Kobe vs. MJ for the LAST TIME ALREADY!

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

houheffna wrote:

No need to go any further into this groundless argument...the fact that Kobe was never convicted notwithstanding...

True...in the past year I've really come to appreciate the philosophy of "innocent until proven guilty."

Here, where I'll be living for the next 9 days (we come home January 13!) it's just "guilty."

If you're accused of something, even if you didn't do it you're pretty much just guilty and that's it.

Another American couple who taught here last semester were kicked out of the school after two female students who didn't like him created this story and accused him of assault.

Though there was absolutely no proof or investigation (and not to mention, the accusation itself didn't make any sense on any level), they were thrown out just because there was an accusation made

America has flaws and her people make mistakes just like anyone else but we do have "innocent until proven guilty."

Fortunately for Kobe Bryant, though he did something most of us would agree he shouldn't have done, he WAS decided to be innocent of what he was being accused of and now he doesn't have to spend the rest of his life in prison for something he didn't do.

If he was indeed innocent then I am happy for him.

Obviously sometimes people like to take advantage of that and with smooth talking, clear those who DO happen to be guilty but most of the time "innocent until proven guilty" is way under-rated in my opinion.

Let's never take our liberties for granted.

 

[fola]

Kush77 wrote:

So Chamillionaire got dissed by Jordan. A millionaire rapper, who probably has quite an ego himself, got dissed by Jordan. It really doesn't bother me when celebrities/millionaries, have squabbles. Like Jordan/Krause. They all have giant egos and they all have a sense of entitlement.

Hah, you know you're probably right. I actually don't know that much about him. But I do know that when the fort hood shootings went down that he was one of the main celebs behind the concert/comedy thing they did (maybe david spade too)for some of the victims and serviceman, which I thought was cool. But I digress. The only reason I posted it is because it best depicts best what many of the people I spoke of brought up.

But again, I don't know if the guys you played with were talked to directly by him - on or off the court - etc.. I would agree that he shouldn't try to go out of his way to make a D-league guy feel bad. Maybe that goes to the competitive thing. But that's not always an excuse.

Part of me wishes that I was a psychologist so I could really diagnose whatever his 'issues' are. I can say that no matter how good I was ever playing with you guys or anyone else, I've never felt the need to yell things like 'I'll guard the ***!'. And that's probably the tamest of them. I'll gladly tell you more if you like, the next time we play. My thing is.. for someone who is already a 'giant', why does he feel the need to make everyone feel so small?

I still think to say Jordan is flawed is harsh.

I don't.

 

[Kush77]

fola wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

I've never felt the need to yell things like 'I'll guard the ***!'.

That's what Fred said to me the first time we played together.

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

If Pfeiffer said that to me in a game I'd light him up for 50 and block every one of his shots.

Nobody talks to Frank Breakfast-Styleham like that.

 

[Kush77]

JayJohnstone wrote:

This is a basketball board, right? I assume we really don't want to judge player's personal flaws. I assume we really want to discuss how such flaws would effect their basketball team.

Jordan's last full 6 seasons with the Bulls resulted in 6 basketball championships. I really don't see how his personal flaws were a detriment to the Bulls. In fact, and this is just my opinion, much of his personal flaws centered around his competitiveness which is why he was the best and why his team's won (when there was sufficient talent surrounding him).

If this thread isn't about basketball, but it's about personal flaws and who Mike didn't sign an autograph for, could someone just state that and I can stop wasting my time. I don't think anyone is arguing that Mike doesn't have his personal flaws and his demons.

Good point Frank. At least MJ never pulled a gun on Brad Sellars :laugh:

 

[houheffna]

I still think to say Jordan is flawed is harsh.

Actually to say that he is flawed is to say that he is human...the reactions behind it by his fans to such a statement suggests that he is not flawed and he is superhuman and beyond reproach.

When the statement is made that Jordan is flawed...a statement people would readily make about any other athlete, the response is negative. The fact is "Be Like Mike" works on the court...but in other phases of life, I wouldn't say he is such a great example. It doesn't matter what Chamillionaire's financial status is because I don't believe Jordan knew who he was. So you saying if you were there in Chamillionaire's place he would have taken a picture with you? At that moment in time? I doubt it...

 

[JayJohnstone]

houheffna wrote:
It doesn't matter what Chamillionaire's financial status is because I don't believe Jordan knew who he was. So you saying if you were there in Chamillionaire's place he would have taken a picture with you? At that moment in time? I doubt it...

houheffna wrote:
The flaws I speak of are on the court and not a bunch of crap..

:lol: Wrong and Wrong!

 

[JayJohnstone]

houheffna wrote:
I have told stories on here before about how Jordan treated teammates...not going to regurgitate but I just found that statement unbelievable...and sad.

Still waiting as to how this caused the Bulls to be worse. 6 championships in his last 6 full years as a Bull.

 

[houheffna]

Whatever dude...like my homey told me, don't argue this stuff with irrational people who want to see MJ as more than what he is...another human being.

