Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel traded to Oakland Athletics for Addison Russell plus

SilenceS

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Your assumption is that they can sign Shark. I mean for all we know he want's $25 mil per year. Before the season he supposedly wanted Bailey money. They offered him $500k less than Bailey money and he turned them down. Are we seriously suggesting he's holding out for $500k a year and willing to go through all this trade crap rather than stay in a town he says he loves all over a measly $500k? At this point, I'm guessing he is asking for well more than $17 mil or at least enough that he's not coming down to that. And given what I've suggested about his performance/pay vs other players with better performance and what they received the cubs are very unlikely to move up from $17 mil and rightly so.

I don't see that Tanaka was the pipe dream you make it out to be. The cubs reportedly offered 6 years $120 mil plus the $20 mil posting fee. The yankees gave him 7 years $155 mil plus the posting fee. You're talking about roughly $2.14 mil annually difference. The cubs reportedly offered Sanchez 5 years $77.5 mil. He signed for 5 years $80 mil least according to ESPN. I think they are figuring the 5 years plus the $5 mil buyout option year. rather than counting the 6th year. Either way, for at least the first 5 years of the deal $77.5 mil over 5 years is more money than he actually received(5 years $75 mil). The only difference was the 6th option year. My guess is that's what sealed the deal for the Tigers and for whatever reason the cubs chose not to match or even if they had he wanted to go back to the tigers vs playing for a rebuild. On Ryu, the cubs were around $6 mil short posting fee with the old rules. you're correct about Darvish but clearly the Rangers placed far more value on him than anyone else because the cubs were supposedly second and all the other teams were in the $25 mil range if memory serves.

To suggest they can't sign people is rather absurd. I clearly showed they had likely $50 mil to spend if the so choose. That's more than each of the past 3 years including the $40ish they ended up spending in 2013 with far more needs. You may not even be able to use the argument that they are shit and no one will want to play for a shit team anymore. After a 9-17 April they are 27-29 and that's before you even mention the fact that they have good young hitters ready to reach the majors.

As for who they can sign, why can't they sign Scherzer? The cubs legitimately can offer him $25 mil if they choose with no need to involve the Ricketts adding payroll. That would only put them in the $85 mil payroll range. Who's realistically going to offer him more than that? Remember the yankees are paying a 50% penalty on every player they sign which means at $25 mil they are paying $37.5. Dodgers would be the other big guess but they are already paying Grienke and Kershaw $55 mil for the foreseeable future. You're other big market teams will likely be in to some extent talking about the Tigers, Red Sox, Angels, Rangers, Giants, and Phillies. However, many of those teams are already heavily leveraged in starters. Giants owe Cain and Lincecum $49 mil next year. Phillies owe Lee and Hamels $49 mil. The Tigers are paying Verlander and Sanchez $44 mil next year. I can see an argument for the Angels given that they are only paying Weaver and Wilson $37 mil. I can also see an argument for the Red Sox but they also have a boat load of high minors starters that are well regarded so they also could do nothing other than bring back Lester at a similar $25 mil. And finally you have the Rangers. I'd say they are a possibility but you're also talking about adding $25 mil to a $133.5 mil payroll with basically nothing coming off the books unless they let Rios walk. Also keep in mind at the moment of those teams only the Cubs, Red Sox, Rangers, and Philly can sign him with out also giving up a first round pick. Minor issue obviously but it's additional cost.

Perhaps Scherzer doesn't want to play for the cubs for whatever reason. We don't know that now. But the fact remains they can compete monetarily. Also, Why can't they sign a second tier starter like Shields with him? He probably will get a QO from the Royals because they are likely to lose him. And with his 3.93 ERA this year you're likely looking at a similar contract to what Garza got with a QO on him. Point here being, there's any number of guys they can sign all of which don't require any more Ricketts money than 2012/2013.

As for being lucky with cheap signings, it's been 3 years straight. At some point it stops being luck and starts being the thing. How many years did Dave Duncan turn shit into gold for the cardinals? Good pitching coaches work wonders. And that's without consideration of giving someone like Grimm or Ramirez a chance at the rotation. I'd personally be a bit dubious about Grimm in the rotation but he does have a 3.50 ERA and is only 25. Ramirez has been a revelation in the pen with a 1.25 ERA and is also 25. Both were starters coming up in the minors. As well you also have rather large issue of what they get when they trade Shark. You're almost assuredly talking about at least a AA pitcher who might be MLB ready by next year.

