McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Ben G

[dougthonus]

Well thought out response. I believe that Rose will soon be comparable to Thomas. Gordon will NEVER EVER be Dumars. To pull off what that team did you have to GUARD people. Dumars was a much better 2 guard and a HOFer. Gordon cannot seem to make the all-star team. Believe me, I have felt this way for a while. I was screaming Brandon Roy at the television when Paxson drafted Tyrus Thomas. Why? Roy has the length and defensive prowess to give the opposing team's wing players problems. Artest gave Roy high compliments for a reason. Finally bottom line, Bulls vs. Cavs....Cavs in 4! 'Nuff said!

Gordon would be one of the best "second best" guards on a title team in the past 20 years. He's better than BJ Armstrong or John Paxson with the Bulls, better than the guys with the rockets, better than Derrick Fisher with the lakers, jason williams with the Heat.

Rajon Rondo, Rip Hamilton, Joe Dumars, and Manu Ginobili off the top of my head who I'd say could challenge Gordon as a "second best" guard on their team who was better than Gordon, and I think Rondo/Hamilton is really up for debate. I'd take Gordon over either guy, but they've had way better teammates which have made them more appreciated IMO.

So the real question isn't whether Gordon is good enough to be the second best guard on a title team, because he clearly is. Go look at most teams who are contenders, and ask "is their 2nd best guard better or worse than Ben Gordon", and the answer is no for the vast majority of them.

The real questions are "Is Rose good enough to be a #1 guard on a title team" and "Can the Bulls get a #1 big man on a title team". The answer to the second question is almost certainly no, and the answer to the first might be no as well, but we've got to hope for the best.

Of the playoff teams this year when comparing 2nd best guards to Gordon:
I'd say Gordon is better than the 2nd best guard on these teams for sure:
Lakers (Kobe/crap), Cavs (Mo Williams/crap), Magic (crap/crap), Nuggets (Billups/Smith), Mavs (Terry/Kidd), Hornets (Paul/crap), Pistons (stuckey/Hamilton), Blazers (Roy/crap), Heat (Wade/crap), Jazz (Williams/crap), Rockets (crap/crap)

Teams where it's debatable:
76ers (Miller/Iguodala), Hawks (Bibby/Johnson), Celtics (Rondo/Allen)

Teams that definitely have 2 better guards:
Spurs (assuming a healthy Manu)

I think Gordon vs the second best guard on these teams is a no brainer advantage for us in most cases. Our real issue for the past four years is that Gordon was our #1 guard.

If you can sign Gordon for 9 million, you will have an almost zero percent chance of finding a better player for 9 million elsewhere. I don't think you could name three players in the NBA who made less than 9 million per year on average of their extension who are better than Ben Gordon.

 

[dougthonus]

houheffna wrote:

I think that is the difference, I don't want him to generate an average product, I want a championship.

What is your plan to make that happen? Clearly we all want a championship team and not an average product. Your plan so far has been "don't overpay guys". I think we all agree that we don't want to overpay guys, that, by definition, is bad.

However, that portion of your plan doesn't do anything to make the team championship caliber, it so far just removes a lot of good players from the team because they may be overpaid.

How do you replace those guys with even better guys at the same non overpaid salary and raise the level of talent to championship caliber?

 

[houheffna]

How do I suggest they get better? Do the opposite of what they have been doing. Period. The plan didn't work. You have one player for your future, Rose. Do not fall in love with any other players. That is my suggestion. Great GMs can rebuild on the fly but sometimes you have to blow things up and start from scratch.


Rondo, Dumars, Hamilton, Ginobili could CHALLENGE Gordon? Are you serious? Rondo-better postseason, Dumars-not even going to dignify that with an answer, Hamilton-better on both sides of the court, Ginobili-better basketball player period. Didn't Brooks is having a nice postseason. It is interesting how other players on other teams can be called "crap" but when it comes to Gordon, not so much.

I would guess most of you would have liked D'Antoni here as coach too. Basketball's version of the "run and shoot" didn't work in football and I don't think it will work in basketball. You have to play defense.

And please, please, please dont compare Gordon to the man Jordan regarded as the single most important person to force him to improve his game and who he felt played him the toughest...it just aint right.