When told it was Chamillionaire Jordan said "I don't give a ****" he would probably say the same thing if told "Hey, I am Jay Johnstone...I just bought your jockstrap and I am wearing it right now"....he wouldn't care then either...probably snap off on you more.

A lot of those guys do things like that...ask Jordan to name one Chamillionaire song...he doesn't care...dude is insignificant to him. Jordan has an immense ego...like most professional athletes...he is not perfect on the court or off the court which makes him FLAWED!!!

Sorry to piss in your cornflakes...you can keep drinking gatorade and "be like Mike"....good luck with that.

 

[houheffna]

Still waiting as to how this caused the Bulls to be worse. 6 championships in his last 6 full years.

You are changing the subject dude...its pointless....

 

[JayJohnstone]

houheffna wrote:
Whatever dude...like my homey told me, don't argue this stuff with irrational people who want to see MJ as more than what he is...another human being.

When told it was Chamillionaire Jordan said "I don't give a ****" he would probably say the same thing if told "Hey, I am Jay Johnstone...I just bought your jockstrap and I am wearing it right now"....he wouldn't care then either...probably snap off on you more.

A lot of those guys do things like that...ask Jordan to name one Chamillionaire song...he doesn't care...dude is insignificant to him. Jordan has an immense ego...like most professional athletes...he is not perfect on the court or off the court which makes him FLAWED!!!

Sorry to piss in your cornflakes...you can keep drinking gatorade and "be like Mike"....good luck with that.

It's comical that you have time to type that but not your award-winning arguement that is lost in cyberspace. :lol:

 

[houheffna]

It's comical that you have time to type that but not your award-winning arguement that is lost in cyberspace.

??????????????????????????

What's funny is that you are acting like you don't know what it means when Phil says Kobe has more skills than Jordan when asked Phil says "he does"...case closed!

Being that they are both shooting guards...what skills do you think Phil is talking about?

 

[JayJohnstone]

houheffna wrote:

It's comical that you have time to type that but not your award-winning arguement that is lost in cyberspace.

??????????????????????????

What's funny is that you are acting like you don't know what it means when Phil says Kobe has more skills than Jordan when asked Phil says "he does"...case closed!

Being that they are both shooting guards...what skills do you think Phil is talking about?

Why do you think they called him the Zen Master? He said about 10 advantages that Jordan has over than Kobe and mentioned Kobe maybe was better shooting from the outside. And you think Phil is supporting Kobe over MJ. Nice!

 

[TheStig]

JayJohnstone wrote:

houheffna wrote:

It's comical that you have time to type that but not your award-winning arguement that is lost in cyberspace.

??????????????????????????

What's funny is that you are acting like you don't know what it means when Phil says Kobe has more skills than Jordan when asked Phil says "he does"...case closed!

Being that they are both shooting guards...what skills do you think Phil is talking about?

Why do you think they called him the Zen Master? He said about 10 advantages that Jordan has over than Kobe and mentioned Kobe maybe was better shooting from the outside. And you think Phil is supporting Kobe over MJ. Nice!

Exactly, who is more important to Phil, the guy who led his team to 6 rings, helped create his legacy, was incredibly loyal to him and was the best player in history or the guy who was a key piece in three titles, helped break up the team and led them to one when they should have won more with shaq.

 

[houheffna]

Exactly, who is more important to Phil, the guy who led his team to 6 rings, helped create his legacy, was incredibly loyal to him and was the best player in history or the guy who was a key piece in three titles, helped break up the team and led them to one when they should have won more with shaq.

What the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING we are talking about here? Go ask Phil that question.


I think Phil looks at his importance to them moreso than their importance to him....and he doesn't have a jaded view of Kobe as you and others on this forum have.

Some people on here think Phil walked away from Jordan and more championships. Helped create his legacy? What is Phil's legacy? Kobe didn't help create that? This argument makes no sense at all...

Their are plenty of basketball people who are NOT biased who share the same views as Phil Jackson concerning the two. Phil has consistently said for some time now that on the court, Kobe had better fundamentals...having big hands is not a fundamental of basketball.

Just recently, Phil said Kobe was as good as Jordan in clutch situations...why? Because he is the Zen Master or because its true? It makes no sense to fabricate these lies if in fact Kobe has already admitted who the best ever is. When comparing the two he talked about physicality and stats...not fundamentals. At the beginning of the interview he said that Kobe was more skilled...period. That IS the evidence.

The crap on this forum is from people who want to put a spin on what Phil Jackson said like you are qualified to do so...if he didn't like or respect Kobe he wouldn't have come back and coach him. But Phil believes he has the best player in basketball and knows he can win 6 championships with Kobe possibly before its over.

 

[JayJohnstone]

houheffna wrote:
Phil has consistently said for some time now that on the court, Kobe had better fundamentals...having big hands is not a fundamental of basketball.