See, this is where you keep getting lost on my statements. I am talking what they have presently done. You are talking what could happen. Until, it happens, my point is valid. You keep acting like they are going to replace him easily and I am telling you they have whiffed everytime. You can keep saying they were close, but where does close get you? Sanchez completely played the Cubs. That was obvious. Can they sign a Scherzer, Lester, or Shields. **** yea, they have plenty of money. Will they? I lean towards no because they havent gotten it done yet. Until they do, I and others have every right to question the move. Also, you keep talking its the norm that they flip 3 pitchers 3 years in a row. What about Baker, McDonald, Volstad? They have whiffed just as well. Jackson is a huge whiff. Wood has regressed but is probably a little better then he has been. Arrieta is a guy who will have to prove it for more than 3 months. Even if you move Grimm or Ramirez to the rotation. They wont be anywhere near TOR. Vizcaino would have the best chance at that, but his arm would have to prove it can hold up. I just feel that you think it is just so easy to get pitching when every team covets it.

I am going to agree to disagree because until I know the package they get for Shark and who they get to replace him. I will hold off judgement, but until then I will stick with I rather keep Shark.
 

beckdawg

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See, this is where you keep getting lost on my statements. I am talking what they have presently done. You are talking what could happen. Until, it happens, my point is valid. You keep acting like they are going to replace him easily and I am telling you they have whiffed everytime.

And I'm telling you it's an entirely different situation because they have substantially more money and fewer holes than 2013 which was the only year they've had really any money to spend. In order to have signed most of the players mentioned at the prices they inevitably got Ricketts would have had to given them more than $110 mil budget they appear to have. In 2015 it does not matter in the least because with $50 mil on the low end they can afford any player they want with 0 help from him. You also have to remember that after 2012 they were coming off the worst year in since 1981 win% wise. The holes were pretty glaring and to be honest some still haven't been fixed. 3B was ugly then and when Valbuena isn't playing there its pretty ugly now. RF was ugly then and Scherholtz isn't doing much to quell that now. The bullpen is substantially better as is the starting rotation thanks in large part to Wood and Arrieta being better than the Volstads of the 2012 ERA.

Saying your point is valid because of the past assume that you're in the same situation and they clearly aren't. Having to get the extra money you need from Ricketts vs not needing his ok at all is a totally different situation. Perhaps it's an assumption on my part that they need his OK in 2013 but it seems pretty clear given how they have spent that $110 mil payroll is what they were working with and anything more than that they needed his Ok. Point here being, that this coming year it shouldn't matter and if the front office fails to sign someone it's no longer on ownership. It will be on Theo and company.
 

SilenceS

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Its not a different situation. They will have just a many holes. Bryant and Baez are most likely not going to break camp. You are only looking at Alcantara. The OF will be horrendous again unless they sign people. They trade Shark and Hammel there pitching will be worse unless they sign people. The bullpen was always going to be filled up with minor leaguers because thats the best arms we got. Valbuena truly isnt a starter and probably will be traded, so that another hole for the first couple of months.

The Cubs are currently 28th in true payroll. Add in Soriano and they hit closer to the middle. This is the spending since Ricketts bought the team.

2014: $ 92,677,368
2013: $106,837,810
2012: $109,316,000
2011: $134,004,000

Its dropped every year even though they were on the hook for Z and Soriano. You keep acting like 110 is the magic number and you are just pulling that out of nowhere. You have no idea how the inner workings work. Ricketts could very well have to sign off on any money spent. Last year, they said they exhausted every dollar they could. This year its 13 million lower. They could have very easily signed a bat and stayed within your range, but they didnt. Why? They had no one coming up this year for the OF. They knew that. So, were the just being inept at building a team or were they truly tanking? Or, did Ricketts cut the budget again because he hasnt gotten the money he thought he would have coming in. The scoreboard was suppose to be built already. They have done little to no renovations to Wrigley. Also, they are getting cut off extra revenue from the TV contracts.

The Cubs had a ton of flexibility this off season and they did almost nothing. Until they do, Im not going to sit here and pipe dream of what is going to happen.
 

Captain Obvious

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Ricketts sets the budget as the owner. If the budget is set low then it limits what the FO can spend.

I am assuming that the budget remains the same as the last couple of years, not including the $20 mil that is supposedly being rolled over to next year.

Pretty much sums it up.

Theo is in charge of the business ops budget.

You have the business ops that deals with the park, fan issues like food etc, property tax, ads, revenues etc. all of the boring stuff.

Then the Baseball ops which deals with the 40 man roster and development.

Right now the business is soaking some resource for the park. You would have to expect some nest egging going on to pay for future work. That would be expected with a 500 mil over haul planned.

