Losing Interest?

Enasic

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So now he goes over by a smidge? Do you know what the salary cap is? Any free agent that you sign whose bird rights you don't own, HAVE to fit under the cap. A few exceptions like min contracts and others exist but besides that, the only way to go over the cap really, is to re-sign your own guys and pay the tax. Reinsdorf has done this. It's not like he could go over the cap more than he did. It's not like he can just go out and sign player x for 90 mil dollars and go over the cap. It doesn't work that way. Like I said, the problem isn't money. It's acquiring enough high end talent. The CBA makes it difficult to do that, though. Not an unwillingness to pay money. Garpax are more than above average at their job. They seem like major douches personally. But they know what they're doing.
 

houheffna

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I can't blame Bulls management for Rose not being the player that he was. that is just injury based. I can blame them for not putting a balanced team on the court and running one of the best coaches in the NBA out of town.
You continue to ignore the facts...you sit here and sound like Van Gundy bloviating about Thibs during a Sunday afternoon telecast about what happened to Thibs. Thibs success was also their success. His failures are evident also. You don't want to notice them. Its a bit much.

And I wish people would stop with the "Reinsdorf is cheap" b.s. You have no evidence of this at all. Your statements about Reinsdorf seem more stereotype than any type of heartfelt analysis.

I can give dozens of ways he is not cheap...but I would like for you to show some proof of how miserly he is.
 

Axl Rose

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All I have to say is Shame on You! Losing interest after a 10-5 record? If everyone gave up before the end, no one would be a winner! I'm glad the Country we Live in was built and protected be by people that didn't "give up"!!!

Wave the white flag and hand in your nuts.... that's what I say!

you gonna donate them to the team? because they can use them
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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I can't blame Bulls management for Rose not being the player that he was. that is just injury based. I can blame them for not putting a balanced team on the court and running one of the best coaches in the NBA out of town.

You are just plain wrong.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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On topic but potentially a derail and bigger than just Bulls fandom...

I've noticed that younger generations(Y/Z) of sport(s) fans have almost no concept of sportsmanship compared to generations prior(including when older generations were in adolescence). Mainly from the position of the fans, because those who dedicate huge portions of their time to playing organized sports(not considering organized in this sense as pickup games/leagues) become a mixed bag anyways.

I think it's just the Chicago fan generalization that leads me to believe so. Sportsmanship is a lengthy definition in itself, and for whatever reason I see these younger fans only applying part of it if any. It's not a mix and match(being selective), it's an all of the above deal. Grace in winning, grace in losing, courtesy, respecting rules of the game for all parties, not kicking someone while they are down.

And of course, it's going to seem like I'm directing this at specific people in the thread(while I'm not). But see, that is also arguably part of being sportsmanlike in discussion, not taking indirect comments and making them personal.
I'll make an attempt at answering this*:

The problem I see you having (other than turning into your father) is that this is all pretty subjective. Grace in winning - what does that look like? I imagine my answer is going to be different than yours. We get 4 more people to answer what it means to them, we'll have 4 new answers. Courtesy - what's courteous in a sporting event? So again, I really don't think you've done much to begin a discussion other than yelling at the kids walking on your yard from your porch.

The younger generation? Are we talking about high schoolers, college, or the younger posters on this board? I know I've mentioned this before, but if I haven't, I referee football for the IHSA. So for at least nine Fridays throughout the Fall I deal with at least 22 high schoolers. I've seen more acts of good sportsmanship than I have bad. Quick story: a few seasons ago I worked a playoff game that going into the fourth quarter was tied. It has a hard hitting, physical game. On the first play of the fourth quarter the NT got rolled up on and tore his ACL. Who happened to help him to the sideline? The center for the other team that he had been battling all game long.

Now onto what I'm sure you're talking about: this board. Yeah, your (imo) loosely described idea of sportsmanship is probably not going to be found on a message board. You seemed surprised by this. In an earlier post I talked about the anonymity of things, and that is the issue. Look at the myriad posters on this board who refer to Aaron Rodgers, as Erin Rodgers. I'd like to know how many would actually call Mike McCarthy a 'fat ****' if they ever met him. It's the same on this board. The Hawk would piss himself before he ever tried to challenge John Paxson. Know why? Because we know who John Paxson is, and we don't know who The Hawk is.

