Official Carry-over Argument thread

RamiTheBullsFan

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Because that would be saying Pippen is better than lebron at something and that just can't happen on a Bulls forum.

So because it's a Bulls' forum, all impartial thought processes should be checked at the door?

Yeah... I disagree with this notion that Chicago fans are uneducated about their pro. sports.

And I've already said Pippen did a couple things better than LeBron. But Pippen, however, didn't have the ability to take over a game like you would want your superstar player to have the ability to do.

Pippen played the game with 5 loaded pistols while LeBron played it with 2 smaller pistols and 2 rocket launchers.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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Another point that I want to bring out rami. Why do you put pippens defense into context by saying he was a product of being able to hand check? Wouldn't that same rule apply to jame offensively? Wouldn't pippen benefit from the no hand check rule offensively like every other perimeter player?

And as far as defense goes, pippen not having to wrry about illegal defense would be insane.

I didn't say that Pippen was a product of that. I meant that LeBron James sure would have seemed like a lot more dominant defender if he was allowed to use that as an advantage.

And, yes, LeBron did have that advantage over Pippen.

But I would never claim that Pippen>James on offense.

Just like I would never claim that James>Pippen on defense.
 

Glide2keva

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Kobe > Pippen. A LOT>Pippen.
There are lot of great player that are better than Pippen, but those guys are ALL HOF'ers.

Pippen could never come close to 30 ppg. You act as though that's nothing to speak of.
I think Pippen could've gotten 25 PPG for his career if he was a more selfish player. He sacrificed his emoerging game to compliment Jordan. 30 PPG is nothing to sneeze at of course, but it's slightly getting overrated as people are seeming to use that as a the sole barometer on great players.

The difference is negligible.
No, it isn't.

The difference is negligible.
NO, IT ISN'T!

He doesn't shut down the weak side as well as Pippen.

The difference is negligible.
Again, it isn't!

More than Pippen.
One series against Detroit 4 years ago, that's about it.

Neither has Pippen.
Check Pippen's stats in closeout games in the NBA Finals and then get back to me.


Not true. Pippen said it and he didn't correct himself. He explained what he meant. And he wasn't exactly wrong. What he said was that James could be the best player of all-time if he had the desire. Pippen could never even dream of being the GOAT.
And he is still wrong.

He can be counted on more-so than Pippen.
Examples other than the Detroit series and that one game against the Magic?

But Pippen was better at it, so I'd take him over lebronze.
Now you'd take Pippen, before it was lebron.

Who's better than LeBron James right now? If you say Nowitzki, prepare to get laughed at. Wade's sure not. Kobe is diminishing in athletic ability. Dwight Howard is the only one with a slight, bogus case.
lebron is supposed to be the best in the league, yet he can't beat any of the players you listed.

The dunk contest? That doesn't mean a damn thing and is irrelevant to the entire conversation. LeBron James may be all of the things that you said he is. But, still, being the clown that he is, is STILL WAY better than Pippen as a whole. And is better than anybody else in the league. Imagine if he wasn't a clown. The guy would probably be the second best player in NBA history.
I was just saying that to show how much of an attention whore douchebag he is.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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I think Pippen could've gotten 25 PPG for his career if he was a more selfish player. He sacrificed his emoerging game to compliment Jordan. 30 PPG is nothing to sneeze at of course, but it's slightly getting overrated as people are seeming to use that as a the sole barometer on great players.

If there was a team in which Pippen was capable of scoring 25 ppg... I'd have to assume that team has absolute scrubs throughout the rest of that starting line-up and is one, if not, the worst team in the league. Pippen should thank Jordan for getting him all of those open shots. And it had less to do with Jordan passing him the ball as it does that 3 of 4 guys have their eyes on Jordan at ALL times.

Pippen probably would have averaged 18-22 points no matter what team he was on. He can thank Jordan for making his FG% as high as it was.

No, it isn't.

NO, IT ISN'T!



Again, it isn't!

If you think that the difference in LeBron-Pippen's defense is anywhere near the difference between their offense... you need to wake up. LeBron James had the ability to take over the game; Pippen didn't. Perimeter defense, while a nice feature, is something both players had. The difference is negligible between what LeBron can do to an opposing offense and what Pippen can do to an opposing offense. The offense between Pippen and LeBron is a vast difference because Pippen never demanded many double teams while James often demands attention from all 5 players on the floor. Sure, Pippen had to deal with hand-checking. But even so... the difference between Pippen and James in that regard is not even close when you look at LeBron's vastly superior athleticism and skillset.

