Let's try this again: Best player not inducted to HoF yet?

SilenceS

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He played half his games in Montreal and St. Louis, so I don't think the Colorado argument has too much merit. In my eyes, he's close -- great slash line (he's 16th all time in OPS), a horribly underrated defensive player, three batting titles in the heart of the PED era, 55th all-time in WAR for position players, 73rd in adjusted OPS, and 60th in home runs. I think the biggest drawbacks to Walker is the fact that he had some serious injury concerns throughout his career and he never had any sustained postseason success, but that can essentially be contributed to being on horrible teams.



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20130111/larry-walker-hall-of-fame/

The park factors into a good bit of writers thoughts. He has over a 1.000 OPS at home in his career and a .865 on the road. Im not arguing it was the park. I just think people will downplay some of his numbers because he did most of his damage while he played for Colorado.
 

JosMin

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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20130111/larry-walker-hall-of-fame/

The park factors into a good bit of writers thoughts. He has over a 1.000 OPS at home in his career and a .865 on the road. Im not arguing it was the park. I just think people will downplay some of his numbers because he did most of his damage while he played for Colorado.

I just don't think it's fair to penalize a player because of where he played. It's not like Larry Walker was the foreman when Coors Field was built. It always seems like it's position players getting the bad rap, there are tons of pitchers who benefited from playing all their home games in a pitcher's park.
 

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SilenceS

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I just don't think it's fair to penalize a player because of where he played. It's not like Larry Walker was the foreman when Coors Field was built. It always seems like it's position players getting the bad rap, there are tons of pitchers who benefited from playing all their home games in a pitcher's park.

I agree, but I will say this. When the Cubs beat the Rockies 3-1 the other day. Len said that the winning team scoring 3 runs or less has only happened like 4 or 5 times in Colorado franchise history. It has a factor, but you play where they pay you. I get it. I just think a good bit of writers see it different.
 

JosMin

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Watching Lee Smith play, whenever he came into a game I never felt "this game is over". Many times Smith would screw around and let runs score (yet still get the save). My perception of Smith just isn't one of "dominance" like an Eckersley or even a Henke had. Perhaps the stats prove otherwise, I don't know. But at first glance I would vote against Smith for making Cooperstown.

The Lee Smith argument is interesting because saves meant dick up until 30 years ago. Relief pitchers were always asked to throw multiple innings and the idea of a "save" was comical to most baseball fans. He was certainly a very, very good pitcher, but when you really take a close look at this numbers, I don't think he's even in the discussion for one of the five best closers ever. And honestly, top 10 is probably a stretch, too. His save total is kind of like Biggio's hit total -- it's a jaw-dropping number when it stands alone, but when you get out the microscope and go from stat to stat, it's really underwhelming.

His ERA of 3.03 is bad for an elite closer -- Mariano Rivera (2.20), Billy Wagner (2.31), Trevor Hoffman (2.87), Dan Quisenberry (2.76), Bruce Sutter (2.83), Rollie Fingers (2.90), and Hoyt Wilhelm (2.52) all had lower ERAs. Heck, even Dennis Eckersley had a 3.50 career ERA and he spent his first dozen seasons as a starter. He didn't average a strikeout per inning, which is generally a staple of a hammer closer. His career WHIP was 1.25, which is fine for a starter...but he's a closer. He trails the likes of Rivera, Sutter, John Franco, and Wilhelm in adjusted ERA and the two times he was in the postseason, he was dreadful.

His numbers just don't bowl you over. And when you look at the voting history, he's essentially plateaued between 40 and 50% -- I just don't think the case is strong enough to warrant him being in.
 

czman

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As others have said, Biggio would be one of the weakest HOFers, and IMO he is easily the worst hitter amongst the 3000 hit group. I guess he should make the HOF, but its more like "Hey, you played long enough to make the HOF, good job...moving on...".

Hold on. There are people that think Joe Morgan is one of the best 2nd basemen ever.

Biggio played fewer season, had more RBIs, Runs scored, HRs, BA, SLG.

When you compare him to other 2nd baseman it is hard to consider him a weak HOFer. It is not like he was a 1b man. He was a lead off hitter. Biggio deserves to be in the HOF. Being the worst hitter to get 3000 hits is not a bad thing. That is like being the guy with the least amount of power to hit 500 HRs.

That is a very exclusive club.
 

JosMin

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Hold on. There are people that think Joe Morgan is one of the best 2nd basemen ever.

Biggio played fewer season, had more RBIs, Runs scored, HRs, BA, SLG.

When you compare him to other 2nd baseman it is hard to consider him a weak HOFer. It is not like he was a 1b man. He was a lead off hitter. Biggio deserves to be in the HOF. Being the worst hitter to get 3000 hits is not a bad thing. That is like being the guy with the least amount of power to hit 500 HRs.

That is a very exclusive club.

Biggio played in fewer seasons, but also played in nearly 200 more games than Morgan. Joe Morgan is also a two-time MVP, won two World Series, appeared in two more, a superior defender, stole more bases, had a much better OBP and struck out nearly 700 times less than Biggio. Morgan is the superior player.
 

