Movie Thread (All forms)

phranchk

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Saw Senna. A documentary about Formula One driver - Ayrton Senna. I think several people had posted about it on facebook, including BHP so I finally got around to watching it and it was excellent. It does a good job of capturing his life as a driver and also the politics of the sport. I kind of hope someone makes an in depth documentary just on the politics of Formula One. It could easily be a documentary on its own. My one complaint about it is that it only touched the surface of who Senna really was, which was more a limitation of the way it was presented. It would have to have been a 4 hour documentary to really get much deeper.
 

phranchk

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They protected the elite racers and made it very difficult for others to move up. The president of F1 also had his favorites and would make decisions that based on that. They would invoke race rules to disqualify someone that were rarely ever invoked. There was alos interteam politics that came into play.
 

MassHavoc

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That does sound interesting. I bet all sports have something like that. Can you imagine an in depth behind the scenes doc about the NFL?
 

phranchk

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That does sound interesting. I bet all sports have something like that. Can you imagine an in depth behind the scenes doc about the NFL?
No doubt. I would love to see HBO pull off a documentary like that. Only problem is they'd likely lose access to all other cool NFL and NHL documentaries they do.
 

MassHavoc

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Yeah exactly... too much dirty laundry to air it.
 

BlackHawkPaul

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Saw Senna. A documentary about Formula One driver - Ayrton Senna. I think several people had posted about it on facebook, including BHP so I finally got around to watching it and it was excellent. It does a good job of capturing his life as a driver and also the politics of the sport. I kind of hope someone makes an in depth documentary just on the politics of Formula One. It could easily be a documentary on its own. My one complaint about it is that it only touched the surface of who Senna really was, which was more a limitation of the way it was presented. It would have to have been a 4 hour documentary to really get much deeper.

Senna was phenomenal.

Amazing story, fantastic coverage, and an instant draw from minute 1.

I recommend this film. Technically solid, editing is some of the strongest I have ever seen. What that filmmaker does with archival footage is second to none.



I don't give them out often, but Senna is a

10/10



I also watched Pulling John, a documentary about John Brzenk.

I have to say, I stayed to the end. Who knew arm wrestling could be cool, and it's also about a guy from Elgin.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMT2Z1ISd8s



7/10
 

BlackHawkPaul

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Another documentary that I recommend would be the Titicut Follies (1967).

I found a link for the entire film. It is NSFW.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC33HqwJMnM



Plot analysis:

Titicut Follies is a 1967 American documentary film directed by Frederick Wiseman, about the treatment of inmates/patients at Bridgewater State Hospital for the criminally insane, a Massachusetts Correctional Institution in Bridgewater, Massachusetts. The title is taken from a talent show put on by the hospital's inmates. (The talent show was named after the Wampanoag word for the nearby Taunton River.) In 1967 the film won awards in Germany and Italy. Wiseman made a number of such films examining social institutions (e.g. hospitals, police, schools, etc.) in the United States.



Titicut Follies portrays the existence of occupants of Bridgewater, some of them catatonic, holed up in unlit cells, and only periodically washed. It also depicts inmates/patients required to strip naked publicly, force feeding, and indifference and bullying on the part of many of the institution's staff.



Titicut Follies was the beginning of the documentary career of Fred Wiseman, a Boston-born lawyer turned filmmaker. He originally took his law classes from Boston University to the institution for educational purposes and had "wanted to do a film there." He began calling the superintendent of the facility looking for permission to film a year prior to production. Wiseman had previously produced The Cool World, a 1960 film based on Warren Miller's novel and took that experience to inform his desire to direct. He drafted a proposal that was verbally agreed to by the superintendent, which later came into question when the film began distribution. Following that agreement filming did commence and while on location Wiseman recorded the sound and directed the cameraman with his microphone or hand directions. He hired John Marshall as his cameraman, an established ethnographic filmmaker.



Just before the film was due to be shown at the 1967 New York Film Festival, the government of Massachusetts tried to get an injunction banning its release. The government claimed that the film violated the patients' privacy and dignity. Although Wiseman received permission from all the people portrayed or the hospital superintendent (their legal guardian), Massachusetts claimed that this permission could not take the place of valid release forms from the inmates. It also claimed that Wiseman breached an "oral contract" giving the state government editorial control over the film. However, a New York state court allowed the film to be shown. In 1968, however, Massachusetts Superior Court judge Harry Kalus ordered the film yanked from distribution and called for all copies to be destroyed, citing the state's concerns about violations of the patients' privacy and dignity.



Wiseman appealed to the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, which in 1969 allowed it to be shown only to doctors, lawyers, judges, health-care professionals, social workers, and students in these and related fields. Wiseman appealed to the United States Supreme Court, which refused to hear the case.