So if you're looking for better sportsmanship, I'd get together with a few more mods and bring some tighter rules. I'd probably start banning more posters. Or, even simpler stop posting all together. Because it isn't a generational problem, it's an environmental problem.

* Though there isn't a single doubt in my mind that the answer will not be sufficient enough.
 

The Hawk

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Quote Originally Posted by The Hawk View Post

I can't blame Bulls management for Rose not being the player that he was. that is just injury based. I can blame them for not putting a balanced team on the court and running one of the best coaches in the NBA out of town.

You are just plain wrong.

Thibs record says otherwise. How many coaches had a better season record than Thibs over his days with the Bulls?
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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Thibs record says otherwise. How many coaches had a better season record than Thibs over his days with the Bulls?
HE WAS GIVEN 3 SEASONS MORE THAN THE AVERAGE NBA COACH GETS. I've already linked the article in this thread. How do you miss it? And help me out here, how many wins in the Conference Finals did his regular season record ink him? The answer is 1. Thibs was given more of a chance than nearly every coach on average in the League. What more did you want?
 

The Hawk

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You continue to ignore the facts...you sit here and sound like Van Gundy bloviating about Thibs during a Sunday afternoon telecast about what happened to Thibs. Thibs success was also their success. His failures are evident also. You don't want to notice them. Its a bit much.

And I wish people would stop with the "Reinsdorf is cheap" b.s. You have no evidence of this at all. Your statements about Reinsdorf seem more stereotype than any type of heartfelt analysis.

I can give dozens of ways he is not cheap...but I would like for you to show some proof of how miserly he is.



You do know that it was Reinny that was the biggest proponent and ramrod for installing the salary cap in basketball, don't you? Fact is that he won't spend any additional money if it exceeds his hard ass cap even to win a championship:(

Apparently TIME magazine agrees with me that Reinny is CHEAP:

per Wikipedia:


As a basketball owner, he has been described by Time as a "cheapskate",[32] a reference they also use for his baseball persona.[33] As of 1995, the time when Scottie Pippen was eager to either be traded or be rid of Krause, he had never renegotiated a contract.[31] As a baseball owner, he has had a reputation as one of the most militant, anti-union, hard-line owners.[11][34][35] Newsweek described him as "one of the hardest heads in the 1994 baseball strike".[31] In the baseball offseason between the 1992 and 1993 seasons, he completely abstained from the free agent market.[36] Reinsdorf was one of the last holdouts to the 1996 labor agreement that instituted the salary cap while retaining arbitration rights for the players.[37][38] His 1996 signing of Albert Belle made news because of his widely publicized general opposition to spiraling player salaries.[11] The $55 million signing was a turning point in the decision by the baseball owners to agree to revenue sharing.[39] The signing also made Reinsdorf the employer of the highest paid Major League Baseball player and highest paid professional basketball player (Jordan) at the same time.[11] Reinsdorf had just re-signed Jordan after the 1995–96 NBA season.[40] However, Jordan had been underpaid most of his career,[41] and Reinsdorf, who did not feel he could justify the $30 million salary from a business standpoint,[42] immediately realized he was going to soon feel buyer's remorse.[43] Even his most successful baseball team was not highly paid: when the White Sox won the 2005 World Series, Reinsdorf had the 13th highest payroll of the 30 Major League Baseball teams.[33]
 

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You do know that it was Reinny that was the biggest proponent and ramrod for installing the salary cap in basketball, don't you?
That's odd, given he wasn't owner of the Bulls until 1985 and the salary cap was instituted in the 1983 CBA.


Fact is that he won't spend any additional money if it exceeds his hard ass cap even to win a championship:(

The Bulls are exceeding the salary cap, and luxury cap right now.




