Let's try this again: Best player not inducted to HoF yet?

JosMin

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Let's throw out another guy who'll be a first-time eligible player for the 2014 ballot -- Mike Mussina.

Toronto+Blue+Jays+v+Baltimore+Orioles+ZjVr0LQtvARl.jpg

"Then there's THIS moron over here who doesn't think I'm worthy to be inducted into the Hall! I'm 24th all-time in pitcher WAR, I won 270 games and earned 7 Gold Gloves!"



In the bullpen era where no pitcher was ever supposed to sniff 300 career wins, Mussina was still able to sustain a memorable 18-year career with some interesting Hall-worthy statistics. It's incredible to believe that his first full-season and last full-season were arguably his two best. He was an incredibly durable pitcher (536 games started and 17 consecutive seasons with at least 11 victories) who ended up with 270 career wins, good for 33rd all-time. People continue to say a pitcher's win total is a meaningless stat, but I'm still a firm believer that it showcases a pitcher who consistently puts his team in the best possible position to win, much like a quality start.

Mussina amassed 2,813 strikeouts, good for 19th all-time. He also exhibited fantastic control, with a career K/BB ratio of 3.6. 5 All-Star appearances, 7 Gold Gloves and 6 Top-5 Cy Young voting seasons are other solid resume builders, but many other people will will point to a somewhat-pedestrian ERA and a lack of a World Series as two huge strikes against Mussina. He does, however have a career ERA+ of 123, better than Hall of Famers Bob Feller, Don Drysdale, Bert Blyleven, Gaylord Perry and Steve Carlton. People do need to keep in mind that Mussina spent his entire career pitching in Camden Yards and Yankee Stadium, two notoriously hitter-friendly parks, which is why ERA+ is key here.

One final thing I thought was really interesting when reading up on Mussina, I gathered from Louis Musto of SportsJourney.com. He was pleading his case as Mussina being a Hall of Fame-caliber guy --

The most impressive moments of Mussina’s career always came in the months of September and October when the pennant race was tight and his team needed him the most. He had a record of 44-21 with an ERA of 2.86, 517 strikeouts and only 130 walks.

At the end of the day, there are certainly some numbers that point to Mussina being worthy of Hall of Fame induction. I genuinely think he'll end up missing out during his years of eligibility. To me, he's always been a really, really good pitcher, but never a great one. He's a guy who exhibited phenomenal control, consistency and reliability, but never a prolonged stretch of dominance that is the mark of so many Hall of Fame pitchers.
 

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Let's throw out another guy who'll be a first-time eligible player for the 2014 ballot -- Mike Mussina.

Toronto+Blue+Jays+v+Baltimore+Orioles+ZjVr0LQtvARl.jpg

"Then there's THIS moron over here who doesn't think I'm worthy to be inducted into the Hall! I'm 24th all-time in pitcher WAR, I won 270 games and earned 7 Gold Gloves!"



In the bullpen era where no pitcher was ever supposed to sniff 300 career wins, Mussina was still able to sustain a memorable 18-year career with some interesting Hall-worthy statistics. It's incredible to believe that his first full-season and last full-season were arguably his two best. He was an incredibly durable pitcher (536 games started and 17 consecutive seasons with at least 11 victories) who ended up with 270 career wins, good for 33rd all-time. People continue to say a pitcher's win total is a meaningless stat, but I'm still a firm believer that it showcases a pitcher who consistently puts his team in the best possible position to win, much like a quality start.

Mussina amassed 2,813 strikeouts, good for 19th all-time. He also exhibited fantastic control, with a career K/BB ratio of 3.6. 5 All-Star appearances, 7 Gold Gloves and 6 Top-5 Cy Young voting seasons are other solid resume builders, but many other people will will point to a somewhat-pedestrian ERA and a lack of a World Series as two huge strikes against Mussina. He does, however have a career ERA+ of 123, better than Hall of Famers Bob Feller, Don Drysdale, Bert Blyleven, Gaylord Perry and Steve Carlton. People do need to keep in mind that Mussina spent his entire career pitching in Camden Yards and Yankee Stadium, two notoriously hitter-friendly parks, which is why ERA+ is key here.

One final thing I thought was really interesting when reading up on Mussina, I gathered from Louis Musto of SportsJourney.com. He was pleading his case as Mussina being a Hall of Fame-caliber guy --



At the end of the day, there are certainly some numbers that point to Mussina being worthy of Hall of Fame induction. I genuinely think he'll end up missing out during his years of eligibility. To me, he's always been a really, really good pitcher, but never a great one. He's a guy who exhibited phenomenal control, consistency and reliability, but never a prolonged stretch of dominance that is the mark of so many Hall of Fame pitchers.

This is exactly how I feel about him. Aside from his black ink numbers there really isn't much you can say about Mussina not getting in stats wise for his era. Perception wise he pitched in the AL during the reigns of guys like Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens etc. Easy to get lost in the shuffle at times but you look at how often he was a top 5 pitcher in Cy Young voting and he just kept lasting and lasting.

Another player with a long career where the career similarities are a bunch of HOF'er or future ones and the yearly similars are no HOF'ers but pretty damn good ones(Verlander, Gooden, Hudson, etc)

I think from about 1992-2003 He had about a 129 ERA+ which is pretty damn good.

I'd put Mussina in w/o hesitation. Then again I'm a Schilling mark so how can I say no to Moose and yes to Schill?
 

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This is exactly how I feel about him. Aside from his black ink numbers there really isn't much you can say about Mussina not getting in stats wise for his era. Perception wise he pitched in the AL during the reigns of guys like Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens etc. Easy to get lost in the shuffle at times but you look at how often he was a top 5 pitcher in Cy Young voting and he just kept lasting and lasting.