 

[chi_hawks_23]

Bottom line : Ben Gordon isn't going to win you a championship. But he is a piece that can get you closer to that championship.

I can't stress this enough to everyone, you put BG with a big time post scorer, and I guarantee both of them make the all-star game. If the big draws the double, Ben's going to have a warm up session type of night and drill 3's left and right. If they don't double the post, you allow your big to go 1 on 1, and have Noah cleaning up from the weakside.

Even if we don't upgrade our PF, you can also run pick and roll with Rose and leaving Ben out on the arc almost guarantees they cant play help defense as they aren't going to leave him there all alone. That in itself helps the offense as a whole. Right or wrong, Gordon is probably one of the best/deadliest 3point shooters in the land right now.

Ben does throw up some bad shots, no denying that. But a guy that can get you 20-25ppg, for under 10mil per year, thats crazy.

6yrs/54 mil is a steal. Period.

 

[houheffna]

Put BG with a big time post player....an you will have one frustrated post player.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Just because you have money does not mean you spend it on anything. The Bulls are more than willing to pay Garnett, Amare, the top players in the game and that is what they are waiting for. Reinsdorf is a business man and a very successful one, why? Because when given a surplus, he decides whether to spend it or put it in the bank. That is capitalism at its finest. He knows what he is doing, he has 7 world championships he has financed. He is pretty good at knowing championship product. Now as for hiring coaches, that is another thing entirely....

Well, I think in the last ten years he has been recording and pocketing record profits there had to have been an opportunity to spend and better the team. Do you disagree? And to be fair, 6 of those championships was because he lucked into the goat. Without MJ, he wouldn't have the brand awareness that he has now. Winning is what made MJ great and made the bulls the brand name they are today. And winning will generate even better profits but JR is happy not trying.

 

[houheffna]

They tried, remember the Tracy McGrady parade? Benny the Bull, throwing the first pitch at the Cubs game, Oprah? Kobe? Grant Hill? Garnett? They have gone after the top players in the game with checkbooks open. Reinsdorf has done that with BOTH sports franchises. He has taken chances when he thought it beneficial (Rodman), and nothing shows he won't continue to do just that.

 

[??? ??????]

The worst part about the "Let Ben Gordon walk to try to win a championship." is that not only is it detrimental to the Bulls, as they will have a massive talent loss, but if the Pistons don't step up with a big offer, than there is a good chance that Gordon just goes and signs with say the Cavs.

If we lowball Gordon and he signs with say the Cavs, we just wasted Derrick Rose. We're not winning a championship if that happens. The Bulls might not be scared of this (as evidenced by them not giving Gordon a fair contract offer in this scenario), but I'm definitely scared of a Lebron/Gordon tandem. We aren't winning a championship if Lebron gets Gordon next to him. No one else is probably either. But why put yourself in a position where winning a championship is near impossible, because that is what it will be like if you allow Gordon to go play with Lebron.

 

[houheffna]

The Cavs will invest in the frontcourt. They don't need Gordon. They just got Mo Williams and gave Delonte West a contract.

Seriously, if we lose Gordon we WASTE Derrick Rose? I dont think so.

 

[chi_hawks_23]

houheffna wrote:

Put BG with a big time post player....an you will have one frustrated post player.

Because Ben Gordon is gonna put up 75 shots a game by himself? Ben shot 46% from the field, and 41% from behind the arc this year. Thats with him taking contested shots, even double teams, as the Bulls have no other scoring option. Rose had his games here and there, but Ben was it when it came to a true scorer, and most people acknowledge that.

I understand some people just don't like Ben, that's fine. You may even think that if we add a solid post player, he will be upset because Ben will be hogging the ball. Fine.

My money is on Ben realizing that the quickest way to 25ppg is with open 3 pointers, not contested shots. For that reason, I believe he would become an even bigger asset with a big guy down low who can score. Ben is trigger happy, but he's not dumb. Never forget the distinction between the two. He would probably lose a few FGA per game, but his FG/3p % goes up, as does his PPG.

And oh yeah, his value as it relates to his "performance" vs. "contract" goes up too as well.