Wiseman has pointed out that he received permission from all of the people portrayed in the film or else their legal guardian, in this case the superintendent of Bridgewater. He believes that the government of Massachusetts, concerned that the film portrayed a state institution in a bad light, intervened to protect its own reputation. The state intervened after a social worker in Minnesota wrote to Governor John Volpe expressing shock at a scene involving a naked man being taunted by a guard.



The dispute marked the first known instance in the history of the American film industry that a film was banned from general distribution for reasons other than obscenity, immorality or national security. It was also the first time that Massachusetts recognized a right to privacy at the state level. Wiseman stated that, "The obvious point that I was making was that the restriction of the court was a greater infringement of civil liberties than the film was an infringement on the liberties of the inmates."



Little changed until 1987, when the families of seven inmates who died at the hospital sued the hospital and state. Steven Schwartz represented one of the inmates. Schwartz's client who was "restrained for 2 ½ months and given six psychiatric drugs at vastly unsafe levels - - choked to death because he could not swallow his food." Schwartz claims that, "There is a direct connection between the decision not to show that film publicly and my client dying 20 years later, and a whole host of other people dying in between." In fact, "In the years since Mr. Wiseman made 'Titicut Follies', most of the nation's big mental institutions have been closed or cut back by court orders." In addition, "the film may have also influenced the closing of the institution featured in the film."
 

MassHavoc

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Does pulling john show snapped forearms or shoulders popping completely out, because for some reason I can not watch gruesome arm wrestling injuries.
 

MassHavoc

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Good then maybe I can watch it...



On another note, what Mule said in the other thread got me thinking... Are documentaries Art? I consider film, cinema, and most movies that actually try instead of just bing scary movie 6, art. But I never really considered that definition when I think about documentaries. I guess maybe I don't really have a firm definition of what movies are and who makes them art... So I thought I would bring it up in the movie thread. I never thought of documentaries in the same light as other movies and being Art... I don't know because some of them elicit just as much emotional pull, and I don't hate documentaries but they have never been in the same class for me as other movies, it's almost like I don't consider them movies, I consider them their own thing like. I don't call them movies, they are documentaries. That probably sounds strange now.
 

the canadian dream

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Good then maybe I can watch it...



On another note, what Mule said in the other thread got me thinking... Are documentaries Art? I consider film, cinema, and most movies that actually try instead of just bing scary movie 6, art. But I never really considered that definition when I think about documentaries. I guess maybe I don't really have a firm definition of what movies are and who makes them art... So I thought I would bring it up in the movie thread. I never thought of documentaries in the same light as other movies and being Art... I don't know because some of them elicit just as much emotional pull, and I don't hate documentaries but they have never been in the same class for me as other movies, it's almost like I don't consider them movies, I consider them their own thing like. I don't call them movies, they are documentaries. That probably sounds strange now.



I see where you are going with this..interesting argument. What about the term "film" instead of "movie" to classify documentary under? I think I have always referred to documentaries as film and not movies myself for reasons I am not even aware of at a conscious level. Weird that you brought it up...I have never thought about it until now.



Im a pretty big doc film fan. Def can be held to the light of art in my books. I believe when ever one is telling a story fact or fiction its an artistic action. Wether it's good art or bad art is subjective. The medium used to tell the story is part of the creative process and how the story teller uses it to enhance emotional and physical reactions to said story...and creativity is a human trait I personally find fascinating....I believe it's the strongest, richest and most powerful trait humans possess. Just my opinion.



Film/television/movies are the most exploitive medium in the art world. They can hit on all our senses and can use every other art mediums within themselves. If that makes sense. As a painter I don't have the resources that film does to enhance my story or to make my points stronger. as an easy example I don't have the means to manipulate music to fit with the visual within my work to enhance mine or the viewers emotional/physical reaction. Great film makers can use music and sound to hit home the story telling and sustain it. Esp in doc films where sometimes a single theme can not sustain itself long enough as something that is compelling or interesting.



Im rambling now. I can go on about this stuff forever but it will never make sense the way I write.
 

MassHavoc

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I see where you are going with this..interesting argument. What about the term "film" instead of "movie" to classify documentary under? I think I have always referred to documentaries as film and not movies myself for reasons I am not even aware of at a conscious level. Weird that you brought it up...I have never thought about it until now.