I'm concerned with the cash Theo has spent. Paying Z to pitch for the fish. Paying sori to hit for the Yanks. Not really a huge fan of those moves. Signing Jackson. Again not a fan of that move.

I can not blame him for not winning on Tanaka etc. picking Soler over Cespedes to me felt like a value deal. Same cash longer control vs making the team better.

Letting A-Ram walk. Again another cost cut. And so on.

I'm worried that the will not be able to retain what they are building right now. I'm under the opinion that they are creating a long term resource of cost effective talent. When the Rizzo's and Castro's and the Bryant's and the Baez's start to get into the F/A's the Ricketts will use them to reload.

That has been the game plan and I see little change.

Would you rather have paid Z to play for us? He was garbage. At least we saved $3 mil on that deal. With Soriano we saved $11 mil and got Corey Black who could amount to something, he could not. The point is, what were Z and Sori adding to this team?

With Jackson, it was a solid signing at the time. He was worth 13 wins over the last 4 years. We paid about market value and he is pitching to market value. You can act like it's the worst signing in the world, but it's not.

The Cubs have spent 19.5 million the past 2 years on two relievers and a starter that combined pitched 50.1 inning for the Cubs. They spent 4 years 52 million on Jackson because Sanchez used them and they over reacted. The rest of the pitcher they whiffed on they werent even close. No one was close to the Rangers in the Darvish deal. Tanaka was a pipe dream. The Cubs were going to have to offer a good bit more than any other team and they werent even close on that one. People keep saying spend wisely. Who are they going to spend on? If they trade out Shark, who is going to replace him. You think the Cubs will truly sign someone because let me tell you it is a fucking long shot that any of our minor league pitchers becomes number 3's let alone TOR. People keep trying to play virtual GM and I am trying to tell you what is in front of us now. What has happened up until now. Yet again, what if the Cubs get an offense next year and then there is no pitching. What do you do then? I give them credit for the one year wonders, but that wont stay the norm.

When you only look at the negatives, sure, it's going to look bad. I would love to know how the one year wonders won't stay the norm. It sounds to me like most of what you're saying is unbacked opinions.
 

Captain Obvious

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Its not a different situation. They will have just a many holes. Bryant and Baez are most likely not going to break camp. You are only looking at Alcantara. The OF will be horrendous again unless they sign people. They trade Shark and Hammel there pitching will be worse unless they sign people. The bullpen was always going to be filled up with minor leaguers because thats the best arms we got. Valbuena truly isnt a starter and probably will be traded, so that another hole for the first couple of months.

The Cubs are currently 28th in true payroll. Add in Soriano and they hit closer to the middle. This is the spending since Ricketts bought the team.

2014: $ 92,677,368
2013: $106,837,810
2012: $109,316,000
2011: $134,004,000

Its dropped every year even though they were on the hook for Z and Soriano. You keep acting like 110 is the magic number and you are just pulling that out of nowhere. You have no idea how the inner workings work. Ricketts could very well have to sign off on any money spent. Last year, they said they exhausted every dollar they could. This year its 13 million lower. They could have very easily signed a bat and stayed within your range, but they didnt. Why? They had no one coming up this year for the OF. They knew that. So, were the just being inept at building a team or were they truly tanking? Or, did Ricketts cut the budget again because he hasnt gotten the money he thought he would have coming in. The scoreboard was suppose to be built already. They have done little to no renovations to Wrigley. Also, they are getting cut off extra revenue from the TV contracts.

The Cubs had a ton of flexibility this off season and they did almost nothing. Until they do, Im not going to sit here and pipe dream of what is going to happen.

Okay, the budget is lower. However, what if Tankana had signed with us? Then our payroll would be right back where it was.

Assuming they did add an OFer, would it really have made a difference? This team is farther than 1 player away from being a playoff team.

They are getting cut off extra revenue from the TV contracts? They are supposed to be getting more revenue from the TV...
 

SilenceS

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I am assuming that the budget remains the same as the last couple of years, not including the $20 mil that is supposedly being rolled over to next year.



Would you rather have paid Z to play for us? He was garbage. At least we saved $3 mil on that deal. With Soriano we saved $11 mil and got Corey Black who could amount to something, he could not. The point is, what were Z and Sori adding to this team?

With Jackson, it was a solid signing at the time. He was worth 13 wins over the last 4 years. We paid about market value and he is pitching to market value. You can act like it's the worst signing in the world, but it's not.



When you only look at the negatives, sure, it's going to look bad. I would love to know how the one year wonders won't stay the norm. It sounds to me like most of what you're saying is unbacked opinions.