 

[houheffna]

I see nothing that shows that he will defer to a post player. He wouldn't defer to a better ball handler and a better player in transition (Rose).

There is one example of an undersized backcourt that won a championship that no one mentioned that might disprove my point.

82-83 76ers-Maurice Cheeks and Andrew Toney

Gordon is Andrew Toney in many ways except Toney was much more judicious concerning shot selection. But in the clutch...Andrew Toney was the man! Of course they had one of the top 5 centers in NBA history in the prime of his career, but that is another story.

 

[dougthonus]

How do I suggest they get better? Do the opposite of what they have been doing. Period. The plan didn't work. You have one player for your future, Rose. Do not fall in love with any other players. That is my suggestion. Great GMs can rebuild on the fly but sometimes you have to blow things up and start from scratch.

You haven't stated anything at all as to how you would build the team though. You've just thrown out some cliches. "What they are doing isn't working" "Don't overpay players" "Don't fall in love with your players".

What specific things would you do make the Bulls a championship contender. As in, exactly how would you improve the talent level of the team?

Rondo, Dumars, Hamilton, Ginobili could CHALLENGE Gordon? Are you serious? Rondo-better postseason, Dumars-not even going to dignify that with an answer, Hamilton-better on both sides of the court, Ginobili-better basketball player period. Didn't Brooks is having a nice postseason. It is interesting how other players on other teams can be called "crap" but when it comes to Gordon, not so much.

Hamilton isn't statically better on the offensive side of the court nor does he have to play as a demanding role on offense as Gordon has. Same thing with Rondo last season when his team won the title. This cuts to my the chase of my point that people prefer guys who are the 3rd or 4th option on their team with FAR FAR FAR less demanding roles than Gordon assuming for some reason that if they were the #1 option on their team that they'd lead their team somewhere when in reality, the odds of this are very slim.

I agreed that Ginobili and Dumars were better. Actually, I gave you Hamilton and Rondo as well, I just said it was arguable with them and don't personally believe it, because I think they're both beneficiaries of playing with far more talented players.

Aaron Brooks can be having a better post season than Gordon, but if you think he's better than Ben Gordon as a player it's purely a case of "the grass is always greener", if you had to bring Aaron Brooks to the Bulls and tell him to be the #1 option on a team with no front court, he'd look like complete garbage compared to Gordon, as would most players that people champion as better than Gordon who play with guys who play as 3rd or 4th options on their teams.

I would guess most of you would have liked D'Antoni here as coach too. Basketball's version of the "run and shoot" didn't work in football and I don't think it will work in basketball. You have to play defense.

You need to be elite on defense and offense to win a title in the NBA. The Bulls have been an elite defense with Gordon playing huge minutes in three of his five years, so clearly he doesn't prevent them from being an elite defense. He's also been their best offensive player, and I don't think anyone would argue that Ben Gordon makes the offense worse.

And please, please, please dont compare Gordon to the man Jordan regarded as the single most important person to force him to improve his game and who he felt played him the toughest...it just aint right.

I have no idea what you're even talking about here. Everyone I've talked to related to the Bulls (players and management and press) have all universally said Gordon is in an elite class when it comes to work ethic and dedication. I'm not sure how this relates to Jordan in any way.

Again, I'm not arguing Ben Gordon leads your team to a title, but we could have signed him for 9 million per year, on most teams that's 4th or 5th man money. Ben Gordon is good enough to be the 3rd wheel on a championship bandwagon IMO, and I think it's inarguable that he's good enough to be the 4th or 5th wheel which is what his salary demands are.

 

[dougthonus]

houheffna wrote:

I see nothing that shows that he will defer to a post player. He wouldn't defer to a better ball handler and a better player in transition (Rose).

Gordon shot the ball 16 times a game. There is not a player in the NBA who scored more points than Gordon and had less attempts per game.

If there isn't a player in the league who scores more than you without also using more shots, then I don't think you're a ball hog.

