Let's try this again: Best player not inducted to HoF yet?

[FirstTimer]

I talked about this with my dad last weekend when I was visiting with my parents -- sometimes it's even more fun to think about those guys who had ridiculously long careers but were never truly considered "great" players. A few of them have already been mentioned -- Johnny Damon, Bobby Abreu (both guys who are actually fun HoF debates. I don't think either of them are, but they're closer than you'd think), Torri Hunter, Juan Pierre, Mark Kotsay, Placido Polanco, and Raul Ibanez are all active or recently retired players with more than 1800 career games. I'd say all of them had good to great careers (Kotsay obviously being the crappiest on the list).

Torii Hunter will be really interesting. His offensive numbers don't jump out but you could make a case that for about a decade he was the best full time defensive CFer/OFer in baseball.

 

[Rice Cube]

I haven't read through yet. Did you guys talk about Kenny Lofton? He's not "great" per se but he had his moments. I don't recall if he fell off the ballot or was even eligible yet.

 

[brett05]

I haven't read through yet. Did you guys talk about Kenny Lofton? He's not "great" per se but he had his moments. I don't recall if he fell off the ballot or was even eligible yet.

he's eligible, but is off for only getting 3.2% which I think is a travesty. For the beginning of his career he was the best leadoff man in the game. I'm not saying he's should be in, but he should have had more than 3.2%

 

[brett05]

I talked about this with my dad last weekend when I was visiting with my parents -- sometimes it's even more fun to think about those guys who had ridiculously long careers but were never truly considered "great" players. A few of them have already been mentioned -- Johnny Damon, Bobby Abreu (both guys who are actually fun HoF debates. I don't think either of them are, but they're closer than you'd think), Torri Hunter, Juan Pierre, Mark Kotsay, Placido Polanco, and Raul Ibanez are all active or recently retired players with more than 1800 career games. I'd say all of them had good to great careers (Kotsay obviously being the crappiest on the list).

Yes, I would agree that they all had good to great careers. But not hall of fame cases, right?

 

[JosMin]

Yes, I would agree that they all had good to great careers. But not hall of fame cases, right?

The first three guys I listed I think could all be debated, but wouldn't get the nod from me.

 

[nwfisch]

What about a guy like Buherle?

Hall of good, right?

 

[Parade_Rain]

So looking at these long-timers' hit totals...

Damon 2769
Abreu 2437
Hunter 2105
Pierre 2201
Kotsay 1775
Biggio 3060
Polanco 2115
Ibanez 1960
Finley 2548

What sticks out the most on that list?

 

[FirstTimer]

So looking at these long-timers' hit totals...

Damon 2769
Abreu 2437
Hunter 2105
Pierre 2201
Kotsay 1775
Biggio 3060
Polanco 2115
Ibanez 1960
Finley 2548

What sticks out the most on that list?

Ibanez being below 2000

 

[JosMin]

So looking at these long-timers' hit totals...

Damon 2769
Abreu 2437
Hunter 2105
Pierre 2201
Kotsay 1775
Biggio 3060
Polanco 2115
Ibanez 1960
Finley 2548

What sticks out the most on that list?

The fact that Steve Finley clearly has the biggest wiener on the list. Dude was dope as fukkkkkk.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Ibanez being below 2000

I wondered if someone would provide that answer. That number stuck out at me, too, when I compiled those numbers.

 

[czman]

I guess I don't consider Biggio one of the greatest 2Bs of all-time. I wouldn't even consider Biggio to be better than Sandberg or Alomar, TBH. I'm sure Biggio has better counting stats, but I don't think he was the "greater" player, so to speak. And Joe Morgan was one of the best players in baseball regardless of position...I don't think Biggio was ever one of the best players of his era.

That is a complete non sequitur. Both Alomar and Sandberg are Hall of Famers so being not as good as them should not be a reason to be kept out. Biggio is not a top player at his position all time. I think he is probably around top 10-14. Not going to make a list. How long have they been playing baseball.....~130 years.

2nd all time in HRs for your position and 3k hits is something. He has a ton of Runs scored too. On top of all of this I don't think anyone thinks Biggio was on the juice.

The reality of your boy Mike Piazza is he was a butcher at catcher. He may be the best offensive catcher ever, but he was horrible when not in the box. When he gets into the HOF he might be the worst defensive player at his position in the HOF. He led the league in PB twice. He allowed ~1 SB a game for his career behind the plate. He threw out ~10 less than league average for his career. He was never very good at calling games IMO. The other problem is he played during the steroid era. There might be people that think he was a juicer. I have no clue. Just throwing it out there.

I think they both belong in the HOF. Let's not pretend though that Piazza is the best catcher to ever play. I think you can make a case that Ivan Rodriguez was just as good if not better than Piazza.

Johnny Evers is in the HOF, ergo it is impossible for Biggio to be the weakest player in the HOF.

 

[SilenceS]

Talk about a guy who had been around forever and just got hurt is Jason Marquis. I know this is about the hall, but I swear I feel that guy had been in the league for 12 plus years and is only 34.

 

[dabynsky]

Talk about a guy who had been around forever and just got hurt is Jason Marquis. I know this is about the hall, but I swear I feel that guy had been in the league for 12 plus years and is only 34.

He has been in the league for 12 years. Dude came up at 21.

 

[JosMin]

Can we turn this thread into a Steve Finley fap fest? Because that sounds like a great idea.

Also, I've just made my cup of tea for the morning, so I'm ready to roll.

What about Fred McGriff?

