Kobe vs. MJ for the LAST TIME ALREADY!

houheffna

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You are quite a bit younger than me I believe...I saw 90% of Jordan's games over the last 10 seasons he played as a Bull. He got more calls than Kobe gets...not even close.
 
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Jordan got MORE gift calls than Kobe?

In the playoffs...? The Finals?

I saw Jordan play from 1990-2003 and don't remember instances as disturbing as Kobe's treatment.

Am i wrong here everyone? Maybe I am...
 

houheffna

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Yeah...you are wrong...very wrong...nobody wrote a book about it though...
 
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Yeah, I'm still waiting for some specific examples of Jordan getting unfair treatment in the Finals the way Kobe has...

I just gave you a ton of examples...

Let's hear some.


houheffna wrote:
Yeah...you are wrong...very wrong...nobody wrote a book about it though...
 

houheffna

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I just got done with college...don't need anymore homework assignments....the fact that Jordan got superstar calls is a documented fact....go look it up yourself...your wanting evidence is shocking to me...even the most hardcore Jordan fans know he got the benefit of the doubt in most situations...

What does any of that have to do with who is better anyway?

the point is, if you think the Bulls didn't get the benefit of the doubt because of MJ a lot of the time...then what were you watching from 1990-2003?
 
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You can't come up with any clear obvious examples the way I did with Kobe?

If it's true that Jordan received MORE preferential care in the Finals, shouldn't there be people listing multiple instances in which Jordan or Jordan's teams were given unfair advantages in order to advance to the Finals or to win the Finals the way Kobe did?

Shouldn't it be even easier to list Jordan/Bulls examples the way I listed 6 or 7 or 8 Kobe/Laker examples in 30 seconds off the top of my head?

Ironically, I happen to recall just as many instances when a call went against the Bulls in the playoffs than unfair calls going their way.

At the moment all I have is Reggie Miller getting away with a huge shove and Michael Jordan's foul on Russell.

That's all I've got and I watched him for all of his championships. Every one of them. And that's all I remember.

That's why I asked the question. Some of you saw just as much and some of you, even more than I've seen. Can any of you remember anything else?

Again, if I am wrong I humbly accept that. I'm really not trying to be mean about this. I'm just not convinced when all we've got to work with is "Well, Jordan got a lot more gift calls in the playoffs than Kobe just cause I say so and because someone wrote a book 18 years ago."

I already gave you all the Utah game when Jordan gets away with a clear and obvious offensive foul...I'm even willing to settle with two more examples of how Jordan or Jordan's team was given an unfair advantage in the playoffs by the refs because I honest to goodness can't recall much more than that.

That's all I'm looking for.

The reason I brought this up was because Kobe's first and third championships were very suspect. I watched the games without any baggage whatsoever and watched it completely objectively and the treatment those Lakers teams got made me sick to my stomach.

That's why it's unsettling to me when people were saying Kobe was better than Jordan at the time because he got to 3 quicker. It was a lot easier when you've got Shaq and every single call going your way.

MJ had to earn his way and go through Isaiah Thomas, Larry Bird and Magic Johnson.

Kobe, as the second-best player on those teams had to go through Steve Smith and Rasheed Wallace and Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson.

It was clearly tougher for Jordan.

That's why I brought that up - in order to point out how ridiculous it is to say Kobe's better than Jordan because he got to 3 quicker.

Again, no disrespect intended to you or to anyone else.

I'm just looking for something that is more convincing.

houheffna wrote:
I just got done with college...don't need anymore homework assignments....the fact that Jordan got superstar calls is a documented fact....go look it up yourself...your wanting evidence is shocking to me...even the most hardcore Jordan fans know he got the benefit of the doubt in most situations...

What does any of that have to do with who is better anyway?

the point is, if you think the Bulls didn't get the benefit of the doubt because of MJ a lot of the time...then what were you watching from 1990-2003?
 

JayJohnstone

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Frank Breakfast-Styleham wrote:
9. Jordan career playoff averages: 33.4 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 5.7 apg to go with almost 1 block a game. Kobe: 25 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 4.7 apg. Good but nowhere near as good as Jordan where it matters most.

