Monta Ellis is not worth Deng or Noah

[CODE_BLUE56]

Compared to other centers/pf hybrids. Yes.

Compared to Boozer.

Dug.

he's more coordinated than laterally quick

Missed the point.

Try again.

nah i understand that this idea may end up being more irrelevant because of the comparison to boozer(who sucks at D too)

 

[Lex L.]

ok..you're probably right here...actually this may work better...bargnani would work better defending PFs(though this means little)




bargnani is not good at defense not because of lack of effort..but lack of defensive tools...idk if you can teach him lateral quickness...i guess you could teach him to utilize his height and defend more like a 7 footer...

he is also a bit inefficient because he little post/clean up game...though he is averaging 55% this year...its a small sample size though...you wonder if he could keep this up

now that i think about this a little more...i suppose it isnt a bad trade...but i still dont know how much you are actually gaining...your D wont get better..you lose significant rebounding...bargnani has a better outside game for sure and stretches the D..but that's his only real strong dimension...

he's coordinated..but not laterally quick

I've already addressed why I think Boozer's rebound numbers are largely fluff. I thikn losing Boozer, would likely result in more rebound numbers for other guys, namely Noah. There are a lot of situations where there's rebound redundancy. By that, I mean, there are a lot of Boozer rebounds that Noah would have had but Noah defers to Boozer. I think Noah defers to Boozer more than vice versa. I think Boozer is more concerned with stats.

Like I said, the Bulls were a top 3 rebounding team before Boozer, and they'd be fine without him.

I dont see a massive difference in lateral quickness. I don't think there's really an issue to be made there.

 

[FirstTimer]

nah i understand

Your response showed the exact opposite.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

But he is forced to take more contested shots as a result of being the focal point of an offense on a bad team. In theory, he'd have more open shots playing on the Bulls. And PF is probably a more natural position for him.

Bargnani would be like a poor man's Dirk. He'd help against zones with his shot making and he'd also drag other PFs away from the basket in man.

he does remind me of dirk..but doesnt have nearly the ability to make moves to the basket or the offensive consistency....i think dirk was/is a better rebounder as well

he'd be efficient and he'd have open shots...at the same time i dont think he would produce as much...and perhaps that is a better role for him...he wouldnt be a 20 PPG scorer on the bulls

although it does open up the floor(bargnani would be a stretch 4)...you take away rebounding and a bit of your inside game

i dont know if having a space 4 is going to help noah...it may help deng more but he doesnt have great handles....brewer i guess...rose definitely

i think you did make a good point about having a stretch 4...i have been a big advocate about having outside shooting that could stretch the D...i just would rather have better outside shooting wings than a stretch 4..but certainly there are some positives here

at the end of the day....i dont see there being any deal here...and i still think bargnani is overrated

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I've already addressed why I think Boozer's rebound numbers are largely fluff. I thikn losing Boozer, would likely result in more rebound numbers for other guys, namely Noah. There are a lot of situations where there's rebound redundancy. By that, I mean, there are a lot of Boozer rebounds that Noah would have had but Noah defers to Boozer. I think Noah defers to Boozer more than vice versa. I think Boozer is more concerned with stats.

Like I said, the Bulls were a top 3 rebounding team before Boozer, and they'd be fine without him.

I dont see a massive difference in lateral quickness. I don't think there's really an issue to be made there.

well the D isnt going to get worse or better really...

i dont know how bargnani works with noah really...other than noah being a good passing big...do you work more of a 4 around?

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Your response showed the exact opposite.

then what am i missing here?