As a basketball owner, he has been described by Time as a "cheapskate",[32] a reference they also use for his baseball persona.[33] As of 1995, the time when Scottie Pippen was eager to either be traded or be rid of Krause, he had never renegotiated a contract.[31] As a baseball owner, he has had a reputation as one of the most militant, anti-union, hard-line owners.[11][34][35] Newsweek described him as "one of the hardest heads in the 1994 baseball strike".[31] In the baseball offseason between the 1992 and 1993 seasons, he completely abstained from the free agent market.[36] Reinsdorf was one of the last holdouts to the 1996 labor agreement that instituted the salary cap while retaining arbitration rights for the players.[37][38] His 1996 signing of Albert Belle made news because of his widely publicized general opposition to spiraling player salaries.[11] The $55 million signing was a turning point in the decision by the baseball owners to agree to revenue sharing.[39] The signing also made Reinsdorf the employer of the highest paid Major League Baseball player and highest paid professional basketball player (Jordan) at the same time.[11] Reinsdorf had just re-signed Jordan after the 1995–96 NBA season.[40] However, Jordan had been underpaid most of his career,[41] and Reinsdorf, who did not feel he could justify the $30 million salary from a business standpoint,[42] immediately realized he was going to soon feel buyer's remorse.[43] Even his most successful baseball team was not highly paid: when the White Sox won the 2005 World Series, Reinsdorf had the 13th highest payroll of the 30 Major League Baseball teams.[33]

So let me get this straight.

He's a cheapass, but signed Albert Belle to the biggest contract in baseball at the time. He also gave Jordan 30 million a year for his last two seasons with the Bulls. He brought Pippen back at more than he was worth in 2003 and has given him a job in the Bulls organization.

And he's a cheapass because his 2005 World Series team was 13th/30 (which is above 17 other Major League teams mind you)? That Time article is horrible and if anything more so proves he's not that much of a cheapass.

As of 1995, the time when Scottie Pippen was eager to either be traded or be rid of Krause, he had never renegotiated a contract.

As to that point.. contracts aren't allowed to be renegotiated in the NBA. They never have been.
 
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Gustavus Adolphus

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You do know that it was Reinny that was the biggest proponent and ramrod for installing the salary cap in basketball, don't you? Fact is that he won't spend any additional money if it exceeds his hard ass cap even to win a championship:(

Apparently TIME magazine agrees with me that Reinny is CHEAP:

per Wikipedia:


As a basketball owner, he has been described by Time as a "cheapskate",[32] a reference they also use for his baseball persona.[33] As of 1995, the time when Scottie Pippen was eager to either be traded or be rid of Krause, he had never renegotiated a contract.[31] As a baseball owner, he has had a reputation as one of the most militant, anti-union, hard-line owners.[11][34][35] Newsweek described him as "one of the hardest heads in the 1994 baseball strike".[31] In the baseball offseason between the 1992 and 1993 seasons, he completely abstained from the free agent market.[36] Reinsdorf was one of the last holdouts to the 1996 labor agreement that instituted the salary cap while retaining arbitration rights for the players.[37][38] His 1996 signing of Albert Belle made news because of his widely publicized general opposition to spiraling player salaries.[11] The $55 million signing was a turning point in the decision by the baseball owners to agree to revenue sharing.[39] The signing also made Reinsdorf the employer of the highest paid Major League Baseball player and highest paid professional basketball player (Jordan) at the same time.[11] Reinsdorf had just re-signed Jordan after the 1995–96 NBA season.[40] However, Jordan had been underpaid most of his career,[41] and Reinsdorf, who did not feel he could justify the $30 million salary from a business standpoint,[42] immediately realized he was going to soon feel buyer's remorse.[43] Even his most successful baseball team was not highly paid: when the White Sox won the 2005 World Series, Reinsdorf had the 13th highest payroll of the 30 Major League Baseball teams.[33]
Just say you think he's cheap because he is Jewish and they are known to be cheap (which actually, in my experience, couldn't be further from the truth). We all know that is what you're trying to get at.
 

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It's the same on this board. The Hawk would piss himself before he ever tried to challenge John Paxson. Know why? Because we know who John Paxson is, and we don't know who The Hawk is.


Really? Why would I challenge John Paxson. I would say to his face that I thought he was a not very good general manager, though. As for pissing my pants, Maybe you do that but I don't. Only time I pissed my pants was in combat:)
 

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So now he goes over by a smidge? Do you know what the salary cap is? Any free agent that you sign whose bird rights you don't own, HAVE to fit under the cap. A few exceptions like min contracts and others exist but besides that, the only way to go over the cap really, is to re-sign your own guys and pay the tax. Reinsdorf has done this. It's not like he could go over the cap more than he did. It's not like he can just go out and sign player x for 90 mil dollars and go over the cap. It doesn't work that way. Like I said, the problem isn't money. It's acquiring enough high end talent. The CBA makes it difficult to do that, though. Not an unwillingness to pay money. Garpax are more than above average at their job. They seem like major douches personally. But they know what they're doing.