 

[houheffna]

He is a ball hog and Nocioni hinted as much after he left. As far as the Jordan quote, I was talking about Dumars. How do you fix the team? Do a better job of drafting, be more consistent, those aren't cliches, they are fact. Look at the Blackhawks for an example, maximize your opportunities. Don't pass up Aldridge and guys who have what the Bulls needed to get players that make sportscenter plays. Bring in a coach that emphasizes defense. Offense is nice, its glamorous, but defense is what wins in the playoffs. The Bulls had a stellar defense despite BG not because of him. He got his butt handed to him by the Pistons because he could not guard either Billups or Hamilton. Hamilton is a championship all-star 2 guard who could play defense. Period. Stats are stats.

Like Vin Scully said "Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination."

So much for BG and his 16 shots. If he goes 7 for 16 instead of 7 for 23, the Bulls may have won game 7 against Boston.

I have no concrete ideas as to how to improve the team, that is a question for Sam Smith or KC Johnson. I just know this team plays bad basketball and I know what mistakes were made in the past, and they should not be repeated.

This is why Lawrence Holmes went Celtic green on Bulls fans. Bulls fans cannot settle, if you think Gordon is a legitimate starting 2 guard on a team that is contending...then we will have to agree to disagree.

I guess it's just me Boers and Bernstein on this one. I actually agree with them.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Let's put Ben on some of the teams that are in the playoffs right now and see what happens.

Cavs:
Williams, Gordon, James, Varajao, Ilgauskas. Pretty good I think. Legit championship contender every year.

Magic:
Alston, Gordon, Turkoglu, Lewis, Howard. Gordon fits right in with the system here. Much improved offense compared to Courtney Lee.

Houston:
Brooks, Gordon, Artest, Scola, Yao. A very solid team I think. Assuming everyone is healthy, then this is a contending team IMO (McGrady is not on this team mind you).

Lakers:
Gordon, Bryant, Odom, Gasol, Bynum. VERY good team. Definite contender, though I suppose in this case you've got me cornered since he's not actually the starting SG.

I could go through every other team, but I'm kind of lazy. Point is, Gordon would be a definite contributor as a starting 2 guard on any of these teams.

Also, Gordon is not a ball hog. He is the primary scoring option. What do primary scoring options do? Shoot. Thus he does his job very well (minus post hamstring injury). Ben is also not a black hole, he does pass. He has had several games of 6+ assists. He doesn't get enough credit for that.

 

[Manic Devourer]

Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Let's put Ben on some of the teams that are in the playoffs right now and see what happens.

Cavs:
Williams, Gordon, James, Varajao, Ilgauskas. Pretty good I think. Legit championship contender every year.

Magic:
Alston, Gordon, Turkoglu, Lewis, Howard. Gordon fits right in with the system here. Much improved offense compared to Courtney Lee.

Houston:
Brooks, Gordon, Artest, Scola, Yao. A very solid team I think. Assuming everyone is healthy, then this is a contending team IMO (McGrady is not on this team mind you).

Lakers:
Gordon, Bryant, Odom, Gasol, Bynum. VERY good team. Definite contender, though I suppose in this case you've got me cornered since he's not actually the starting SG.

I could go through every other team, but I'm kind of lazy. Point is, Gordon would be a definite contributor as a starting 2 guard on any of these teams.

Also, Gordon is not a ball hog. He is the primary scoring option. What do primary scoring options do? Shoot. Thus he does his job very well (minus post hamstring injury). Ben is also not a black hole, he does pass. He has had several games of 6+ assists. He doesn't get enough credit for that.

What the hell does that prove?

Put Lebron on our team, and we'd most likely be in the conference finals as well.

Put Kobe on our team, and we'd winning 50 + games.

Put Roy on our team, and we'd be winning 50 + games.

Put Dwight Howard on our team, and we'd be facing Cavs in the conference finals.

I mean that argument is so stupid because you're just putting Gordon on teams, that already have legit stars and that are already good teams. Why not put him on a bad teams, and project whether he'll provide more wins for them with him being in the line up?

 

[Manic Devourer]

Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be

clonetrooper264 wrote:
Also, Gordon is not a ball hog. He is the primary scoring option. What do primary scoring options do? Shoot. Thus he does his job very well (minus post hamstring injury). Ben is also not a black hole, he does pass. He has had several games of 6+ assists. He doesn't get enough credit for that.