 

[Lex L.]

he does remind me of dirk..but doesnt have nearly the ability to make moves to the basket or the offensive consistency....i think dirk was/is a better rebounder as well

Notice how I said a poor man's Dirk.

he'd be efficient and he'd have open shots...at the same time i dont think he would produce as much...and perhaps that is a better role for him...he wouldnt be a 20 PPG scorer on the bulls

It depends. If he hits a higher percentage of shots and gets more easy shots, he might still get 20 ppg or close to it.

although it does open up the floor(bargnani would be a stretch 4)...you take away rebounding and a bit of your inside game

Thats really questionable. As I've previously stated, Boozer brings a lot of rebounding redundancy. Also, if Bargnani is causing the defense to spread out, that could actually mean more rebounds for Noah and Deng. Since Boozer shoots around the basket more, that means there's a CF, PF boxing out and going against Noah as the shot goes up. This is a 2:1 advantage for the defense. If Bargnani drags a defender away, the ratio is 1:1 more.

i dont know if having a space 4 is going to help noah...it may help deng more but he doesnt have great handles....brewer i guess...rose definitely

See above. Also, consider that Noah's passing is really well utilized when he can hit guys slashing to the basket. Bargnani is a PF who is better than Boozer at slashing to the basket. This also complements the Bulls other players most of which can slash to the basket. Boozer's style of play bogs this down.

i think you did make a good point about having a stretch 4...i have been a big advocate about having outside shooting that could stretch the D...i just would rather have better outside shooting wings than a stretch 4..but certainly there are some positives here

The Bulls, more than a lot of teams, would benefit from spacing for several reasons. Rose, Deng, Brewer, Hamilton, Bargnani (hypothetically), Gibson, and Noah can all slash to the basket in varying degrees. The spacing would be huge.

at the end of the day....i dont see there being any deal here...and i still think bargnani is overrated

Lamar Odom was overrated before he was with the Lakers. Then they found the proper role for him. He was still maybe overrated but at least he was being used in an optimal way and was a lot less overrated.

 

[FirstTimer]

then what am i missing here?

Bargnani not utlizing his height now isn't the issue. It's that when the physical tools erode he can learn to utilize his height later. Boozer can't learn to grow taller at 33. Bargs frame allows him to adapt his game as he ages and the physical tools decline. Boozer's doesn't.

 

[Lex L.]

well the D isnt going to get worse or better really...

There's a chance it could get better. I also think you're under estimating the simple fact that Bargnani plays with more length and that alone could net an improvement. But like I said, a lot of it's effort. Boozer simply doesn't put out the effort to play defense. If Bargnani played on the Bulls and was indoctrinated into this style of play, there's a distinct chance that he would put more effort into playing defense. It's not a certainty but that possibilty represents a greater opportunity to improve on defense than what Boozer represents currently. And, sorry, but I think Bargnani has better lateral quickness although it might be somewhat negligible.

i dont know how bargnani works with noah really...other than noah being a good passing big...do you work more of a 4 around?

I don't understand your question or your confusion. Two of Noah's best strengths on offense (other than rebounding) is his mobility and passing. By Bargnani spacing out the defense, both of these are put to better use. It results in Noah hitting more guys slashing to the basket and also more room for Noah to operate when presented one on ones with slower Cs.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Notice how I said a poor man's Dirk.

yep

It depends. If he hits a higher percentage of shots and gets more easy shots, he might still get 20 ppg or close to it.

im not so sure...bargnani has a higher usage because he doesnt a rose on his team

Thats really questionable. As I've previously stated, Boozer brings a lot of rebounding redundancy. Also, if Bargnani is causing the defense to spread out, that could actually mean more rebounds for Noah and Deng. Since Boozer shoots around the basket more, that means there's a CF, PF boxing out and going against Noah as the shot goes up. This is a 2:1 advantage for the defense. If Bargnani drags a defender away, the ratio is 1:1 more.

boozer shoots around the basket more..but he also has a face up/shooting game

at the same time though..you have one less guy to rely on for offensive rebounding....so it somewhat evens out

See above. Also, consider that Noah's passing is really well utilized when he can hit guys slashing to the basket. Bargnani is a PF who is better than Boozer at slashing to the basket. This also complements the Bulls other players most of which can slash to the basket. Boozer's style of play bogs this down.

i still think bargnani is not a great slasher...he would need to improve this dimension more

