Let's try this again: Best player not inducted to HoF yet?

[JosMin]

Parameters are to leave out any guy who can't shake the PED cloud (Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, etc.). Do not talk about current players or guys who are not yet eligible (Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, etc.). And so we don't get pissing contests and pillow fights, please CITE your reasons, statistics, articles, etc. This should be a fun debate, either way.

I've already said my peace on Mike Piazza (greatest offensive catcher ever), Alan Trammell (parallels to HoFer Barry Larkin are too eerie for him to not get in) and Edgar Martinez (phenomenal splits, one of the best hitters of the 90s)

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

As mentioned before the close, I was going to attempt to make a case for Andres Gallaraga, but after looking more at his stats, I don't think it is worth it.

 

[FirstTimer]

I saw Prope/Pretentious mention Andres..then not mention him.

Career peak was way too short and just doesn't have the counting stats really.

X bringing up Kevin Brown was interesting and I dismissed it pretty quickly but he's pretty statistically similar to Curt Schilling overall and I'm a guy who thinks Schilling goes in. Granted Schil has 3 WS's titles and multiple epic playoff performances...so that's a pretty big difference.

 

[FirstTimer]

I just don't get the Minoso thing. Nothing jumps out.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

I saw Prope/Pretentious mention Andres..then not mention him.

Career peak was way too short and just doesn't have the counting stats really.

Yeah, I just always remember him as a good player, but once I looked him up on BR I saw my mistake. I would have thought he'd have well over 400 HRs, but that isn't the case. The amount of strikeouts he had was pretty disturbing as well.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Biggio- 3,060 hits. No brainer. Who else is left out of the Hall who is not on your "do not talk about" list has 3,000+?

 

[FirstTimer]

Biggio- 3,060 hits. No brainer. Who else is left out of the Hall who is not on your "do not talk about" list has 3,000+?

For the 3rd time. Are you saying Biggio is the best player not in the HOF?

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

It keeps getting better.

 

[FirstTimer]

Yeah, I just always remember him as a good player, but once I looked him up on BR I saw my mistake. I would have thought he'd have well over 400 HRs, but that isn't the case. The amount of strikeouts he had was pretty disturbing as well.

Larry Walker was pretty damn good. Look into him. He's a Rockie. Close enough!

 

[JosMin]

Biggio- 3,060 hits. No brainer. Who else is left out of the Hall who is not on your "do not talk about" list has 3,000+?

I think Biggio is a a guy who benefited from having some epic lineup protection (Bagwell, a young Lance Berkman, Ken Caminiti) and was blessed enough to always be healthy. Defensive metrics point to him being a very average defensive player both behind the plate and at second. He also spent time in left field when he got older and lost his twitch reaction speed for second base. The 3000+ hits is certainly impressive, and his slash line is nice for a second baseman, but when you compare him to other second base contemporaries like Ryne Sandberg, Jeff Kent, Roberto Almoar, etc., I just don't think Biggio is quite that good. I still think he gets in, but I feel like he'll end up on some "Worst Hall of Famers" list sometime in the future.

 

[FirstTimer]

Nvm for some reason thought Murray wasn't in.

whoops

 

[FirstTimer]

http://baseballpastandpresent.com/2013/01/02/50-baseball-players-hall-fame-version-3-0/


This author has Tim Raines, followed by Biggio, Bagwell, Shoeless Joe, and Trammell

 

[X]

http://baseballpastandpresent.com/2013/01/02/50-baseball-players-hall-fame-version-3-0/


This author has Tim Raines, followed by Biggio, Bagwell, Shoeless Joe, and Trammell

I read that article earlier -- and was amazed Brown wasn't on that list (I don't believe, might've missed it)...Overall, it's a pretty good list imo.

 

[FirstTimer]

I read that article earlier -- and was amazed Brown wasn't on that list (I don't believe, might've missed it)...Overall, it's a pretty good list imo.

He's 35th

35-Tie. Kevin Brown, 67 votes (Does he belong in the Hall of Fame? 38 yes, 27 no, 2 N/A), written by Bill Ivie, president of the Baseball Bloggers Alliance:

Kevin Brown is an interesting case when we look at “bubble” Hall Of Fame candidates. He carries with him a pedigree of postseason success, a frequency of “that other guy” accomplishments, and statistical success that is on par with elite players during his time.

