Kobe vs. MJ for the LAST TIME ALREADY!

[Riker]

Jordan got more calls?


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Lakers are ACUSTOMED to do foul sh!t, from Shaq in his day, Kobe, Fish, all DIRTBAGS when it comes to abusing their "status" with refs...there's not one single argument for sayin Jordan got more calls. You CAN'T TOUCH Kobe nowadays. Or any other superstar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNM28C0XNF0

Gimme a break.

He freakin ELBOWED Artest and ARTEST got ejected in playoffs last year. THAT'S how cuddled this potatohead is.

And he's nowhere near MJ.

Those "fundamentally sound" arguments are ridiculous. I bet you don't even know what that means. You're probably saying it because you've heard it on TV. Or - explain. Fundamentally sound how? Why doesn't he shoot better if he has better fundamentals?

Where are his stats to back up that claim? How do you measure fundamentals?


Get outta here....

 

[houheffna]

Gimme a break.

He freakin ELBOWED Artest and ARTEST got ejected in playoffs last year. THAT'S how cuddled this potatohead is.

And he's nowhere near MJ.

Those "fundamentally sound" arguments are ridiculous. I bet you don't even know what that means. You're probably saying it because you've heard it on TV. Or - explain. Fundamentally sound how? Why doesn't he shoot better if he has better fundamentals?

Where are his stats to back up that claim? How do you measure fundamentals?


Get outta here....

You need stats to show who is more sound fundamentally? Okay...I never said that Kobe was better...I said he was more sound fundamentally...his skills were better. Specifically in ballhandling and shooting from range. Skills essential for any shooting guard. I notice while you "bet" I don't know the fundamentals, you never expounded on what they are. Maybe because you are a basketball idiot who likes to talk tough on the internet.

I bet you are an internet gangsta that likes to talk tough online but shit on yourself when you hear a gunshot....just a bet...

I usually don't waste time with people who come up with ludicrous ideas like looking at stat sheets to see who is more sound fundamentally...but since you were fishing through youtube (with hand firmly placed in pants I gather) here is a vid for you from someone who knows them better than you or I...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s

 

[Kush77]

Jordan got more calls than Kobe not even close?

Was there a study done on this? Are there stats on this at one of those fancy stat websites? How did we come to this conclusion?

When did Jordan intentionally knock out the tooth of Jalen Rose? I don't remember? Was this with Indiana?

Was it a stray elbow? I'm sure Jordan's intention wasn't "I'm gonna knock out his tooth."

I do remember MJ bouncing the ball of the head of Mark Jackson when he got bumped out of bounds by him. He should of been ejected but because he's MJ he wasn't.

I don't remember the Jalen Rose thing though.

 

[Kush77]

I still can't but this fundamentals argument.

I've watched Kobe his whole career and MJ since his 4th year. There's nothing I see from Kobe that makes me say he's better than Jordan - except for his long range shooting.

They both handle the ball well. I can't sit here and say one is better than the other. What exactly does Kobe do better dribbling-wise than Jordan. Where's there a difference?

When it comes to long-range shooting, I see the difference. Kobe can jack from about 25 feet no problem. Jordan doesn't have that type of range.

But when it comes to ball-handling and there other fundamentals, I don't buy it.

Sure Phil said what he said, but he's also coaching Kobe. I doubt he would come out and say, "Well MJ is just better than Kobe in every aspect of the game." He's gonna give some props to his current main man.

 

[houheffna]

I still can't but this fundamentals argument.

I've watched Kobe his whole career and MJ since his 4th year. There's nothing I see from Kobe that makes me say he's better than Jordan - except for his long range shooting.

They both handle the ball well. I can't sit here and say one is better than the other. What exactly does Kobe do better dribbling-wise than Jordan. Where's there a difference?

When it comes to long-range shooting, I see the difference. Kobe can jack from about 25 feet no problem. Jordan doesn't have that type of range.

But when it comes to ball-handling and there other fundamentals, I don't buy it.

Sure Phil said what he said, but he's also coaching Kobe. I doubt he would come out and say, "Well MJ is just better than Kobe in every aspect of the game." He's gonna give some props to his current main man.

