Mora's blog and McPimp

[Kerfuffle]

Then what are you supposed to do when your staff tells you they have done it? Not believe them? There was nothing DT could have done to prevent what they did to him. zippo, nada, nothing. No matter how much you want the buck to stop with him, it lies in someone else's lap

If Stan told Dale it was done he should believe him - but did that really happen? Did Dale confirm this with Stan and hear that it was done?

 

[Kerfuffle]

I work a job that is similar in the project manager/team member situation and deadlines. Were all grown fucking adults, your boss should be able to take you on your word. Agreed - but, I believe in the 'trust but verify' especially when it's a critical deliverable. Anyhow, its unheard of for me, for the Project Manager to take the fall completely on his own in a situation where something like this does occur. In a situation if anyone got fired, in my line of work it would be the developer and the project manager would probably get reprimanded not fired. True - but if the fuck up were at a higher level and more critical - i.e. merger/acquisition falls apart then the guy in charge is going to get canned. This wasn't an innocuous matter - it was an absolutely critical deadline that had to be met.



Its not the least bit odd to you that the GM gets fired and the one who orchestrated the fuck up gets promoted? You are looking at this from a completely philosphical view that isnt based in reality. Regardless of whether the GM is ultimately responsible HE ISNT THE ONE THAT FUCKED UP. It doesn't matter who fucked up - whether it was the secretary, kid in the mailroom, or Stan Jr. It's Dale's responsibility.



Im not saying Dale isn't ultimately responsible, but really, i wish the real world worked how you say it does, because whenever I am not managing a project, i can just fuck off, and possibly get PROMOTED to his position when my PM gets canned for it, see how stupid that sounds? That part is messed up I agree - IF Stan really was the guy who fucked up then him getting promoted doesn't make sense. That's why I don't believe it was Stan



Again im not saying the Boss shouldn't get punished, but its rather hilarious you see nothing odd about the underling the boss was supposed to be checking up on fucked up, and not only didnt get punished, but got promoted for it, thats not the way it works in my business. It doesn't work that way in my business either, but I don't believe we have the full story and if Stan Jr did indeed mess it up then he's probably still there because of daddy Bowman. You can't fire Stan Jr without losing daddy senior.



I bounce all over the place from team lead to team member and there have been fuckups and miscues aplenty and have never seen events take place like they did with Dale, I have never ONCE seen a PM or Team Lead fired for a team members ineptitude (in my career I have seen this several times if the fuck up is big enough) EVER and its even more foriegn to me that that team member would get promoted to the fired team lead/PM's position upon that persons firing.

comments in blue

 

[fanof19]

Fluf if Dale himself told you it was Stan you wouldn't believe it, so talking about this any longer with you is just ridiculous. And, by your own logic, the ultimate responsibility sits in McDonough's lap, since he was Dale's boss and the buck stops with him. He should have fired himself. Please don't start the argument that he should be able to trust Dale to do his job, because you have already said it doesn't hold up. You cited Dale having to over manage Stan as if he were not competent enough to do the job. Funny thing about your argument, is that you sound like you may have something to do with the people who actually ARE responsible for holding the QOs back. They keep trying to pin it on DT, and yet EVERYONE in the NHL community knows it is the ASST GM's job to get the QOs done. You, seem to be the only person on the planet who can't get a handle on that. As for me, I'm finished talking about this with you.

 

[R K]

That actually went farther than I thought it would.

 

[Kerfuffle]

Fluf if Dale himself told you it was Stan you wouldn't believe it, so talking about this any longer with you is just ridiculous. And, by your own logic, the ultimate responsibility sits in McDonough's lap, since he was Dale's boss and the buck stops with him. He should have fired himself. Please don't start the argument that he should be able to trust Dale to do his job, because you have already said it doesn't hold up. You cited Dale having to over manage Stan as if he were not competent enough to do the job. Funny thing about your argument, is that you sound like you may have something to do with the people who actually ARE responsible for holding the QOs back. They keep trying to pin it on DT, and yet EVERYONE in the NHL community knows it is the ASST GM's job to get the QOs done. You, seem to be the only person on the planet who can't get a handle on that. As for me, I'm finished talking about this with you.

