Let's try this again: Best player not inducted to HoF yet?

[czman]

Biggio played in fewer seasons, but also played in nearly 200 more games than Morgan. Joe Morgan is also a two-time MVP, won two World Series, appeared in two more, a superior defender, stole more bases, had a much better OBP and struck out nearly 700 times less than Biggio. Morgan is the superior player.

FFS. I never stated he was better. I stated he would not be one of the weakest HOF. They are not the same thing.

 

[czman]

True, but I think relative to their peers, Piazza was a better hitter than Biggio. Morgan was a better hitter than Biggio. As I had said, Morgan's peak seasons were better than Biggio regardless of era. I think the same is true when Piazza is compared to Biggio.

No one has stated that Piazza is a worse hitter than Biggio. No one stated Biggio is better than Morgan.

Can people read?

Biggio would not be one of the weakest HOF because compared to his Peers (2Bs) he is near the top--just like Piazza when comparing him to Catchers.

There is more to baseball than OPS+ and hitting. Piazza should be in. Biggio should be in.

 

[KBIB]

Rose, Bonds, Sosa, and Piazza. In that order.



CHAMPS!!!

 

[brett05]

But its not really a glowing HOF recommendation to say someone "is not crappy or average". I think you can be above-average and play a long time in baseball and not necessarily be a HOF level guy. Sutton is kind of a good example of this...played a long time and was usually on very good teams, but was he regarded as one of the top pitchers in the game when he played?

He was in the conversation. The bottom of lists, but on the list nonetheless.

Like I said, to play a long time you have to do something right. longevity means you are doing it right in my eyes. Show me guys taht had it but weren't great players even. Skip above average all together.

 

[FirstTimer]

He was in the conversation. The bottom of lists, but on the list nonetheless.

Like I said, to play a long time you have to do something right. longevity means you are doing it right in my eyes. Show me guys taht had it but weren't great players even. Skip above average all together.

Ray Durham played for 15 years. He wasn't "great". That's one off the top of my head.

Define "long time". 10 years? 15 years?

Jeff Keppinger has been collecting a MLB paycheck for almost a decade at this point.

David Eckstein played for 10 years.

Chone Figgins has played for 11

 

[Parade_Rain]

As another example, Soriano has played a long time and there have already been discussions on this board that he doesn't have the numbers to qualify for getting in.

 

[brett05]

As another example, Soriano has played a long time and there have already been discussions on this board that he doesn't have the numbers to qualify for getting in.

I'm assuming FT posted the first guy.

As it relates to Soriano, 13 full seasons wouldn't be classified as someone playing a long time. I'm looking for the 18+ guys. Lots of guys get on the ballot for the Hall because all they need is ten and they are on IIRC

 

[JosMin]

Steve Finley -- dude played for 19 years, put up solid numbers, very nice defender and totally looks like that cool dad your friend in grade school had. I fucking wish I was Steve Finley.

 

[FirstTimer]

I'm assuming FT posted the first guy.

As it relates to Soriano, 13 full seasons wouldn't be classified as someone playing a long time. I'm looking for the 18+ guys. Lots of guys get on the ballot for the Hall because all they need is ten and they are on IIRC

:andruw:

Ok. Playing in MLB for over a decade "isn't a long time".

 

[brett05]

Steve Finley is a good example actually. Very nice career of being an average ball player. Very serviceable every day starter. No real numbers that say Hall of Fame. I see Steve as Being just at the bottom of the Hall of the Very Good. No one penalizes him for his longevity. But his longevity never gave him the numbers to put him in the Hall if he had done it in less time either. *shrugs*

 

[FirstTimer]

Johnny Damon(18)
Ruben Sierra(20)
Chilli Davis(19)
Bobby Abreu(17)
Willie Davis(18)
Dwight Evans(20)
Vada Pinson(20)
etc etc etc etc

 

[FirstTimer]

Marquis Grissom(17)
Devon White(17)
Amos Otis (17)
etc etc etc

 

[Parade_Rain]

Julio Franco got 1.1% of 2013 vote. Is that a good one? He played until he was 48.

 

[FirstTimer]

Julio Franco(23)

 

[brett05]

Julio Franco got 1.1% of 2013 vote. Is that a good one? He played until he was 48.

Another good candidate. Like Finley a lot. Given his 23 years he still has no Hall of Fame creds worth nothing, does he?

He still did things right and his longevity was not a hinderance to his Hall chances.

 

[brett05]

Longevity alone does not get you in, but it should never be seen as something that keeps you out.

 

[FirstTimer]

Another good candidate. Like Finley a lot. Given his 23 years he still has no Hall of Fame creds worth nothing, does he?

He still did things right and his longevity was not a hinderance to his Hall chances.

Longevity alone does not get you in, but it should never be seen as something that keeps you out.

No one is saying that.

 

[FirstTimer]

But what if we go back to the Lee Smith case...is Smith's great career save total tempered by the fact that he pitched for so many years and wasn't exactly "elite" for most of those years?

Exactly. If I was merely a good player for 20 years does that make me a great player overall?

I don't see how 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1=10

 

[brett05]

But what if we go back to the Lee Smith case...is Smith's great career save total tempered by the fact that he pitched for so many years and wasn't exactly "elite" for most of those years?

For me I have an extreme bias here so I can't comment on Lee without that bias. I'm actually incapable of "checking it out" when it comes to him so my opinion is useless.

 

[JosMin]

I talked about this with my dad last weekend when I was visiting with my parents -- sometimes it's even more fun to think about those guys who had ridiculously long careers but were never truly considered "great" players. A few of them have already been mentioned -- Johnny Damon, Bobby Abreu (both guys who are actually fun HoF debates. I don't think either of them are, but they're closer than you'd think), Torri Hunter, Juan Pierre, Mark Kotsay, Placido Polanco, and Raul Ibanez are all active or recently retired players with more than 1800 career games. I'd say all of them had good to great careers (Kotsay obviously being the crappiest on the list).