Kobe already said that MJ was a better player...why would Phil have to lie about it? It is well known that MJ is the best ever, why would Phil have to deviate from that to say Kobe is better in any way when Kobe has already settled the argument? Makes no sense...
Phil used to say all the time that MJ needed to improve his ballhandling. Doesn't mean he sucked at it, he just could have done better. And from his point of view, Kobe is better in that area. I am sorry but I see nothing sacrilegious in saying that...there ARE A LOT OF PLAYERS in the history of the game who are better ballhandlers than MJ and a few play now...no big deal. That was not his strong point.

Jordan got more calls than Kobe not even close?

Was there a study done on this? Are there stats on this at one of those fancy stat websites? How did we come to this conclusion?

When did Jordan intentionally knock out the tooth of Jalen Rose? I don't remember? Was this with Indiana?

Was it a stray elbow? I'm sure Jordan's intention wasn't "I'm gonna knock out his tooth."

I do remember MJ bouncing the ball of the head of Mark Jackson when he got bumped out of bounds by him. He should of been ejected but because he's MJ he wasn't.

I don't remember the Jalen Rose thing though.

Why are you giving Jordan the benefit of the doubt? He said he meant to do what he did...he was angry and he reacted. I doubt seriously if that was the first time in his career that he reacted like that either...he was highly competitive, and didn't like to let people get over on him in any way. I was shocked when I saw it...and because I was a Bulls fan, a bit upset.

 

[clonetrooper264]

I'll give Houston a bit of backup on the ballhandling thing. There are in fact many players who have better handles than Jordan. Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Magic Johnson, John Stockton to name a few. That doesn't by any means suggest than Jordan wasn't a good ballhandler himself, but just that it wasn't the strongest point of his game. I can't really look at Kobe and say that he 100% undoubtedly has better handles than Jordan though, haven't seen enough to make that call.

 

[Riker]

Ahhhh this is so tiring.


99% of the basketball world says Jordan's the best ever not because he had the best EVERYTHING skillwise or basketball-wise.


They say that because of his OVERALL qualities and how he used them on court, not to win or to play good but to DOMINATE and I'm not trying to be outta proportions.


So let us set this straight once and for all


- Vertical leap - Ivica Dukan, Bulls' scout (from Croatia) said that in MJ's second Bulls return there were GUYS (please remember the plural) who had better hops than MJ, in Bulls training camps...

- Ballhandling - verrrry stretchy argument but let's say that a premier playmaker/point guard has already better handles than any shooting guard. Common thing.

- Footwork - impossible to measure, something that people can judge solely on bias, memory, whatever.

Jordan had 50% FG not because he dunked like Shaq all the time. But because he knew how to slash and abuse smaller defenders.

In my opinion - that's footwork. Footwork ain't just "posting up" or "fadeaway shot". But to each his own.

Kobe shot more 3's than Jordan ever did...but it would be extremely laughable to think he "couldn't" shoot. He had range. He didn't use it tho. But he had range. If you look at MJ's steals and blocks and compare it to Kobes, all arguments about defense become redundant. Yes I hear what you're complaining about, "steals and blocks are not necessarily a sign that someones a great defensive player".

That may be true to extent. But then we can go on a long journey how Kobe's scoring average isn't a thing of his offensive skills. But of his ballhogging 1-on-5 skills.

And if I were a coach I would rather have "inferior footwork" 50%+ shooting guard who blocks and steals ON REGULAR...than a superduper fundamentally sound guard who hogs the ball.

 

[houheffna]

Ahhhh this is so tiring.


99% of the basketball world says Jordan's the best ever not because he had the best EVERYTHING skillwise or basketball-wise.


They say that because of his OVERALL qualities and how he used them on court, not to win or to play good but to DOMINATE and I'm not trying to be outta proportions.


So let us set this straight once and for all


- Vertical leap - Ivica Dukan, Bulls' scout (from Croatia) said that in MJ's second Bulls return there were GUYS (please remember the plural) who had better hops than MJ, in Bulls training camps...

- Ballhandling - verrrry stretchy argument but let's say that a premier playmaker/point guard has already better handles than any shooting guard. Common thing.

- Footwork - impossible to measure, something that people can judge solely on bias, memory, whatever.

Jordan had 50% FG not because he dunked like Shaq all the time. But because he knew how to slash and abuse smaller defenders.

In my opinion - that's footwork. Footwork ain't just "posting up" or "fadeaway shot". But to each his own.