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Speaking of Bagwell's worthiness since he is on some people's list as the best left out...

Doyle has an interesting commentary about him on cbssports.com. I'm not certain I agree with the entirety of his article, but he raises some good points.

There can't be much debate about his actual worthiness, right? He's the only player in MLB history with 30 home runs, 100 RBI, 100 runs and 100 walks in six consecutive seasons. He was just the eighth player to win Rookie of Year and an MVP trophy. He's worthy.

http://www.cbssports.com/general/bl...e-from-cooperstown-a-result-of-probable-cause
 

czman

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Biggio played in a much more offensive-friendly era than Joe Morgan. Even with that in mind, Biggio's peak seasons were not as good as Morgan's.

Maybe I am underrating Biggio due to my perception of him at the time. I agree that he deserves to be in the HOF, but my overall point is that Piazza is more deserving.

Piazza played in the same era. When you compare Piazza to other Catchers you have the same problem. The standard for comparison should be the same.

I think both should be in. Not going to argue who deserves it more. Probably depends on what you value.

I just think calling him a weak HOF is inaccurate. He is #2 for HRs amongst 2B all time--I think.
 

SilenceS

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Biggio played in fewer seasons, but also played in nearly 200 more games than Morgan. Joe Morgan is also a two-time MVP, won two World Series, appeared in two more, a superior defender, stole more bases, had a much better OBP and struck out nearly 700 times less than Biggio. Morgan is the superior player.

No Cubs fan should ever praise Morgan. He hates the Cubs.
 

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Piazza played in the same era. When you compare Piazza to other Catchers you have the same problem.
No you don't

For god sakes people. Look at OPS+. It normalizes for league and park factors.


Morgan's OPS+ is 132
Biggio's is 112


Piazza's career OPS+ is 143
Bench is 126
Berra 125
Campenella 123
Cocrane 129
Hartnett 126
Dickey 127
Mauer 135
 

brett05

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As others have said, Biggio would be one of the weakest HOFers, and IMO he is easily the worst hitter amongst the 3000 hit group.

Someone has to be right?

I guess he should make the HOF, but its more like "Hey, you played long enough to make the HOF, good job...moving on...".

I hate this argument. It was used against Sutton too. Something has to be right for you to play a long time. I mean, who is the list of crappy or average ball players that play a long time? Off the top of my head it isn't many if any.
 

patg006

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Kinda deviating from the initial question. But the best player on the cubs not in to me is Lee Smith.

Otherwise--Shoeless Joe or Pete Rose.....

Biggio will get his.
 

brett05

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So here are three I think are worthy of consideration:

Tommy John
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnto01.shtml

288-233 (over 500 decisions), 6-3 sub 2.65 era in the playoffs, and is responsible for arguably the greatest medical advancement in the history of sports.

Dick Allen
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/allendi01.shtml

Compare his numbers to recently inducted hall of famer Ron Santo and you almost scratch your head why he didn't get in before Santo.
7x AS, ROY, MVP, 351 homers in a deader ball era of baseball

Dale Murphy
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/murphda05.shtml
7x AS, 398 HRs, Back to Back MVP, Played two of the hardest positions in baseball, 5X GG, and this from his son:

tysonmurphy.jpg

*sheds tear*
Ya know, I hate sports. Murphy was amazing in his prime.
 

brett05

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BTW, in my answer I am avoiding the likes of Biggio, Piazza, etc as they are still ballot eligible.
 

SilenceS

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No you don't

For god sakes people. Look at OPS+. It normalizes for league and park factors.


Morgan's OPS+ is 132
Biggio's is 112


Piazza's career OPS+ is 143
Bench is 126
Berra 125
Campenella 123
Cocrane 129
Hartnett 126
Dickey 127
Mauer 135

OPS+ does not count for complete OBP and does nothing for defense. You know the thing you harp about. Maybe I should give you a negative rep for being a one trick pony. OPS+ is not God and has its faults as well.
 

FirstTimer

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OPS+ does not count for complete OBP and does nothing for defense. You know the thing you harp about. Maybe I should give you a negative rep for being a one trick pony. OPS+ is not God and has its faults as well.

Wut? That I harp about? Cite this.

I never claimed it's "God". It's just rather stupid to sit here scratching our heads about how guys stack up across eras on offense when we have a stat that does that pretty decently.
 

czman

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Wut? That I harp about? Cite this.

I never claimed it's "God". It's just rather stupid to sit here scratching our heads about how guys stack up across eras on offense when we have a stat that does that pretty decently.

I am not even sure I know what you are referring too. All I stated was that it is not fair to say say an era excludes one persons accomplishments and not anthers.

Additionally, I never said that Biggio was better than Morgan or that Piazza did not belong in the HOF. I explicitly stated that I was not going to embark down that path.

All I stated is that Biggio would not be one of the weakest HOF.
 

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