Jackson never said that to my knowledge. I suppose this is something else you heard but can't prove. In the category, Bobby Knight said MJ was underrated because most people had no clue how fundamentally good MJ was due to his incredible athletic ability.

houheffna wrote:
...having big hands is not a fundamental of basketball.

Really??? If you listen to the video that you keep touting, Jackson said having "Millionare dollar hands" allowed MJ to be more effective on the interior than Kobe. Being effective on the interior is a basketball skill.

 

[houheffna]

houheffna wrote:
Phil has consistently said for some time now that on the court, Kobe had better fundamentals...having big hands is not a fundamental of basketball.

Jackson never said that to my knowledge. I suppose this is something else you heard but can't prove. In the category, Bobby Knight said MJ was underrated because most people had no clue how fundamentally good MJ was due to his incredible athletic ability.

houheffna wrote:
...having big hands is not a fundamental of basketball.

Really??? If you listen to the video that you keep touting, Jackson said having "Millionare dollar hands" allowed MJ to be more effective on the interior than Kobe. Being effective on the interior is a basketball skill.

Wow...you must be from another damn planet...he said Kobe has better sk....not going through that anymore...put the damn video up...believe what you want. Don't give a damn...

Post Offense is a skill...he has said Jordan was better inside and Kobe outside on the perimeter. Having big hands is not a fundamental of basketball...IT'S A DAMN PHYSICAL TRAIT!!!

 

[JayJohnstone]

houheffna wrote:

he said Kobe has better sk....not going through that anymore...put the damn video up...believe what you want. Don't give a damn...

That's hilarious. In that video, Phil mentions one thing that Kobe does better, outside shooting and here is what's better about MJ:
* MJ has a bigger body,
* MJ is stronger
* MJ had incredlbe hands, million dollar hands, being fouled and being able to make baskets; taking the ball to the baseket, getting hit and not losing control of the ball, being able to pick up the ball off the dribble
* Michael's interior game is better.
* MJ shot 49-50%. Kobe was never able to do that. That's a big difference. The shooting percentages are quite a bit different

If that's the best you got, I can live with that.

 

[houheffna]

Phil named one PART of basketball fundamentals...


The fundamentals of basketball are as follows

1. Dribbling
2. Passing
3. Shooting
4. Rebounding
5. Offense
6. Defense

While I have never heard him compare the two defensively, he really only compared the two offensively in this particular piece. So....

I am going to assume that Phil Jackson knows the fundamentals of basketball...coaching about 25 years now...10 championships...lets just say he has an idea of what basketball "skills" actually are...maybe can name 3 or 4 at least...

So when asked who is more skilled...he agrees that Kobe is more skilled the question was asked and he said that he agreed...as do I. He doesnt talk about passing, rebounding or any of those skills besides certain aspects of each player's offensive game.

Notice...big hands is not on the list...nor are any other physical traits...these are skills...physical traits can either help or hinder success in the fundamentals of basketball...depends on the individual. The fundamentals are just that...fundamentals. They are not the sum total of who is best as a player. The mental aspect is another part of the game that is huge in determining who the better player is. Shaq is bigger and stronger than Hakeem...Hakeem was a better skilled player in my opinion...better at most of the listed skills. Who is the better player?

You cannot look at stats to find that out...it isn't about who won the most championships....you have to watch the both of them play. Phil has given his opinion which I happen to agree with. I am happy with him being a reliable source that I can use to prove my point. Now if you want to call it crap...that is your problem...

Take it easy...

 

[JayJohnstone]

Dude, they never even used the word "fundamentals" in that clip. They sure as hell didn't come up with your list of 6 points. They used "basketball skills". As far as we know, Phil Jackson may think Steve Kerr has better "basketball skills" than either Jordon or Kobe. Maybe Phil thinks Kobe would do well in the All-Star game skills challenge. I thought the important part of the video is Phil talking about MJ's superiority as an athlete and how much more efficient Jordan is compared to Kobe.

I also do know that Phil Jackson never said to trade MJ like he told Lakers to trade Kobe. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/basketball/nba/10/12/jackson/index.html

Phil wrote, 'After practice I followed Kobe to the training room, asking him why he lied to me [about running]. He was being sarcastic, he said. Wrong answer. I wasn't in the mood. Believe me, I can't begin to imagine how difficult this whole ordeal has been for Kobe, but that doesn't mean I will allow myself to be the recipient of his displaced anger, especially when I've been firmly on his side since the Colorado story broke.

Now I was the one who was angry. I went upstairs to see Mitch in his office. Wasting no time, I went off on a tirade about the need to deal Kobe before the trading deadline in mid-February. "I won't coach this team next year if he is still here," I said emphatically. "He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."'

I do know that Phil Jackson never said MJ habitually lied. Same Link.

Phil wrote 'Ask Shaq to do something and he'll say: "No, I don't want to do that." But after a little pouting, he will do it. Ask Kobe, and he'll say, "okay," and then he will do whatever he wants'

What an ***. Same link. It will be interesting to see what Phil says about Kobe again when he is no longer Kobe's coach.