Kobe shot more 3's than Jordan ever did...but it would be extremely laughable to think he "couldn't" shoot. He had range. He didn't use it tho. But he had range. If you look at MJ's steals and blocks and compare it to Kobes, all arguments about defense become redundant. Yes I hear what you're complaining about, "steals and blocks are not necessarily a sign that someones a great defensive player".

That may be true to extent. But then we can go on a long journey how Kobe's scoring average isn't a thing of his offensive skills. But of his ballhogging 1-on-5 skills.

And if I were a coach I would rather have "inferior footwork" 50%+ shooting guard who blocks and steals ON REGULAR...than a superduper fundamentally sound guard who hogs the ball.

Well now you come back with your tail between your legs changing the damn subject. What is tiring is this mousepad mobster bullshit you like to pull off every other week on these forums. Now Kobe is a ballhog...

WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH SKILLS?

Jordan averaged more shots per game in his career than Jordan and one year averaged almost 26 a game...Kobe has not come near that. Jordan was once called a ballhog too...who cares? I said that Kobe was the more fundamentally sound player...and had a second opinion...Phil Jackson, to back that up.

Why are you bringing up point guards? We are talking about shooting guards here, and comparing their skill level. Ballhandling and long range shooting are what I am talking about. Has nothing to do with the volume of shots taken, it has to do with ability...plain and simple. Nobody said Jordan couldn't shoot threes, I said Kobe was better. Nobody said Kobe was a better player, I said he was better skilled, could do certain things better. Big difference.

 

[Shakes]

I think a lot of Jordan not being good at shooting threes is because he wasn't expected to. Teams didn't use the three anywhere near as much back then: the year Jordan came into the league the entire Bulls team shot 161 threes, last year Ben Gordon alone shot 422. If Jordan started playing today he'd probably have learnt to shoot threes better because doing so is more important.

Bryant and Jordan have overlapping careers but there's still somewhat of a generational difference that accounts for their different styles of play as much as any inherent ability differences.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

I still can't but this fundamentals argument.

I've watched Kobe his whole career and MJ since his 4th year. There's nothing I see from Kobe that makes me say he's better than Jordan - except for his long range shooting.

They both handle the ball well. I can't sit here and say one is better than the other. What exactly does Kobe do better dribbling-wise than Jordan. Where's there a difference?

When it comes to long-range shooting, I see the difference. Kobe can jack from about 25 feet no problem. Jordan doesn't have that type of range.

But when it comes to ball-handling and there other fundamentals, I don't buy it.

Sure Phil said what he said, but he's also coaching Kobe. I doubt he would come out and say, "Well MJ is just better than Kobe in every aspect of the game." He's gonna give some props to his current main man.

Kobe already said that MJ was a better player...why would Phil have to lie about it? It is well known that MJ is the best ever, why would Phil have to deviate from that to say Kobe is better in any way when Kobe has already settled the argument? Makes no sense...
Phil used to say all the time that MJ needed to improve his ballhandling. Doesn't mean he sucked at it, he just could have done better. And from his point of view, Kobe is better in that area. I am sorry but I see nothing sacrilegious in saying that...there ARE A LOT OF PLAYERS in the history of the game who are better ballhandlers than MJ and a few play now...no big deal. That was not his strong point.

Jordan got more calls than Kobe not even close?

Was there a study done on this? Are there stats on this at one of those fancy stat websites? How did we come to this conclusion?

When did Jordan intentionally knock out the tooth of Jalen Rose? I don't remember? Was this with Indiana?

Was it a stray elbow? I'm sure Jordan's intention wasn't "I'm gonna knock out his tooth."

I do remember MJ bouncing the ball of the head of Mark Jackson when he got bumped out of bounds by him. He should of been ejected but because he's MJ he wasn't.

I don't remember the Jalen Rose thing though.

Why are you giving Jordan the benefit of the doubt? He said he meant to do what he did...he was angry and he reacted. I doubt seriously if that was the first time in his career that he reacted like that either...he was highly competitive, and didn't like to let people get over on him in any way. I was shocked when I saw it...and because I was a Bulls fan, a bit upset.

So what are you saying? That Jordan knocked out the tooth of Jalen Rose, then said after the game he meant to knock out the tooth of Jalen Rose????

