Kobe vs. MJ for the LAST TIME ALREADY!

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Jordan did it because he was talking trash man...a lot of trash talking was going on during the game and Jordan got tired of it. If he got elbowed so hard in the neck that his teeth chipped up every time he talked trash, he would be wearing dentures right now...

Is your issue more with what Jordan did or the fact that he wasn't called for a flagrant foul, or ejected?

Because if it's just what he did I'm curious about you opinion on a guy like Norm Van Lier? And do you think some sort of retaliation should have happened with James Posey back in the Bulls/Heat rivalry days?

I 100% think someone should have taken a shot a Posey. But technically that would be wrong. Do you disagree with me on that?

 

[JayJohnstone]

houheffna wrote:

Well, I am a huge Terry Boers fan, have been for over 20 years...but I disagree with them on quite a bit. I like Mike North too, I agree with him on almost nothing (except Ben Gordon, we agree a bit on that one). Actually Bernstein agrees with me in comparing Kobe and Jordan's games, I thought it was me, Phil and a bunch of Lakers fans.

Don't forget Jemele Hill, noted female ESPN sportswriter. She is on the record as saying Kobe is better.

Excluding Phil who's always playing an angle, that's not company I would be proud to be haning with.

 

[houheffna]

Is your issue more with what Jordan did or the fact that he wasn't called for a flagrant foul, or ejected?

Because if it's just what he did I'm curious about you opinion on a guy like Norm Van Lier? And do you think some sort of retaliation should have happened with James Posey back in the Bulls/Heat rivalry days?

I 100% think someone should have taken a shot a Posey. But technically that would be wrong. Do you disagree with me on that?

My point is MJ gets away with stuff just like Kobe supposedly does. What Norm Van Lier did in the 70's is archaic...it was accepted back then...not now. There were no fragrant fouls back then...

I have no problem with someone taking a shot at Posey...it would be technically wrong and the appropriate foul would be called and if an ejection is in order, the player should be ejected.

 

[Shakes]

I think it's funny that the focus is on MJ as a flawed individual when the guy he's being compared to is a rapist.

 

[houheffna]

Don't forget Jemele Hill, noted female ESPN sportswriter. She is on the record as saying Kobe is better.

Excluding Phil who's always playing an angle, that's not company I would be proud to be haning with.

Phil is consistent in his feelings about the two...he is just really tired of talking about it.

Hill is a very good writer...but I never said Kobe a better player...

I think it's funny that the focus is on MJ as a flawed individual when the guy he's being compared to is a rapist.

Was that case not dismissed before trial?

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

I think it's funny that the focus is on MJ as a flawed individual when the guy he's being compared to is a rapist.

Was that case not dismissed before trial?

I hear OJ is still searching for the real killers too.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

houheffna wrote:

I think it's funny that the focus is on MJ as a flawed individual when the guy he's being compared to is a rapist.

Was that case not dismissed before trial?

I hear OJ is still searching for the real killers too.

lol +1

 

[houheffna]

I hear OJ is still searching for the real killers too.

I was asking because I wasn't sure...

No need to go any further into this groundless argument...the fact that Kobe was never convicted notwithstanding...

 

[houheffna]

Kobe Bryant is a little more gifted athletically than Michael Jordan was.

Kobe is a much better pure shooter. Kobe has risen into Michael's rare air when it comes to making great late shots. Kobe is a little taller, and just as quick and strong. Kobe plays with as much nightly energy and passion as Michael did, even on defense.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/041217

Though I like Jemele Hill much more than Bayless, I agree more with Bayless on this particular subject, the article he writes contrast the two in other ways besides on the court.

This is from Skip Bayless in 2004...I was shocked at the timing of this article. I thought Phil Jackson was the only one that would dare to make these type of statements.

 

[fola]

Kush77 wrote:

fola wrote:

houheffna wrote:

He was a great player, the greatest...but not flawless. I refuse as a grown man to act as if everything he does is right when I wouldn't feel the same if another human being did some of the same things. I worship no one. I rest easy knowing that.

I don't think you've ever said anything--here--that I agree with more. The lengths to which people go to deify such a flawed individual are down right mind boggling (and disappointing) to me. I guess it stems from many/most people being bulls fans because of MJ and not vice versa. Oh well...

"Such a flawed individual." You say that as if he's a child abuser or something.

The word flawed is a bit strong. Or the phrase, "such a flawed." I would say he's human. He made mistakes (like cheating on his wife) other than that what has he done that would make us think he's so bad? His HOF speech?

All this talk about MJ, and him as a person has started mainly because of his HOF speech. I don't think it was bad and I think the media reaction was way overblown.

So I will defend MJ when it comes to that speech. And if people view me as a Jordan defender, then I'm guilty as charged. Because the speech wasn't bad.