Plus Jordan's FG%, 3pt FT% and FT% are all better than Kobe's in the playoffs. 3pt FT% and FT% are close but Jordan is quite a bit ahead on FG% .487 to .447.
 

JayJohnstone

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houheffna wrote:
You are quite a bit younger than me I believe...I saw 90% of Jordan's games over the last 10 seasons he played as a Bull. He got more calls than Kobe gets...not even close.

More important than this is that the NBA has passed rule after rule to prevent defenders from being effective since MJ retired. I can't even imagine how many points a prime-time MJ could score with these rules. For instance, defenders could place a hand in the back when MJ played.
 

houheffna

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The Kobe got 3 championships quicker argument is not a good argument. Give any allstar guard Shaquille ONeal and you have a championship core. That said, it has been obvious at times, not so obvious most of the time, that Jordan was the beneficiary of superstar calls. However, players and even teams complained about the Bulls getting the red carpet treatment because Jordan going deep in the playoffs benefited the league. That happened on numerous occasions.
 

Diddy1122

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Yea, Hou is right here. But Jay is right too. During MJ's heyday the game was ALOT more physical than it is now. But even so MJ still got more calls than Kobe. It's hard to me to think of specifics instances because it's been over 10 years since he was a Bull. But I will say this. During MJ's 15 year career he was in the top 3 in FTA's 7 times. In Kobe's 13 seasons thus far, he's been in the top 3 just twice.

However, I will agree with Frank that those Lakers championships had alot more contreversial calls than any of the Bulls championships. In the 2002 WCF, the refs basically gift wrapped game 6 to the Lakers with nothing but BS call after BS call. The Lakers shot 40 FT's to the Kings 25. I had not seen a playoff game, nor have since, so badly officiated in my entire 20+ years of watching basketball. The Kings should have won that game & went to their first Finals since 1951 when they were the Rodchester Royals.
 

TheStig

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Shakes wrote:
Frank Breakfast-Styleham wrote:
Does it matter that he was only Robin when he won his first 3 and that he only has one as a main man (Horry has 7 - would that mean Horry's better than Jordan since he has more, Bill Sharman?)


I don't want to go all "organisations win championships" here, but it's all about the team not the individual. All I'm saying is that if Kobe wins 7 rings then he's got one achievement over MJ, not that it makes him the better player.


LeBron might just be a better player than MJ when it's all said and done, and even if he never wins a championship because they never give him good enough support, that wouldn't change my opinion. Team success reflects on the whole team, not one individual.

Its different though. After the last 3 peat, MJ could have signed with the lakers when shaq did and he would have won at least 3 more with him. Its a lot different to play with the most dominant player at the time. Kobe was still a a top 10 player but he wouldn't have sniffed more than the first round with an average center.
 

TheStig

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MJ played in a different era than Kobe and its trully amazing what he accomplished with the rules. I can't imagine Kobe being able to take the bad boy pistons or getting to the lane as much with players allowed to hand check him. Can you imagine a young MJ who drove so much in todays nba? He would get a minimum of 20 fta a game. Just watch some highlights of mj getting clobbered with no call.
 
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Whoah whoah whoah...

Are you THE Jay Johnstone?

Like Jay Johnstone from The Lighter Side of Sports? Jay Johnstone from The Naked Gun!?

JayJohnstone wrote:
houheffna wrote:
You are quite a bit younger than me I believe...I saw 90% of Jordan's games over the last 10 seasons he played as a Bull. He got more calls than Kobe gets...not even close.

More important than this is that the NBA has passed rule after rule to prevent defenders from being effective since MJ retired. I can't even imagine how many points a prime-time MJ could score with these rules. For instance, defenders could place a hand in the back when MJ played.
 
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Premise-wise I completely agree with you but I'm still having trouble with the "Jordan received MORE unfair calls than Kobe did in the playoffs" when the only thing that is offered is "Well, Jordan just received more just cause he did."

Again, I ask are there ANY examples you can list? Either Jordan or the Bulls in the playoffs receiving unfair advantages from the refs? Aside from the Bryan Russell shove off I can't think of one more.