I don't remember this. I asked you when this was but you didn't answer it. Was this when Rose played with Indiana? Was this when Jordan was with Washington? Can you give me a year? I'll go search the archives for the story.

I know it ain't the first time he reacted like that. I do believe I posted an example of what he did to Mark Jackson.

 

[Kush77]

The Jordan tooth incident.

According to the story Jordan hit Rose on the back of the neck, which led to Rose's teeth hitting each other and chipping one of them. I thought Jordan hit Rose in the mouth the way Hou made it sound. And this was in MJ's Wiz days, Rose was on the Bulls.

Here's the story.

Truce and no consequences - Despite chipping tooth , Rose isn't mad at MJ
Chicago Sun-Times - Monday, March 3, 2003
Author: Roman Modrowski

Jalen Rose said Sunday he doesn't harbor any lasting bitterness toward Michael Jordan , even after their physical sparring spilled over into their postgame comments the previous night.

It doesn't matter much anyway because the Bulls are done with the Wizards this year and Jordan plans to retire after this season. So Saturday's technical foul-filled 101-93 victory by the Wizards in Washington will soon fade into memory as Rose plans to play pick-up games with Jordan again this summer.

Rose might wear a mouthguard during those games after losing half a tooth to a Jordan foul Saturday. After the game, Rose accused Jordan of deliberately taking a cheap shot by hitting him in the back of the neck, causing Rose 's teeth to strike against each other, chipping one tooth in half. Rose visited the dentist Sunday.

Jordan admitted making sure it was a hard foul, and he said it was because Rose was talking trash throughout the game and was the reason the action deteriorated into a shoving match. Jordan questioned Rose 's leadership skills after the Bulls fell one short of their franchise record with five technicals. Tyson Chandler and Donyell Marshall were ejected.

"That's just part of competition," Rose said Sunday. He understands I'm not going to back down, and I understand he's not going to back down. As far as the verbiage after the game, that goes with the competition. How are you supposed to be after somebody knocks out one of your teeth , fouls you, beats you by eight, then gets a standing ovation with the crowd going crazy? How are you supposed to take it? You have to fight. Ain't no hard feelings. It's just the way it happens."

The same truce was not reached between Chandler and Washington's Brendan Haywood, who were the opposing centers and continued their evolving personal rivalry. Chandler was ejected with 5:22 left in the fourth after trying to push Haywood away.

Both players are in their second seasons and have had scrapes in the past. When Chandler was selected for this season's Rookie Challenge, Haywood criticized the process as random.

"He was talking junk and tried to cheap-shot me on a play before," Haywood said. "He's had a problem with me since last year. I'm 7 feet, 260, so I'm not hard to find."

Chandler, who is 7-1 and 235 pounds, said he's not looking for trouble, but he's not going to back down. Haywood joins Phoenix's Amare Stoudemire and Detroit's Cliff Robinson as opponents who seem to take Chandler's physical style personally.

Asked if there's a personal rivalry, Chandler said: "I guess [Haywood] wants us to have one. I don't know if in his mind he wants to blow it up. I don't know what it is. I'm the same with everybody. Some people take it to heart, and some people don't. Some people's emotions are more sensitive than others. I don't care. I'm coming the same way the next time I see him."

Jordan and Haywood have been known to do their share of talking, and they had plenty to say after winning the series 3-1. Despite losing the series, Bulls coach Bill Cartwright believes his organization is in better shape for the future. Washington won't have Jordan , isn't likely to have a high draft pick next season and coach Doug Collins has opted to play his veterans more than his youngsters during their playoff drive.

"Our young guys will be ready to step up next year and assume more responsibility," Cartwright said. "They, maybe, have gone through some things Washington's young guys will go through next year."

Haywood disagrees. And it didn't help Cartwright's argument that rookie Juan Dixon scored a season-high 27 points Saturday.

"I feel we're in way better shape," Haywood said. "We have young guys like Larry Hughes, and Kwame [Brown] is going to continue to develop. And Juan had a great game. We also have Etan [Thomas] and myself. And I think a free agent would rather come here than Chicago because he'd have a better chance of winning here."

The Bulls would argue the point, but the argument is going to have to wait till next season.