"Put me in the Hall, ass wipes! The Crime Dog ain't the kind of dog that licks his b-hole and drags his nuts on your wife's new rug!"​

I think McGriff is an interesting case. Certainly had some interesting career numbers. Link here. Nearly 2500 career hits, more than respectable .284/.377/.509 slash line with .889 career OPS (which puts him 79th all-time), 5-Time All-Star, he lead each league in home runs one time (AL in '89, NL in '92) which netted him 493 home runs. Very solid RBI, walk and run totals. His postseason numbers were also very, very good. Check 'em here.

His voting has plateaued between 18 and 23%, which to me is kind of a shame. There's certainly no "weak" part of McGriff's career -- he was always considered an above-average fielder but never won a Gold Glove. Part of it for me is that he never passed "the eye test". Playing in an era with Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmerio, Jim Thome, Jeff Bagwell and Mark Grace certainly don't make the task of separating yourself any easier. Still... I just don't know with McGriff. At the very least, I would figure he'd have more votes than the low 20 percent range. His name never popped up in the steroid stuff either, and unfortunately, that has to count for something now :dunno:

 

[FirstTimer]

Can we turn this thread into a Steve Finley fap fest? Because that sounds like a great idea.

Also, I've just made my cup of tea for the morning, so I'm ready to roll.

What about Fred McGriff?

"Put me in the Hall, ass wipes! The Crime Dog ain't the kind of dog that licks his b-hole and drags his nuts on your wife's new rug!"​

I think McGriff is an interesting case. Certainly had some interesting career numbers. Link here. Nearly 2500 career hits, more than respectable .284/.377/.509 slash line with .889 career OPS (which puts him 79th all-time), 5-Time All-Star, he lead each league in home runs one time (AL in '89, NL in '92) which netted him 493 home runs. Very solid RBI, walk and run totals. His postseason numbers were also very, very good. Check 'em here.

His voting has plateaued between 18 and 23%, which to me is kind of a shame. There's certainly no "weak" part of McGriff's career -- he was always considered an above-average fielder but never won a Gold Glove. Part of it for me is that he never passed "the eye test". Playing in an era with Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmerio, Jim Thome, Jeff Bagwell and Mark Grace certainly don't make the task of separating yourself any easier. Still... I just don't know with McGriff. At the very least, I would figure he'd have more votes than the low 20 percent range. His name never popped up in the steroid stuff either, and unfortunately, that has to count for something now :dunno:

FWIW I think McGriff was easily a better player than Mark Grace. What hurts McGriff with the voters and fans in general is they seem to forget his early really good years in Toronto and San Diego, and his late career years with Tampa and Chicago. The only real images you have of McGriff are as a Brave and that was short lived(even if it was a good stretch). I think people tend to get the idea he wasn't a real force except for those Atlanta years, when that's not the case at all.

Is McGriff a HOF'er? I don't know. If he went in I wouldn't fight it as he wouldn't be the worst HOF'er in, but I'm not going to campaign for him besides saying I think people severely underrate his career.

 

[brett05]

Fred was 7 taters away from an auto bid in thanks to not being linked to steroids. He's a real tweener. And it was unfortunate that he played in the golden era of first basemen.

 

[FirstTimer]

I heard Tom Emanski was a supplier.

McGriff just wasn't a spectacular enough hitter as a 1B IMO to be a HOFer, especially in that era. I agree that he should be much higher than 20% in the balloting...I could see someone making a case for McGriff based on his regular season and postseason stats. But only having 5 all-star appearences is kind of indicitive of his "good not great" career, in some ways.

Pretty fair. But 1b was so deep during the 90's with roiders and non roiders it was pretty tough to break through. It's kind of like Reggie Miller being a no duh HOF'er but having only 5 ASG's because in the Eastern Conference one spot was always locked up by Jordan. McGriff was always battling having to go for basically one spot with Thomas, Bagwell, etc locking down one spot from the seasons first pitch.

 

[brett05]

I heard Tom Emanski was a supplier.

McGriff just wasn't a spectacular enough hitter as a 1B IMO to be a HOFer, especially in that era. I agree that he should be much higher than 20% in the balloting...I could see someone making a case for McGriff based on his regular season and postseason stats. But only having 5 all-star appearences is kind of indicitive of his "good not great" career, in some ways.

The problem is you can only take so many first basemen

 

[JosMin]

FWIW I think McGriff was easily a better player than Mark Grace. What hurts McGriff with the voters and fans in general is they seem to forget his early really good years in Toronto and San Diego, and his late career years with Tampa and Chicago. The only real images you have of McGriff are as a Brave and that was short lived(even if it was a good stretch). I think people tend to get the idea he wasn't a real force except for those Atlanta years, when that's not the case at all.

Is McGriff a HOF'er? I don't know. If he went in I wouldn't fight it as he wouldn't be the worst HOF'er in, but I'm not going to campaign for him besides saying I think people severely underrate his career.

I agree. Like I said, his contemporaries certainly didn't make it easy on him. His career totals are also certainly a product of having a long, productive career where he never really got hurt. It's also really interesting that Baseball-Reference says the four most similar players to him at first base are Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell -- two current HoFers and two future HoFers. Hmmmm....

 

[FirstTimer]

I agree. Like I said, his contemporaries certainly didn't make it easy on him. His career totals are also certainly a product of having a long, productive career where he never really got hurt. It's also really interesting that Baseball-Reference says the four most similar players to him at first base are Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell -- two current HoFers and two future HoFers. Hmmmm....

Yeah McGriff is an odd evaluation.

His career similarity scores are flush with HOF'ers/future HOF'ers(the only 2 of the 10 that aren't getting in are Gallaraga and Giambi..and Giambi is because of roids, Andres just never put enough seasons together of peak production). His season by season ones have no HOFers'. Black ink and gray ink he's not there. HOF Monitor and HOF Standards he's pretty much in.

JAWS he is just short.

You can really easily make an argument for him, but your heart really isn't in it most times.