The Bulls, more than a lot of teams, would benefit from spacing for several reasons. Rose, Deng, Brewer, Hamilton, Bargnani (hypothetically), Gibson, and Noah can all slash to the basket in varying degrees. The spacing would be huge.

again im not sure if that is a strength of bargnani's....deng needs to improve his handle a bit...i agree about the other 3 though

Lamar Odom was overrated before he was with the Lakers. Then they found the proper role for him. He was still maybe overrated but at least he was being used in an optimal way and was a lot less overrated.

well like odom..i think bargnani will have a lesser role on the bulls...i see him as a good stretch 4 who still needs to develop alot of his game...i dont see him being as productive in a system where he's not having a high usage....that said i dont think that he wont be productive

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Bargnani not utlizing his height now isn't the issue. It's that when the physical tools erode he can learn to utilize his height later. Boozer can't learn to grow taller at 33. Bargs frame allows him to adapt his game as he ages and the physical tools decline. Boozer's doesn't.

he can...will he i dont know

he has coordination..but again i think he lacks some tools

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

There's a chance it could get better. I also think you're under estimating the simple fact that Bargnani plays with more length and that alone could net an improvement. But like I said, a lot of it's effort. Boozer simply doesn't put out the effort to play defense. If Bargnani played on the Bulls and was indoctrinated into this style of play, there's a distinct chance that he would put more effort into playing defense. It's not a certainty but that possibilty represents a greater opportunity to improve on defense than what Boozer represents currently. And, sorry, but I think Bargnani has better lateral quickness although it might be somewhat negligible.

i still dont see it..i think he lacks defensive tools...unlike boozer who lacks efforts

I don't understand your question or your confusion. Two of Noah's best strengths on offense (other than rebounding) is his mobility and passing. By Bargnani spacing out the defense, both of these are put to better use. It results in Noah hitting more guys slashing to the basket and also more room for Noah to operate when presented one on ones with slower Cs.

fair enough...i suppose i didnt know that much about bargnani in the first place..that said i still think he is overrated and needs to work on some dimensions of his game

 

[Lex L.]

I kind of wish that trade would happen now...even more than I did before this discussion started.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I kind of wish that trade would happen now...even more than I did before this discussion started.

doubt it will..but i admit i was a bit wrong on this

that said..part of the reason its a good trade is because of who you're trading and thats boozer

the question is would toronto want to trade for someone like boozer and his big contract

 

[Lex L.]

doubt it will..but i admit i was a bit wrong on this

that said..part of the reason its a good trade is because of who you're trading and thats boozer

the question is would toronto want to trade for someone like boozer and his big contract

I don't know. Boozer rebounds more than Bargnani and can score in the upper teens. He's making about 5 mill more than Bargs, I think. I doubt it and one of the reasons is that Toronto seems to be in this thing where they're trying to fleece teams, going back to losing Bosh and Carter.

 

[FirstTimer]

he can...will he i dont know

Neither do I.

But I'd rather have that to fall back on as a possibility to continue to watch Boozer be short and not jump.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I don't know. Boozer rebounds more than Bargnani and can score in the upper teens. He's making about 5 mill more than Bargs, I think. I doubt it and one of the reasons is that Toronto seems to be in this thing where they're trying to fleece teams, going back to losing Bosh and Carter.

i honestly think toronto should try to build more around derozan and bargnani....idk how getting rid of bargnani for boozer does anything for them

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Neither do I.

But I'd rather have that to fall back on as a possibility to continue to watch Boozer be short and not jump.

fair enough

 

[Lex L.]

i honestly think toronto should try to build more around derozan and bargnani....idk how getting rid of bargnani for boozer does anything for them

I'm not saying they'd do it. The only thing that I can throw out there is that they might want more rebounding. They're one of the worst in the league.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I'm not saying they'd do it. The only thing that I can throw out there is that they might want more rebounding. They're one of the worst in the league.

partly because of bargnani lol...

i think everything else about boozer should weight out rebounding....even rebounding which one of boozer's strong point is declining because he's aging