Sorry that you responded in the manner that you did - I was just discussing this with you. And the part I bolded above is exactly where you are mistaken. You and others think that because the job description says that Stan should do the QOs is the reason Dale has no responsibility here. And that is 100% absolutely false in the real world. Go in and tell your boss "that's not my job" when the next screwup at work happens and it's due to someone who reported to you. See if your boss likes to hear that. As a boss myself I can tell you we don't. Critical deliverables are not only the responsibility of the staff but the people supervising them. It doesn't matter that Dale was sick or out of the office or the QO not in his job description - the fact is he's the boss, he's in charge, it's his responsibility - period.

 

[fanof19]

Sorry that you responded in the manner that you did - I was just discussing this with you. And the part I bolded above is exactly where you are mistaken. You and others think that because the job description says that Stan should do the QOs is the reason Dale has no responsibility here. And that is 100% absolutely false in the real world. Go in and tell your boss "that's not my job" when the next screwup at work happens and it's due to someone who reported to you. See if your boss likes to hear that. As a boss myself I can tell you we don't. Critical deliverables are not only the responsibility of the staff but the people supervising them. It doesn't matter that Dale was sick or out of the office or the QO not in his job description - the fact is he's the boss, he's in charge, it's his responsibility - period.

According to your logic, it is then McDonough's responsibility. You are having a discussion? no, not really. You are trying to show how the blame really should fall on Tallon, when it doesn't. Dale never said it wasn't his job. He said he takes full responsibility for his staff. The people who actually held the offers back didn't get fired, The one who took the blame for them did. Don't you think that it odd? In the "real world" (as you state) the whole lot of them would have been fired. And, just an FYI, I am not mistaken. Anyway, have a good Thanksgiving and enjoy your family if you get together with them.

 

[jakobeast]

Sorry that you responded in the manner that you did - I was just discussing this with you. And the part I bolded above is exactly where you are mistaken. You and others think that because the job description says that Stan should do the QOs is the reason Dale has no responsibility here. And that is 100% absolutely false in the real world. Go in and tell your boss "that's not my job" when the next screwup at work happens and it's due to someone who reported to you. See if your boss likes to hear that. As a boss myself I can tell you we don't. Critical deliverables are not only the responsibility of the staff but the people supervising them. It doesn't matter that Dale was sick or out of the office or the QO not in his job description - the fact is he's the boss, he's in charge, it's his responsibility - period.

You really have no idea how much that guy knows.

 

[R K]

You really have no idea how much that guy knows.

No clue.

 

[IceHogsFan]

Interesting............ very interesting.



Going to remain silent beyond that.

 

[Kerfuffle]

According to your logic, it is then McDonough's responsibility. You are having a discussion? no, not really. You are trying to show how the blame really should fall on Tallon, when it doesn't. Dale never said it wasn't his job. He said he takes fll responsibility for his staff. The people who actually held the offers back didn't get fired, The one who took the blame for them did. Don't you think that it odd? In the "real world" (as you state) the whole lot of them would have been fired. And, just an FYI, I am not mistaken. Anyway, have a good Thanksgiving and enjoy your family if you get together with them.

It's Tallon's responsibility, not McD's, not Rocky's. Tale was the GM, the QOs were his department. The only argument I'm hearing in this thread is the QOs are not in the written job description for Tallon. Sorry but that doesn't hold water in the real world. Dale taking full responsibility for his staff was the right move - he knows he's accountable for the mess up. I'm not a lover of McD but the firing was justified and I would have had to make the same move in this situation.

 

[R K]

Funny, similar things happened at my former place of employment. Where those that actually made the mistake were dismissed verses the one responsible for those employees. Similar to having insulation. We were a small company though. Only 6000 employees, with 6 billion in annual sales. Tiny fortune 400 company traded on the NASDAQ.