Taking a bit deeper look, we can see that Brown achieved the status of All Star six times in his career, spanning both leagues with one appearance in the American League and five in the National League. His career spanned 19 seasons and he accomplished over 200 wins during that time span. His career numbers boast over 200 wins (211), over 2,300 strikeouts (2,397), an impressive career earned run average (3.28) and over 3,200 innings pitched (3,256.1). While we are into a generation of pitchers that will, most likely, struggle to ever produce another 300 win pitcher, a player with more than 200 suddenly becomes in the discussion of the true “elite.”

Brown was never able to accomplish the pinnacle of awards as a pitcher, however, he did finish with second (1996), third (1998) and sixth (1992, 1999, 2000) in Cy Young voting during his career. Add to that, he was able to place in the top 25 in Most Valuable Player voting twice (1996, 1998).

He sports the coveted World Series Champion title, having won with the Florida Marlins in 1997 as well as finding his way back to the post-season as a member of the Padres in 1998 and the Yankees in 2004.

Is Brown truly a Hall Of Famer? Probably not. Is he among the best players that are not in Cooperstown? Very much so.

(Brown’s places in first two years of project: 2011 – 35th; 2010 – 38th-Tie)

 

[X]

He's 35th

I stopped reading @ 30. That's my fault. :lol:

Thx

 

[Parade_Rain]

I think Biggio is a a guy who benefited from having some epic lineup protection (Bagwell, a young Lance Berkman, Ken Caminiti) and was blessed enough to always be healthy. Defensive metrics point to him being a very average defensive player both behind the plate and at second. He also spent time in left field when he got older and lost his twitch reaction speed for second base. The 3000+ hits is certainly impressive, and his slash line is nice for a second baseman, but when you compare him to other second base contemporaries like Ryne Sandberg, Jeff Kent, Roberto Almoar, etc., I just don't think Biggio is quite that good. I still think he gets in, but I feel like he'll end up on some "Worst Hall of Famers" list sometime in the future.

Yep. I understand where you are coming from with the defensive perspective. He came up as a catcher. He got moved to 2B because he was average as a catcher, they needed his bat and wanted to keep him healthy, IIRC. As for defense not being on par with others like Sandberg, outside of Ozzie Smith, how many people make it into the HoF based upon defense?

 

[JosMin]

Yep. I understand where you are coming from with the defensive perspective. He came up as a catcher. He got moved to 2B because he was average as a catcher, they needed his bat and wanted to keep him healthy, IIRC. As for defense not being on par with others like Sandberg, outside of Ozzie Smith, how many people make it into the HoF based upon defense?

Well, defense is half the equation. I fully understand they moved him due to preserving his knees and wanting his bat in the lineup more often. In this instance, Sandberg, Kent and Alomar were all better defenders than Biggio. It isn't a stretch to say that those three guys were elite defensively (especially Sandberg and Alomar, who're two of the greatest defensive second basemen ever). I just think Biggio's overall resume, outside of 3000 hits, is extremely light. Like I said, I still think he's getting in, but he'll certainly join Jim Rice as one of the crummiest HoFers.

 

[SilenceS]

Larry Walker was pretty damn good. Look into him. He's a Rockie. Close enough!

I think Walker is going to get the ole he played in Colorado so his stats aren't as good as others. He doesn't have many of the benchmarks. He has under 400 homers and under 250 in steals. His Average and OBP is good and 7 GG is nothing to sneeze at but I just don't think he gets there.

 

[JosMin]

I think Walker is going to get the ole he played in Colorado so his stats aren't as good as others. He doesn't have many of the benchmarks. He has under 400 homers and under 250 in steals. His Average and OBP is good and 7 GG is nothing to sneeze at but I just don't think he gets there.

He played half his games in Montreal and St. Louis, so I don't think the Colorado argument has too much merit. In my eyes, he's close -- great slash line (he's 16th all time in OPS), a horribly underrated defensive player, three batting titles in the heart of the PED era, 55th all-time in WAR for position players, 73rd in adjusted OPS, and 60th in home runs. I think the biggest drawbacks to Walker is the fact that he had some serious injury concerns throughout his career and he never had any sustained postseason success, but that can essentially be contributed to being on horrible teams.

 

[nwfisch]

Pete Rose.