Jordan has done a lot of good things as well. But that all seems to be lost for some reason because certain folks in the media want to make it their cause to prove that Jordan can make mistakes.

Who doesn't know this? That's my question. Who are these people that think Jordan is this perfect person that does no wrong? Wasn't that image shattered 17 years ago with "The Jordan Rules" book?

Some might say me, but I can back up what I say. I'm not blindly making claims that I can't back up.

Maybe I came on a little strong, but I stand by what i've said. I've had the oppurtunity to play with with several nba/dl/euroleague guys and there are two things that are constant whenever mj is brought up. 1. he's the greatest ever and 2. he's a complete asshole.

The simplest way to describe it is that he has a habit of going out of his way to belittle people. And i'm not just talking regular trash talking...

watch the video below, now imagine if you've recieved 7-10 accounts of similar situations from different people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTb-xOb5LTw

..deeply flawed.. maybe an understatement.

 

[houheffna]

Maybe I came on a little strong, but I stand by what i've said. I've had the oppurtunity to play with with several nba/dl/euroleague guys and there are two things that are constant whenever mj is brought up. 1. he's the greatest ever and 2. he's a complete asshole.

The simplest way to describe it is that he has a habit of going out of his way to belittle people. And i'm not just talking regular trash talking..

I have heard the same...and yes, he is flawed...that is fact....some accusations brought up on here concerning Kobe Bryant are not.....

 

[JayJohnstone]

houheffna wrote:

I have heard the same...and yes, he is flawed...that is fact....some accusations brought up on here concerning Kobe Bryant are not.....

What a bunch of crap!!!

What do you really think happened in Colorado?

More importantly from a basketball perspective, in the team dynamics, maybe Jordan was mean enough to drive out Brad Sellers and Dennis Hopson but he never drove out one of the 50 greatest players of all time ala Kobe.

 

[JayJohnstone]

This is a basketball board, right? I assume we really don't want to judge player's personal flaws. I assume we really want to discuss how such flaws would effect their basketball team.

Jordan's last full 6 seasons with the Bulls resulted in 6 basketball championships. I really don't see how his personal flaws were a detriment to the Bulls. In fact, and this is just my opinion, much of his personal flaws centered around his competitiveness which is why he was the best and why his team's won (when there was sufficient talent surrounding him).

If this thread isn't about basketball, but it's about personal flaws and who Mike didn't sign an autograph for, could someone just state that and I can stop wasting my time. I don't think anyone is arguing that Mike doesn't have his personal flaws and his demons.

 

[houheffna]

What a bunch of crap!!!

What do you really think happened in Colorado?

More importantly from a basketball perspective, in the team dynamics, maybe Jordan was mean enough to drive out Brad Sellers and Dennis Hopson but he never drove out one of the 50 greatest players of all time ala Kobe.

The flaws I speak of are on the court and not a bunch of crap...what IS crap is how easily another player or players flaws and mistakes can easily be brought up in conversation. A gentleman says that Jordan is a flawed individual and people fly off the handle because of their suppositions based on what he MIGHT have meant by that statement. But if off the court drama is going to be brought into the conversation, then all is fair game. And all this "drove out" b.s. is just more groundless crap that is used to debase one superstar in favor of another. Shaq himself came out and said its not true. While I believe that Kobe could have spoken up to keep him around, Shaq's leaving was not Kobe's decision.

When comparing Kobe and Michael on the court...it should not be a sin to say that Kobe is better in any one area. That should not be a big problem. Lebron is better than both of them in certain areas of the game. There have been books written about both players' flaws concerning basketball. I was perfectly willing to stay within those parameters...and was attacked for it. It is interesting that you are upset about Jordan's flaws off the court being brought up...but not about Kobe's. Calling Kobe a rapist is also out of bounds. When I spoke of Jordan's flaws, it was not as a husband, it was as a teammate. Jordan and Kobe have failed as husbands in the past. I have no problem with keeping the argument on the court. Is it possible that Jordan was not the best ball handler at his position? Yes...despite the fact that some don't want to accept it...yes its possible. Is it possible he could have improved as a shooter...yes. He was not perfect. So if someone is better, it can be stated and it shouldn't be a problem.

The argument I had with Kush was about on the court activity. The flaws i speak of are concerning intent...bad intent. And his getting away with foul play. Then people rush to his defense and the argument ensues.

This is a basketball board, but other issues are brought up all the time. Someone says Jordan has flaws and all of a sudden a riot is going to break out? Yes, Jordan is flawed...on and off the court and so is Kobe. So getting enraged about Jordan being called an asshole and not about Kobe being called a rapist is a bit one-sided if you ask me.

 

[JayJohnstone]

houheffna wrote:
The flaws I speak of are on the court and not a bunch of crap

You are agreeing that he is an ***hole and then reference his flaws. Gee, I guess that it should be obvious you are talking about basketaball skills :dry:

houheffna wrote:
While I believe that Kobe could have spoken up to keep him around, Shaq's leaving was not Kobe's decision.