Gordon may not be the ultimate ball-hog, but he does halt movement many many times during a game. There are way too many times when he'll decide to just dribble the ball between his legs trying to create a shot for himself way to early in the shot clock while everyone else stands around and watches.

I don't mind him creating his own shot, but move the ball, moving your body, and when your play doesn't work, with about 10 seconds or less to go, then go one on one.

There are too many games, where he has to chase the game by shooting himself into it, as opposed to the game coming to him.

I still believe he could be even better if he played more of a Reggie Miller or Hamilton role where he'll get most of his points coming off screens and attractive defensive attention that way, as opposed to him trying to create for himself. He shoots a lot higher percentage when he catches and shoots the ball, as opposed to him creating his own shot off the dribble while everyone else watches. But because he has such a strong mentality as a scorer, he just won't do that.

 

[Bullsman24]

Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be

but ben gordon is good enough to take defenders one on one, and if you can do that then do it.

 

[Shakes]

Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be

By asking Gordon to just be a catch and shoot player you're basically asking him to take less shots. You simply can't generate that many shots from catch and shoot situations alone.

The only guys who scored more efficiently than Gordon were Noah (because he only takes shots from 3 feet or closer) and Salmons (who wasn't even on the team most of the year). So basically you're saying that Gordon should give some of his shots to guys who are less efficient than he is, and this is supposed to make the team better.

You've got to get your best offensive players the ball and give them a chance to score, even if that means they get a bit "selfish" at times. You know what I think is selfish? Passing the ball to a worse shooter so they can clank a shot. It doesn't help the team, but for some reason it makes you everybody's best friend because you're such a selfless player.

As for lack of movement and proper offense, well maybe I'm being dumb here, but isn't that primarily the responsibility of the coach (designing an offense that gets everyone moving) and the point guard (running said offense)? Why don't you ask Vinny why he has players standing around watching while Gordon goes one on one? Or do you believe Gordon is willfully disobeying the coach and Vinny is such a wimp he just takes it? Why is it when Rose goes one on one (with less success than Gordon mind you) everyone harps on about how great it is he's being aggresive?

 

[Manic Devourer]

Re:McGraw: Decent chance the Bulls will re-sign Be

Shakes wrote:

By asking Gordon to just be a catch and shoot player you're basically asking him to take less shots. You simply can't generate that many shots from catch and shoot situations alone.

The only guys who scored more efficiently than Gordon were Noah (because he only takes shots from 3 feet or closer) and Salmons (who wasn't even on the team most of the year). So basically you're saying that Gordon should give some of his shots to guys who are less efficient than he is, and this is supposed to make the team better.

You've got to get your best offensive players the ball and give them a chance to score, even if that means they get a bit "selfish" at times. You know what I think is selfish? Passing the ball to a worse shooter so they can clank a shot. It doesn't help the team, but for some reason it makes you everybody's best friend because you're such a selfless player.

As for lack of movement and proper offense, well maybe I'm being dumb here, but isn't that primarily the responsibility of the coach (designing an offense that gets everyone moving) and the point guard (running said offense)? Why don't you ask Vinny why he has players standing around watching while Gordon goes one on one? Or do you believe Gordon is willfully disobeying the coach and Vinny is such a wimp he just takes it? Why is it when Rose goes one on one (with less success than Gordon mind you) everyone harps on about how great it is he's being aggresive?

If you read what I said, I think you'd understand.

I never said that Gordon should strictly be a catch and shoot player, but he should avoid trying to go one on one so early in the shot clock too often during games. Are you saying that you haven't seen games where he gets the ball with 20 seconds on the shot clock dribbling between his legs, and trapping himself on the baseline with nowhere to go before he hoist up a bad shot?

Move the ball, come off screens, and when all is lost, I don't mind seeing Rose or Gordon get the ball with 10-8 second left in the shot clock to create something out of nothing.

Plus, Gordon has these incredible brain lapse during end of quarters where he'll shoot the ball with plenty of time left on the clock for opposing teams to get up a shot. I remember this happening multiple times, where he can wait until the last second to shoot the ball but he'll hoist a shot up with plenty of time for the other team to get up a shot. He just makes these little unforced errors that kills any momentum that he may have created with his scoring ability.

He basically kills momentum just as well as he creates momentum.