Another player with a long career where the career similarities are a bunch of HOF'er or future ones and the yearly similars are no HOF'ers but pretty damn good ones(Verlander, Gooden, Hudson, etc)

I think from about 1992-2003 He had about a 129 ERA+ which is pretty damn good.

I'd put Mussina in w/o hesitation. Then again I'm a Schilling mark so how can I say no to Moose and yes to Schill?

I've always thought they both belonged. People forget about 95-98 Schilling a lot.
 

JosMin

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I'd put Mussina in w/o hesitation. Then again I'm a Schilling mark so how can I say no to Moose and yes to Schill?

Schill had #DatSock. And he's probably one of the 5 greatest postseason starting pitchers ever. Those October digits are just silly. And so are the 3 World Series titles.
 

JosMin

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I've always thought they both belonged. People forget about 95-98 Schilling a lot.

Dude... Schilling's '98 season was just stupid. 15 complete games, 300 strikeouts, 268 innings pitched. I look at that as the last true "old school" pitching performance by a starter. And you know what's so fucking crazy about that season -- HE DIDN'T GET A SINGLE CY YOUNG VOTE!!!!!! Are you fucking serious!!!!!!!?!?!!!

:andruw:
 

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I've always thought they both belonged. People forget about 95-98 Schilling a lot.

I think you mean 97-2004.

142 ERA+
2 20 win seasons(leading the league in wins both times)
6 ASG's
2 WS's(WS MVP x 1)
Lead the league in WHIP x1
Lead in K/BB ratio 4 straight years
2nd in the Cy Young voting 3 times

Just dirty
 
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JosMin

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I think you mean 97-2004.

142 ERA+
2 20 win seasons(leading the league in wins both times)
6 ASG's
2 WS's
Lead the league in WHIP x1
Lead in K/BB ratio 4 straight years
2nd in the Cy Young voting 3 times

Just dirty

That's some veiny Dad dick shit right there. We're talking 1974 track shorts with the johnson hanging out as he runs power laps around the neighborhood in the beat-to-shit Saucony Jazz nasty.


He was a phenomenal pitcher.
 

JosMin

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In 2002, Curt Schilling struck out 316 batters versus just 33 walks.....

Mother-of_God.gif
 

JosMin

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In 2002, Curt Schilling struck out 316 batters versus just 33 walks.....

Mother-of_God.gif

People.... are you fucking reading this? That's a K/BB ratio of almost 10.... my butt is puckering just thinking about that shit.
 

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People.... are you fucking reading this? That's a K/BB ratio of almost 10.... my butt is puckering just thinking about that shit.

Randy Johnson's season that year is fucking stupid. He was nearly 11 bWAR. ERA+ of 195.
 

JosMin

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Just..... just go look at Pedro Martinez's 1997 through 2003 stats.

kawasaki3.gif
 

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Pedro 1997-2005:

187 ERA+
3 Cy Youngs(finished 2nd two other times)
6 ASG's
5 ERA titles
20 game winner twice, lead the league once
Lead league in K's 3 times
Lead league in ERA+ 5 times including a 291(?!)
6 WHIP titles
5 K/9 titles
4 K/BB titles
 

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Schilling, Pedro, and Johnson were so dominant. Pedro may have had the most dominant stretch in the history of the league.
 

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Schilling, Pedro, and Johnson were so dominant. Pedro may have had the most dominant stretch in the history of the league.

Randy Johnson 1993-2004(Break out the lube now for this 12 season stretch)

166 ERA+(peaks of 195 and 193)
5 Cy Youngs(including 4 straight, and came in 2nd 3 other times)
9 ASG's
4 ERA titles
20 game winner three times, lead the league once
Lead league in K's 8 times(including 4 straight seasons)
Lead league in ERA+ 6 times including a 291(?!)
3 WHIP titles
8 K/9 titles
1 K/BB titles
 

JosMin

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What pisses me off is that some asshole voters won't vote for Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez, out of some phony bullshit principal that "nobody should get in their first year." Come the **** on. There is literally no argument a person could formulate that would convince me that Martinez, Johnson, Maddux or Glavine shouldn't be a unanimous HoF induction.
 

JosMin

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BTW -- Pedro is second ALL-TIME in ERA+, behind Mariano Rivera. AKA -- he's got the highest ERA+ ever.

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JosMin

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Back on topic for the 2014 nominees. Nobody really ever talked about Jeff Kent, but isn't he one of the 10 greatest second basemen ever? I know, in my lifetime, the only guys I saw play who I'd rank ahead of him are Sandberg and Alomar.

Well above-average .290/.356/500 career slash line
377 home runs (most all-time among second basemen)
5-time All-Star
4-time Silver Slugger
2000 NL MVP (he beat out this ridiculous list of players.... some of those stat lines are mind-boggling)
1528 RBIs places him third among second basemen (behind Hornsby and Lajoie), including 8 100-RBI seasons
59.4 oWAR puts him ahead of Hall members Hank Greenberg, Jim Rice, Yogi Berra, Kirby Puckett and Orlando Cepeda

His peak seasons between '97 and 2005 stack up among any fellow second basemen's peak. Kent also had a very productive postseason career that was foiled by the allusive World Series championship. He got one shot in '02 with the Giants, were he hit .276 with 3 home runs, 6 runs and 7 RBIs. It was never really a doubt in my mind that Kent was a fantastic second baseman, but when you really look at his offensive numbers, he stacks up with the truly elite guys to ever play his position. With how loaded next year's ballot is going to be, I'm not sure he'll get the nod on his first try, but I certainly think he gets in within 5 years.
 

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