3's let alone TOR. People keep trying to play virtual GM and I am trying to tell you what is in front of us now. What has happened up until now. Yet again, what if the Cubs get an offense next year and then there is no pitching. What do you do then? I give them credit for the one year wonders, but that wont stay the norm.

Your assumption is that they can sign Shark. I mean for all we know he want's $25 mil per year. Before the season he supposedly wanted Bailey money. They offered him $500k less than Bailey money and he turned them down. Are we seriously suggesting he's holding out for $500k a year and willing to go through all this trade crap rather than stay in a town he says he loves all over a measly $500k? At this point, I'm guessing he is asking for well more than $17 mil or at least enough that he's not coming down to that. And given what I've suggested about his performance/pay vs other players with better performance and what they received the cubs are very unlikely to move up from $17 mil and rightly so.

I don't see that Tanaka was the pipe dream you make it out to be. The cubs reportedly offered 6 years $120 mil plus the $20 mil posting fee. The yankees gave him 7 years $155 mil plus the posting fee. You're talking about roughly $2.14 mil annually difference. The cubs reportedly offered Sanchez 5 years $77.5 mil. He signed for 5 years $80 mil least according to ESPN. I think they are figuring the 5 years plus the $5 mil buyout option year. rather than counting the 6th year. Either way, for at least the first 5 years of the deal $77.5 mil over 5 years is more money than he actually received(5 years $75 mil). The only difference was the 6th option year. My guess is that's what sealed the deal for the Tigers and for whatever reason the cubs chose not to match or even if they had he wanted to go back to the tigers vs playing for a rebuild. On Ryu, the cubs were around $6 mil short posting fee with the old rules. you're correct about Darvish but clearly the Rangers placed far more value on him than anyone else because the cubs were supposedly second and all the other teams were in the $25 mil range if memory serves.

To suggest they can't sign people is rather absurd. I clearly showed they had likely $50 mil to spend if the so choose. That's more than each of the past 3 years including the $40ish they ended up spending in 2013 with far more needs. You may not even be able to use the argument that they are shit and no one will want to play for a shit team anymore. After a 9-17 April they are 27-29 and that's before you even mention the fact that they have good young hitters ready to reach the majors.

As for who they can sign, why can't they sign Scherzer? The cubs legitimately can offer him $25 mil if they choose with no need to involve the Ricketts adding payroll. That would only put them in the $85 mil payroll range. Who's realistically going to offer him more than that? Remember the yankees are paying a 50% penalty on every player they sign which means at $25 mil they are paying $37.5. Dodgers would be the other big guess but they are already paying Grienke and Kershaw $55 mil for the foreseeable future. You're other big market teams will likely be in to some extent talking about the Tigers, Red Sox, Angels, Rangers, Giants, and Phillies. However, many of those teams are already heavily leveraged in starters. Giants owe Cain and Lincecum $49 mil next year. Phillies owe Lee and Hamels $49 mil. The Tigers are paying Verlander and Sanchez $44 mil next year. I can see an argument for the Angels given that they are only paying Weaver and Wilson $37 mil. I can also see an argument for the Red Sox but they also have a boat load of high minors starters that are well regarded so they also could do nothing other than bring back Lester at a similar $25 mil. And finally you have the Rangers. I'd say they are a possibility but you're also talking about adding $25 mil to a $133.5 mil payroll with basically nothing coming off the books unless they let Rios walk. Also keep in mind at the moment of those teams only the Cubs, Red Sox, Rangers, and Philly can sign him with out also giving up a first round pick. Minor issue obviously but it's additional cost.

Perhaps Scherzer doesn't want to play for the cubs for whatever reason. We don't know that now. But the fact remains they can compete monetarily. Also, Why can't they sign a second tier starter like Shields with him? He probably will get a QO from the Royals because they are likely to lose him. And with his 3.93 ERA this year you're likely looking at a similar contract to what Garza got with a QO on him. Point here being, there's any number of guys they can sign all of which don't require any more Ricketts money than 2012/2013.

As for being lucky with cheap signings, it's been 3 years straight. At some point it stops being luck and starts being the thing. How many years did Dave Duncan turn shit into gold for the cardinals? Good pitching coaches work wonders. And that's without consideration of giving someone like Grimm or Ramirez a chance at the rotation. I'd personally be a bit dubious about Grimm in the rotation but he does have a 3.50 ERA and is only 25. Ramirez has been a revelation in the pen with a 1.25 ERA and is also 25. Both were starters coming up in the minors. As well you also have rather large issue of what they get when they trade Shark. You're almost assuredly talking about at least a AA pitcher who might be MLB ready by next year.
 

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I want Tom Seaver or Sandy Koufax on the mound in the heat of the post season. #1 or "ace" may not mean anything to you, but I don't want a #3 starting game 1 of the NLCS. That's why aces are shown the money.

LOL....you're talking about the NLCS and the post season in reference to a team that can't win more than it loses.

ok, to make you happy ill ask the question this way because I guess you don't understand what im asking or your just avoiding it with the rant about ACE and NO.1 starter...

would you be ok with them signing samardzija for 20+ mil knowing that for the next few years the cubs most likely wont sign anyone close to that amount and having them have 4 other starters that would be in his lesser ? meaning that he most likely will be their best starter..

See, you still don't get that it makes zero difference. Where does it say that the highest paid pitcher HAS to be your best pitcher? Did I miss a new MLB rule that was passed? You need 4 or 5 guys that can do the job starting....you hit spring training and you sort out things like the rotation, middle relief and closer there. And they're not sorted by price range....or at least they shouldn't be.

Going with your reasoning.....the Cubs #1 guy right this second would be Jackson and #5 Arrieta.
 

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LOL....you're talking about the NLCS and the post season in reference to a team that can't win more than it loses.
Wrong. I'm talking about what an ace is and why an ace gets paid the big bucks. It's irrelevant as to whether it's the Cubs or the Yankees.
 

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Wrong. I'm talking about what an ace is and why an ace gets paid the big bucks. It's irrelevant as to whether it's the Cubs or the Yankees.

Oh, I see....so the Cub's big bucks "ace" right at this moment is Edwin Jackson.

:obama:
 

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