In his "Book of Basketball", Bill Simmons writes that he talked to a person in the know and Kobe signed as a FA only after being verbally guaranteed that Shaq was gone. Either way, Kobe is much more of a factor of Shaq's departure then you present above. Please.

houheffna wrote:

When comparing Kobe and Michael on the court...it should not be a sin to say that Kobe is better in any one area.

Sure...but it's not a sin to disagree. MJ played PG in the assocation with an A/TO ration that Kobe never has touched. I remember his ballhanding well and he definetely doesn't take a back seat to Kobe. Cheers!

 

[houheffna]

Don't know how much basketball you watch...but you can be an asshole on the court and with your teammates...you should consider that possibility.

Shaquille was "in the know" when he made his statement too...hell, he was one of the parties involved. Shaq leaving was not Kobe's decision...nor does it have anything to do with the argument of who is better on the court between Jordan and Kobe...if you have a problem with where the argument is going...why go there yourself?

As far as ballhandling...once again, I will take the statements of a hall of fame coach and what I have seen on the court over a stat sheet. I watch Kobe a lot these days, he goes against a lot of my fantasy league players and I still say that Kobe does everything Jordan does on the basketball court and I have not had anyone tell me after watching BOTH players thoroughly what Jordan could do that Kobe can't do on the basketball court...he is exactly like him...now Kobe has tried to put his own DNA into his game, using more of his own style, celebratory tactics etc. But they are very similar...I just think Kobe is a little better in certain areas, Jordan in others...but there is no difference. I don't think you can discern the similarities and differences by looking at stats, well I can't maybe you can...if everyone did that, there would be no scouts in the NBA, just statisticians. Cheers to you too.

 

[JayJohnstone]

houheffna wrote:

but you can be an asshole on the court and with your teammates...you should consider that possibility.

MJ isn't an asshole on the court to his own teammates. That's part of the reason why all of his coaches love him: Dean Smith, Bobby Knight, Phil Jackson, etc, etc, etc.

houheffna wrote:Shaquille was "in the know" when he made his statement too...hell, he was one of the parties involved.

Why would Shaq have to know about a private deal that Kobe cut with the Lakers? Neither the Lakers would want the league to know that a player could push them around and Kobe wouldn't want to take the heat for breaking up the Lakers.

houheffna wrote:
As far as ballhandling...once again, I will take the statements of a hall of fame coach and what I have seen on the court over a stat sheet.

Give you acknowledged that you can't produce this statement and it doesn't even address Kobe's ballhandling, I guess we will have to leave it as a difference of opinion as to what we each have seen.

 

[houheffna]

MJ isn't an asshole on the court to his own teammates. That's part of the reason why all of his coaches love him: Dean Smith, Bobby Knight, Phil Jackson, etc, etc, etc.

This statement is laughable and explains totally why the Jordan bias on this forum and in Chicago is impossible to debate against. Dude punched two of his teammates in the face! I say he is an asshole to teammates and you say he wasn't because the coaches loved him?

Seriously?

They loved him because he helped them win! You gotta be kidding me...

I have told stories on here before about how Jordan treated teammates...not going to regurgitate but I just found that statement unbelievable...and sad.

Why would Shaq have to know about a private deal that Kobe cut with the Lakers? Neither the Lakers would want the league to know that a player could push them around and Kobe wouldn't want to take the heat for breaking up the Lakers.

Its a player's league...Jordan threatened to retire if the Bulls brought Reggie Theus back to the team...

Give you acknowledged that you can't produce this statement and it doesn't even address Kobe's ballhandling, I guess we will have to leave it as a difference of opinion as to what we each have seen.

A lot of this evidence I produced in the past...if they had a search function...I would tell you to use it...its not my fault you are late to the party...

 

[Kush77]

fola wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

fola wrote:

houheffna wrote:

He was a great player, the greatest...but not flawless. I refuse as a grown man to act as if everything he does is right when I wouldn't feel the same if another human being did some of the same things. I worship no one. I rest easy knowing that.

I don't think you've ever said anything--here--that I agree with more. The lengths to which people go to deify such a flawed individual are down right mind boggling (and disappointing) to me. I guess it stems from many/most people being bulls fans because of MJ and not vice versa. Oh well...

"Such a flawed individual." You say that as if he's a child abuser or something.

The word flawed is a bit strong. Or the phrase, "such a flawed." I would say he's human. He made mistakes (like cheating on his wife) other than that what has he done that would make us think he's so bad? His HOF speech?

All this talk about MJ, and him as a person has started mainly because of his HOF speech. I don't think it was bad and I think the media reaction was way overblown.