 

[houheffna]

According to the story Jordan hit Rose on the back of the neck, which led to Rose's teeth hitting each other and chipping one of them. I thought Jordan hit Rose in the mouth the way Hou made it sound. And this was in MJ's Wiz days, Rose was on the Bulls.

Here's the story.

Hou made it sound like what it was...you make it sound like an accident. It is what it is...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

According to the story Jordan hit Rose on the back of the neck, which led to Rose's teeth hitting each other and chipping one of them. I thought Jordan hit Rose in the mouth the way Hou made it sound. And this was in MJ's Wiz days, Rose was on the Bulls.

Here's the story.

Hou made it sound like what it was...you make it sound like an accident. It is what it is...

You made it sound like an elbow to the mouth. Its not reasonable to hit someone on the back of the neck and expect to break their tooth. Guys get hit in the back of the neck all the time and don't break teeth. So it really doesn't sound like he intended to break his tooth, just to give him a hard foul for running his mouth too much.

 

[houheffna]

Well, maybe someone will come up with something...I am glad that you acknowledge that a lot of calls went MJ's way. I think its obvious.

Nobody remembers him BLATANTLY, OBVIOUSLY, PURPOSELY (and admitting it after the game) knocking Jalen Rose's tooth out and not getting a flagrant foul? He should have been ejected...nobody thought twice about it though...these things happen...part of the game.

Where does it say "mouth"? The fact is other players would have had a flagrant called against them for that...or at least been charged with one after the fact.

If I elbow you in the back of the head and your tooth gets chipped, well, I didn't mean to knock your tooth out...just meant to hit you hard enough to make a point...

the f--- out of here.

 

[JayJohnstone]

Frank Breakfast-Styleham wrote:

Whoah whoah whoah...

Are you THE Jay Johnstone?

Like Jay Johnstone from The Lighter Side of Sports? Jay Johnstone from The Naked Gun!?

Ahhh...no.

 

[JayJohnstone]

houheffna wrote:
Phil used to say all the time that MJ needed to improve his ballhandling.

Source? It's definitely not in that youtube clip. In the clip, in terms of specifics, Phil said Kobe's outside shooting might be better. That't it.

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

Oh, okay.

 

[houheffna]

Source? It's definitely not in that youtube clip.

I heard Phil say that going back to the early 90's. He caught flack for it but he said that people would be surprised that he would say that. Phil talked about ballhandling drills that he would put the team through and he said that Jordan was one of the people that needed to improve in that area. I don't have a source...didn't bother looking.

When Phil agrees that Kobe has better skills, I am pretty sure that is one of the basketball skills he would be talking about too.

 

[JayJohnstone]

houheffna wrote:

Source? It's definitely not in that youtube clip.

I heard Phil say that going back to the early 90's. He caught flack for it but he said that people would be surprised that he would say that. Phil talked about ballhandling drills that he would put the team through and he said that Jordan was one of the people that needed to improve in that area. I don't have a source...didn't bother looking.

When Phil agrees that Kobe has better skills, I am pretty sure that is one of the basketball skills he would be talking about too.

I followed the Jordan Bulls religiously, read all the books and have never seen or heard anything like that.

In that clip, PJax said that MJ had "the million dollar hands" and talks about all the things this allows MJ to do that Kobe can't with a basketball. Including "picking the basketball off the floor". That's the closest he comes to discussing ball-handling and it's in MJ's favor. It's a huge stretch to take something you think you heard 10 years ago and then assume that PJax is still speaking to this in that clip IMHO.

 

[houheffna]

I followed the Jordan Bulls religiously, read all the books and have never seen or heard anything like that.

In that clip, PJax said that MJ had "the million dollar hands" and talks about all the things this allows MJ to do that Kobe can't with a basketball. Including "picking the basketball off the floor". That's the closest he comes to discussing ball-handling and it's in MJ's favor. It's a huge stretch to take something you think you heard 10 years ago and then assume that PJax is still speaking to this in that clip IMHO.

He was talking about Jordan's hands in terms of size...not in terms of ballhandling. Phil was talking about the size of Jordan's hands and how it was an asset in his palming the ball. Kobe in comparison has small hands. If hand size dictated ballhandling, power forwards and centers would bring the ball up more often.

I watched Jordan religiously too and I have seen plenty of Kobe...I see what Phil was talking about and I agree with Phil.