So it must work that way in the "real" world all the time. Where those that actually CAUSE or Create the issue, are held responsible long before the person or EXECUTIVE in charge.



I can think of 3 instances in my 15 years at said company where the top Executives were not the ones held or even deemed responsible. But hey, that's the "real world".

 

[fanof19]

Some people's reality are based in fantasy RK. When you want to believe your dad, brother, father, friend, whoever isn't responsible, people will come up with arguments that really don't stand up against facts. You and I and some others here know the truth, and that the truth will stand on it's own, no matter how the McSpinsters try to spin it.



Have a good Thanksgiving RK

 

[R K]

You have a nice Holiday as well.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Fuffle I'm going to give you some in advice (comments in blue):



Just stop.... please. You have zero idea what you're talking about just like most of us on this board regarding this situation. What you fail to realize is that SOME of the people in this thread actually DO KNOW what they're talking about regarding this situation because they've heard it first hand from people in the middle of it. Just quit posting about stuff you know nothing about and ASSuming things.

 

[Spunky Porkstacker]

Fuffle I'm going to give you some in advice (comments in blue):



Just stop.... please. You have zero idea what you're talking about just like most of us on this board. What you fail to realize is that SOME of the people in this thread actually DO KNOW what they're talking about regarding this situation because they've heard it first hand from people in the middle of the situation. Just quit posting about stuff you know nothing about and ASSuming things.

Debating with Foofle reminds me of a guy on the Oboards who argued for over a month about trading away Wiz.

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

It's Tallon's responsibility, not McD's, not Rocky's. Tale was the GM, the QOs were his department. The only argument I'm hearing in this thread is the QOs are not in the written job description for Tallon. Sorry but that doesn't hold water in the real world. Dale taking full responsibility for his staff was the right move - he knows he's accountable for the mess up. I'm not a lover of McD but the firing was justified and I would have had to make the same move in this situation.

Let's say you are a warehouse manager and one of your employees caused $500k+ in damge of house goods from a forklift. Who should be fired?



Let's say you are a warehouse manager and one of your employees caused $500k+ in lost revenue by failing to send a shipment out in time. Who should be fired?

 

[TJD]

I Blame Bush...

 

[Kerfuffle]

Debating with Foofle reminds me of a guy on the Oboards who argued for over a month about trading away Wiz.

Yeah like Pahlsson was such a wonderful pickup

 

[Kerfuffle]

Let's say you are a warehouse manager and one of your employees caused $500k+ in damge of house goods from a forklift. Who should be fired?



Let's say you are a warehouse manager and one of your employees caused $500k+ in lost revenue by failing to send a shipment out in time. Who should be fired?

1st example above - you find out first if it was carelessness on the employee's part or the failure of the forklift. If carelessness you fire the employee

2nd example above - you find out why the shipment was not sent. Did he forget? Ignore the deadline? What was his immediate supervisor doing to oversee this? Did he fail as well to verify the shipment went out? If so I fire them both.

 

[Kerfuffle]

Fuffle I'm going to give you some in advice (comments in blue):



Just stop.... please. You have zero idea what you're talking about just like most of us on this board regarding this situation. What you fail to realize is that SOME of the people in this thread actually DO KNOW what they're talking about regarding this situation because they've heard it first hand from people in the middle of it. Just quit posting about stuff you know nothing about and ASSuming things.

I reread this thread top to bottom and the only argument your people 'in the know' are making here is that the written job description of asst GM says he's responsible for the QO. That's a pretty weak argument to pin the whole QO fiasco on Stan.



btw Stu - I worked with Stan back around '95-96' when we were both with Arthur Andersen at the time doing consulting. He left shortly thereafter to join the hockey world. He's a good guy and not one I would ever think of participating in a conspiracy to hold back QO offers - that's not him and that's a big reason why I call bullshit here.