Sounds like you dont read well. They hit on 3 and they have missed on Baker, McDonald, and Volstad coming back. They also whiffed on two relievers that they spent a good bit of money on. I dont look at the negatives. I look at the whole picture. Sorry, I dont just proclaim every move great and forget the bad.
 

SilenceS

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Okay, the budget is lower. However, what if Tankana had signed with us? Then our payroll would be right back where it was.

Assuming they did add an OFer, would it really have made a difference? This team is farther than 1 player away from being a playoff team.

They are getting cut off extra revenue from the TV contracts? They are supposed to be getting more revenue from the TV...

We werent close to signing Tanaka. lol Also, yes, one or two bats would make this team around .500. I wanted Cruz. He could have been had easily because he was trying to have a prove yourself season. No, I did not think he would be this good but his norm would have fucking helped a ton. Do you watch how bad our OF is? Some people blow my mind
 

SilenceS

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So IOW you think he (shark) has been and will be as good as Verlander at his best.

He better then Verlander right now. Verlander has lost it since he been playing hide the salami with Kate Upton.
 

SilenceS

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Whoops, my post was about Shark not Jackson. My bad
 

Captain Obvious

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Sounds like you dont read well. They hit on 3 and they have missed on Baker, McDonald, and Volstad coming back. They also whiffed on two relievers that they spent a good bit of money on. I dont look at the negatives. I look at the whole picture. Sorry, I dont just proclaim every move great and forget the bad.

I'm not saying you should. But in your previous post, you mentioned all negatives. I was just commenting on that. Between Baker, McDonald, and Volstad, we lost about $6 mil. That's not a huge deal. Baker was $5.5 mil. When you consider that those types of deals have worked out for us in Feldman and Hammel, I think it all evens out, even favors in our direction.
 

Captain Obvious

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We werent close to signing Tanaka. lol Also, yes, one or two bats would make this team around .500. I wanted Cruz. He could have been had easily because he was trying to have a prove yourself season. No, I did not think he would be this good but his norm would have fucking helped a ton. Do you watch how bad our OF is? Some people blow my mind

I understand that. But why would we offer him the deal we did if we couldn't afford it?

Okay, a couple bats put us at .500, who cares? Even if you add Cruz, it doesn't make this team a playoff team. I get it, our OF is bad, but replacing one of them with Nelson Cruz or just about anyone isn't going to make us a playoff team.
 

SilenceS

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I'm not saying you should. But in your previous post, you mentioned all negatives. I was just commenting on that. Between Baker, McDonald, and Volstad, we lost about $6 mil. That's not a huge deal. Baker was $5.5 mil. When you consider that those types of deals have worked out for us in Feldman and Hammel, I think it all evens out, even favors in our direction.

The 19.5 million came from Vera, Fuji, and Baker. I dont care that they have failed with some players. Its part of the buisness. What I am saying is 19.5 million was spent on nothing but people have a problem paying someone the same amount that actually produces.
 

SilenceS

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I understand that. But why would we offer him the deal we did if we couldn't afford it?

Okay, a couple bats put us at .500, who cares? Even if you add Cruz, it doesn't make this team a playoff team. I get it, our OF is bad, but replacing one of them with Nelson Cruz or just about anyone isn't going to make us a playoff team.

This post right here means I am leaving the convo alone because this is not going to be a level headed convo.
 

chibears55

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The 19.5 million came from Vera, Fuji, and Baker. I dont care that they have failed with some players. Its part of the buisness. What I am saying is 19.5 million was spent on nothing but people have a problem paying someone the same amount that actually produces.
I understand what your saying and totally agree..
I just think the last 2 off seasons the real good FAs unless the cubs grossly overpaid just weren't going to come here
 

Captain Obvious

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The 19.5 million came from Vera, Fuji, and Baker. I dont care that they have failed with some players. Its part of the buisness. What I am saying is 19.5 million was spent on nothing but people have a problem paying someone the same amount that actually produces.

If they aren't going to produce to be worth their contract, then I don't want to sign them. But I get what you're saying.
This post right here means I am leaving the convo alone because this is not going to be a level headed convo.

I'm not saying Nelson Cruz makes us worse, he clearly doesn't. I just think that if he were signed, he'd be dealt at the deadline, which I'd be okay with, because he would net us a nice haul.
 

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My favorite teams
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  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Illinois Fighting Illini
He better then Verlander right now. Verlander has lost it since he been playing hide the salami with Kate Upton.

Let me know when Shark carries the Cubs every 5th day to the WS as Verlander did. Of course Shark is better right now, but Verlander is paid as an ace because he clearly has been one...right on through the postseason.
 

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