So I will defend MJ when it comes to that speech. And if people view me as a Jordan defender, then I'm guilty as charged. Because the speech wasn't bad.

Jordan has done a lot of good things as well. But that all seems to be lost for some reason because certain folks in the media want to make it their cause to prove that Jordan can make mistakes.

Who doesn't know this? That's my question. Who are these people that think Jordan is this perfect person that does no wrong? Wasn't that image shattered 17 years ago with "The Jordan Rules" book?

Some might say me, but I can back up what I say. I'm not blindly making claims that I can't back up.

Maybe I came on a little strong, but I stand by what i've said. I've had the oppurtunity to play with with several nba/dl/euroleague guys and there are two things that are constant whenever mj is brought up. 1. he's the greatest ever and 2. he's a complete asshole.

The simplest way to describe it is that he has a habit of going out of his way to belittle people. And i'm not just talking regular trash talking...

watch the video below, now imagine if you've recieved 7-10 accounts of similar situations from different people

..deeply flawed.. maybe an understatement.

I saw that video. Someone posted it on here before.

This will get into the right and wrong argument, which I don't want to have again. But.

So Chamillionaire got dissed by Jordan. A millionaire rapper, who probably has quite an ego himself, got dissed by Jordan. It really doesn't bother me when celebrities/millionaries, have squabbles. Like Jordan/Krause. They all have giant egos and they all have a sense of entitlement.

Now if Jordan went out of his way to belittle a doorman, one of the ball boys, a kid looking for an autograph, a maid etc., then I would have a problem with that. But another pampered millionaire, doesn't bother me as much. I'm sure people will disagree but that's how I feel.

Did he belittle the D-League and Euro league guys you played with? Or did they see him do this? Were they the actual target of Jordan's belittling? I can see him doing it with other ball players. He probably views them as some sort of a threat (even though that wouldn't be the case) and he gets on them because that's how he tries to beat them.

But again, I don't know if the guys you played with were talked to directly by him - on or off the court - etc.. I would agree that he shouldn't try to go out of his way to make a D-league guy feel bad. Maybe that goes to the competitive thing. But that's not always an excuse. Ask Bill Cartwright and Ron Artest.

Hey, I have no problem with someone deciding to take matters into their own hands if they feel someone is giving them too much shit. I don't blame Cartwright for telling MJ that he would "break his legs" or Artest for breaking MJ's ribs (as legend has it) for talking too much.

I still think to say Jordan is flawed is harsh. I would say he has his problems like anyone else. I got my own issues, I wouldn't say I'm flawed though. That almost makes it seem like your broken. Like you have no chance to improve. You're damaged, no good - like Kirk Hinrich's offense ha ha :woohoo:

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Is your issue more with what Jordan did or the fact that he wasn't called for a flagrant foul, or ejected?

Because if it's just what he did I'm curious about you opinion on a guy like Norm Van Lier? And do you think some sort of retaliation should have happened with James Posey back in the Bulls/Heat rivalry days?

I 100% think someone should have taken a shot a Posey. But technically that would be wrong. Do you disagree with me on that?

My point is MJ gets away with stuff just like Kobe supposedly does. What Norm Van Lier did in the 70's is archaic...it was accepted back then...not now. There were no fragrant fouls back then...

I have no problem with someone taking a shot at Posey...it would be technically wrong and the appropriate foul would be called and if an ejection is in order, the player should be ejected.

I should have been more clear when it comes to Van Lier. I meant more his commentary when his did Bulls games. If a guy is killing you go to the basket do you send him crashing to the floor to send a message? But you answered that in a way with your response on Posey. If an ejection was in order then the player should be ejected.

As for people saying other are the greatest besides Jordan. I don't have a problem with that. Why should I, it's all opinion. The one thing I don't like (and I remember Jermele Hill's article) is when people start writing about Kobe being the greatest when he does something great. I my opinion these people, like Hill and Bayless are just playing to the crowd. Sure, it's easy to write an article calling Kobe the greatest when he scored 50 points in 4 straight games. But where's the "Kobe is the greatest article" after he loses 4-2 to the Celtics? Doesn't have to be the next day, but all was quite on the "Kobe is the greatest"-front after the Lakers got spanked by the Celtics.

The article that you posted by Dip Bayless pretty much says the things we were talking about in another thread. Kobe is a better shooter and their skills are very similar.

My point is when a two guys' skills are similar the tie-breaker would be on-court achievements. You disagreed with me on this but I say Kobe and MJ's ball-handling is pretty similar. Nothing I see from either guy makes me think one is definitively better than the other. So I turn to on-court achievements. Jordan has better career assists and turnover numbers and had a season where he played PG and averaged 8 assists per game. You say Kobe could do it if he wanted to, but he didn't. So when it comes to on-court achievements in an area where ball-handling is important, MJ has an edge.