Im a pretty big doc film fan. Def can be held to the light of art in my books. I believe when ever one is telling a story fact or fiction its an artistic action. Wether it's good art or bad art is subjective. The medium used to tell the story is part of the creative process and how the story teller uses it to enhance emotional and physical reactions to said story...and creativity is a human trait I personally find fascinating....I believe it's the strongest, richest and most powerful trait humans possess. Just my opinion.
That is interesting. I am like you in that I would refer to them as films before movies. To me they are their own medium entirely and don't really hit my brain as a standard movie. It's like... hmm.. Novels and Comics. Technically they are just different ways to write and tell a story, but they are so incredibly different to me that they don't range as being even similar to each other other than a base concept maybe of telling a story maybe? Maybe that's a bad example but I want to go home and can't think of anything right now. So movies are art, but I don't concider docs as movies, and that's not derogatory, I just feel like they are a different beast entirely and I'd have to look at them in a different light and thing about them as art cause I've just never thought of them that way as they are more... like a news report to me than a movie with a story. And I would consider the news art... but some documentaries, the way they tell the story through facts are so truly moving that I would consider it art.
 

the canadian dream

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That is interesting. I am like you in that I would refer to them as films before movies. To me they are their own medium entirely and don't really hit my brain as a standard movie. It's like... hmm.. Novels and Comics. Technically they are just different ways to write and tell a story, but they are so incredibly different to me that they don't range as being even similar to each other other than a base concept maybe of telling a story maybe? Maybe that's a bad example but I want to go home and can't think of anything right now. So movies are art, but I don't concider docs as movies, and that's not derogatory, I just feel like they are a different beast entirely and I'd have to look at them in a different light and thing about them as art cause I've just never thought of them that way as they are more... like a news report to me than a movie with a story. And I would consider the news art... but some documentaries, the way they tell the story through facts are so truly moving that I would consider it art.



Where do bio-movies fit? I have always sort of considered bio-movies as documentary in nature but twisted into something out of that relm. Infact typing "bio-movie" feels awkward because I actually call them bio-films as I would a documentary style. Strange. Does this come down to fact and fiction in my minds organization? Do factual based stories get lumped into "film" while anything based on fiction gets referred to as "movie"? Could be.
 

BlackHawkPaul

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I really don't have much of a classification system for the films I see.

I mean "film" is just a descriptor... in a few years no one will be shooting film anyway. Most of the major companies are transferring to digital.

Whatever you call it, that's your thing.

Whether it's film or movies, or motion pictures, it's just to define a medium.

It's much different from calling someone an actor or a movie star.
 

BlackHawkPaul

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Where do bio-movies fit? I have always sort of considered bio-movies as documentary in nature but twisted into something out of that relm. Infact typing "bio-movie" feels awkward because I actually call them bio-films as I would a documentary style. Strange. Does this come down to fact and fiction in my minds organization? Do factual based stories get lumped into "film" while anything based on fiction gets referred to as "movie"? Could be.

It can be difficult to classify.

There's a 7 part documentary on Evolution that PBS aired over a decade ago. The first part was on Darwin, and they did recreations. Errol Morris was famous for that for The Thin Blue Line.

The film Tora Tora Tora has actual bombing footage of Pearl Harbor.



Sometimes the lines cross, and it can become blurry.
 

The Mule

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I like to define all movies/films by either or whether documentary, action, slasher, etc. I think the narrower definitions come in the form of genre and sub-genre, but in general they're all under the same classification and about that art is the medium, etc. With documentary as a genre of film then you could debate whether or not a movie with recreations is a documentary. I think yes, since it fits into the classification of creative non-fiction, which in itself is a problematic term, but it just means something that incorporates the fundamentals of storytelling, theme, tone, character, narrative, etc.



Movies are films, films are movies. Those terms, aside from the actual tactile film used to shoot them, are often used in a pretentious sense by people who want to be known as someone who only likes films, not movies, or wants to demean movies as something lesser. There are other words for those things, like blockbuster, art house, independent, corporate, etc. I think we should just be more descriptive. In general I prefer to define movies as either bad or good and then give reasons why instead of reducing them with some kind of highfalutin "I'm better than you" scale.
 

Variable

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I think everyone can have their own classification when it comes to genres, but I think one thing that is constant, and from which the discussion started, is that documentaries are art. Art is so all encompassing that you can almost say when in doubt, it s art. All film making is comprised of several different art mediums, so of course the end result is one of a work of art. Fiction, nonfiction, documentary, bio, etc, makes no difference what it is classified as, it's all art in the end. Same thing with video games. I don't understand why some have such a tough time wrapping their head around it. It takes artists in various fields to create a movie or game, of course its art. Quality doesn't factor into it. The worst movie/game of all time is still art.
 

MassHavoc

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Where do bio-movies fit? I have always sort of considered bio-movies as documentary in nature but twisted into something out of that relm. Infact typing "bio-movie" feels awkward because I actually call them bio-films as I would a documentary style. Strange. Does this come down to fact and fiction in my minds organization? Do factual based stories get lumped into "film" while anything based on fiction gets referred to as "movie"? Could be.
I never really thought of them lie that honestly, i've always just kind of though at Bios as Docs for better or worse.



BHP... have you ever seen a documentary about documentaries? Or is that a paradox that would collapse the industry? haha
 

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