If it's true Jordan and Jordan's teams received unfair advantages in the playoffs shouldn't we be able to list them left and right like I did with Kobe and the Lakers...?

I'm sure a lot of calls went MJ's way but all I'm saying is, I'm having the hardest time recalling more than one.

Diddy1122 wrote:
Yea, Hou is right here. But Jay is right too. During MJ's heyday the game was ALOT more physical than it is now. But even so MJ still got more calls than Kobe. It's hard to me to think of specifics instances because it's been over 10 years since he was a Bull. But I will say this. During MJ's 15 year career he was in the top 3 in FTA's 7 times. In Kobe's 13 seasons thus far, he's been in the top 3 just twice.

However, I will agree with Frank that those Lakers championships had alot more contreversial calls than any of the Bulls championships. In the 2002 WCF, the refs basically gift wrapped game 6 to the Lakers with nothing but BS call after BS call. The Lakers shot 40 FT's to the Kings 25. I had not seen a playoff game, nor have since, so badly officiated in my entire 20+ years of watching basketball. The Kings should have won that game & went to their first Finals since 1951 when they were the Rodchester Royals.
 

houheffna

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I'm sure a lot of calls went MJ's way but all I'm saying is, I'm having the hardest time recalling more than one.

Well, maybe someone will come up with something...I am glad that you acknowledge that a lot of calls went MJ's way. I think its obvious.

Nobody remembers him BLATANTLY, OBVIOUSLY, PURPOSELY (and admitting it after the game) knocking Jalen Rose's tooth out and not getting a flagrant foul? He should have been ejected...nobody thought twice about it though...these things happen...part of the game.
 
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There's an example! Thanks man. I always agreed Jordan got calls to go his way...what I was getting at was that i doubt he had as MANY unfair advantags by the refs as I've seen Kobe get.

That's a good example...totally forgot about that one.

That's legit.

houheffna wrote:
I'm sure a lot of calls went MJ's way but all I'm saying is, I'm having the hardest time recalling more than one.

Well, maybe someone will come up with something...I am glad that you acknowledge that a lot of calls went MJ's way. I think its obvious.

Nobody remembers him BLATANTLY, OBVIOUSLY, PURPOSELY (and admitting it after the game) knocking Jalen Rose's tooth out and not getting a flagrant foul? He should have been ejected...nobody thought twice about it though...these things happen...part of the game.
 

TheStig

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The reason no one remembers these types of calls with MJ is because he was smart and crafty and could hide a lot of it. Mj didn't make things obvious, he created doubt and got the benefit of the doubt because he was the best player.
 

houheffna

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The reason no one remembers these types of calls with MJ is because he was smart and crafty and could hide a lot of it. Mj didn't make things obvious, he created doubt and got the benefit of the doubt because he was the best player.

I would say that is the case...but the referees saw a lot and let it go...that is what a lot of players complained about. That situation with Jalen Rose was blatant, nothing crafty or even smart about that...it was unnecessary....my point is Jordan got away with a lot...it is what it is...
 

TheStig

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houheffna wrote:
The reason no one remembers these types of calls with MJ is because he was smart and crafty and could hide a lot of it. Mj didn't make things obvious, he created doubt and got the benefit of the doubt because he was the best player.

I would say that is the case...but the referees saw a lot and let it go...that is what a lot of players complained about. That situation with Jalen Rose was blatant, nothing crafty or even smart about that...it was unnecessary....my point is Jordan got away with a lot...it is what it is...

He definitely did get the benefit of the calls too. All top 5 players get those types of calls. I wouldn't signal out Kobe, Wade, Bron or MJ as guys who didn't consistently get the benefit. MJ was just so crafty at getting into position to get the questionable call. Most of the time it wasn't obvious like your Jalen Rose example. In todays NBA though, I can easily see MJ averaging at least 5 more fta per game with the rule change.
 
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I remember Karl Malone breaking guys NOSES (more than 3 times if i remember) and the foul going on the guy whose nose got busted! Karl Malone got away with SO much so if Karl Malone did Michael Jordan HAD to have as well.

Good points all around everyone. Thank you.
 

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