The problem is money. The Bulls very seldom exceed the salary cap and if they do it is a smidgeon. Ever hear of Jerry Buss? Did the salary cap prevent him from going over the cap if it meant getting him team to the championship(s). Did he waiver in bringing in the most successful head coach in the NBA to win him championships(Jackson)? COmpare that to cheap ass Reinsdorf.

Where Reinny was exposed for the prick he is was at the end of the 2nd championship run. The famous words "players do not win championships, organizations do" were amazingly stupid. SImply put, he didn't want to re-sign Michael for $30M per and felt Scottie was over-paid also. Not to mention Phil Jackson. The world saw two HOFers and the most successful NBA coach of all time pissed off at the two Jerry's and that started the big decline of the organization and the reason why top notch free agents don't wnat to play for the Bulls. Period. They want to be pampered as the stars that they are and just do not trust Reinny to be anyone committed to winning championships.
 

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The Bulls have been well over the salary cap for the last 5 years...how is that seldom?
 

Enasic

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The problem is money. The Bulls very seldom exceed the salary cap and if they do it is a smidgeon. Ever hear of Jerry Buss? Did the salary cap prevent him from going over the cap if it meant getting him team to the championship(s). Did he waiver in bringing in the most successful head coach in the NBA to win him championships(Jackson)? COmpare that to cheap ass Reinsdorf.

Where Reinny was exposed for the prick he is was at the end of the 2nd championship run. The famous words "players do not win championships, organizations do" were amazingly stupid. SImply put, he didn't want to re-sign Michael for $30M per and felt Scottie was over-paid also. Not to mention Phil Jackson. The world saw two HOFers and the most successful NBA coach of all time pissed off at the two Jerry's and that started the big decline of the organization and the reason why top notch free agents don't wnat to play for the Bulls. Period. They want to be pampered as the stars that they are and just do not trust Reinny to be anyone committed to winning championships.

Hawk, you just don't know what you're talking about. That's really what it comes down to. JR has gone over the cap as much as he could. You ignored the part that he just can't sign anyone he wants because of the CBA. The only way to go over the cap is by re-signing your own guys. Which he's done. Why don't you call Reily cheap when he was moving pieces left and right even though he HAD a championship team? Dude was avoiding the tax like a plague. And most likely lost LeBron because of it.

There's also a difference between "not wanting to pay 30 mil to Jordan" and actually PAYING 30 million a season which he did. I get it...you don't like Reinsdorf. That's fine. He doesn't seem very likable. You're frustrated that we haven't won a championship lately. I understand. Most teams in the league share your frustration. Believe it or not, part of winning boils down to luck. Luck in the draft, luck bringing in a free agent (if you're in position to have enough money under the cap), and luck during the season.
 

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The problem is money. The Bulls very seldom exceed the salary cap and if they do it is a smidgeon. Ever hear of Jerry Buss? Did the salary cap prevent him from going over the cap if it meant getting him team to the championship(s). Did he waiver in bringing in the most successful head coach in the NBA to win him championships(Jackson)? COmpare that to cheap ass Reinsdorf.

Where Reinny was exposed for the prick he is was at the end of the 2nd championship run. The famous words "players do not win championships, organizations do" were amazingly stupid. SImply put, he didn't want to re-sign Michael for $30M per and felt Scottie was over-paid also. Not to mention Phil Jackson. The world saw two HOFers and the most successful NBA coach of all time pissed off at the two Jerry's and that started the big decline of the organization and the reason why top notch free agents don't wnat to play for the Bulls. Period. They want to be pampered as the stars that they are and just do not trust Reinny to be anyone committed to winning championships.

The Bulls have been well over the salary cap for the last 5 years...how is that seldom?

Clone answered you.

Also I think we get it. You're mud as hell that the Bulls championship team broke up after 1998. And you want a scapegoat to blame for it.
 

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Well for the most part they've been closer to $20 million over anyway. :shrug:
Wait a second......are you suggesting that being over the salary cap doesn't automatically equate to winning titles?

But seriously folks, the Knicks have no problem paying the luxury tax, how well has that worked for him? Mark Cuban is more than willing to pay the luxury tax, it's resulted in exactly 1 championship.

EDIT: forgot the name James Dolan in re: Knicks
 
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