One series against Detroit 4 years ago, that's about it.

And against Chicago. And Boston. And throughout the regular season. And Orlando. And Boston back in 2008 with SCRUB teammates!

Check Pippen's stats in closeout games in the NBA Finals and then get back to me.

Check who LeBron had as teammates in the 2007 Finals. As I recall, Pippen played against a depleted L.A. team in Game 5 in 1991 with injuries to Worthy and Scott. Game 6 of the 1996 NBA Finals was a blow-out and not exactly clutch stats there. Pippen has had more opportunities in the Finals than LeBron in the first place. And he can thank MJ.

And he is still wrong.

Nope he was right.

And let's say he was wrong- I guess his "basketball IQ" isn't all that great now as you claimed, is it?

Examples other than the Detroit series and that one game against the Magic?

Just named plenty. And James is much more clutch than Pippen offensively. It's not even close.

Now you'd take Pippen, before it was lebron.

You didn't even quote me. I dont know who said that.

lebron is supposed to be the best in the league, yet he can't beat any of the players you listed.

Yes, he could if he had a better supporting cast and system than those players. Basketball is 5 on 5! Not 1 on 1! And there are all kinds of factors involved- including coaching.

I was just saying that to show how much of an attention whore douchebag he is.

Whoopie. Then again, how does not entering in the dunk contest make him an attention whore?
 

Glide2keva

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I am just amazed at how many excuses are always made for lebron, that no other player gets.
 

scottiepippen1994

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If there was a team in which Pippen was capable of scoring 25 ppg... I'd have to assume that team has absolute scrubs throughout the rest of that starting line-up and is one, if not, the worst team in the league. Pippen should thank Jordan for getting him all of those open shots. And it had less to do with Jordan passing him the ball as it does that 3 of 4 guys have their eyes on Jordan at ALL times.

Pippen probably would have averaged 18-22 points no matter what team he was on. He can thank Jordan for making his FG% as high as it was.



If you think that the difference in LeBron-Pippen's defense is anywhere near the difference between their offense... you need to wake up. LeBron James had the ability to take over the game; Pippen didn't. Perimeter defense, while a nice feature, is something both players had. The difference is negligible between what LeBron can do to an opposing offense and what Pippen can do to an opposing offense. The offense between Pippen and LeBron is a vast difference because Pippen never demanded many double teams while James often demands attention from all 5 players on the floor. Sure, Pippen had to deal with hand-checking. But even so... the difference between Pippen and James in that regard is not even close when you look at LeBron's vastly superior athleticism and skillset.



And against Chicago. And Boston. And throughout the regular season. And Orlando. And Boston back in 2008 with SCRUB teammates!



Check who LeBron had as teammates in the 2007 Finals. As I recall, Pippen played against a depleted L.A. team in Game 5 in 1991 with injuries to Worthy and Scott. Game 6 of the 1996 NBA Finals was a blow-out and not exactly clutch stats there. Pippen has had more opportunities in the Finals than LeBron in the first place. And he can thank MJ.



Nope he was right.

And let's say he was wrong- I guess his "basketball IQ" isn't all that great now as you claimed, is it?



Just named plenty. And James is much more clutch than Pippen offensively. It's not even close.



You didn't even quote me. I dont know who said that.



Yes, he could if he had a better supporting cast and system than those players. Basketball is 5 on 5! Not 1 on 1! And there are all kinds of factors involved- including coaching.



Whoopie. Then again, how does not entering in the dunk contest make him an attention whore?

Pippen would **** Lebron up....That is all....:troll:
 

houheffna

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I could make a strong case for pippen over everyone on your list except jordan, wilt, duncan, shaq, russel, olajuwan, malone, and james if he starts to win multiple championships.

The rest can be argued for both sides.

No order:

Hands-down better than Pippen:

1. Jordan
2. Chamberlain
3. Russell
4. Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic
6. Olajuwon
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. Robertson
10. Bryant
11. James

By most accounts, overall better than Pippen:

12. Moses Malone
13. Karl Malone
14. Duncan
15. Garnett
16. Barkley
17. Robinson
18. Dr. J
19. Dwight Howard

Probably better than Pippen:

20. Stockton
21. Payton
22. West
23. Nowitzki
24. Ewing
25. Walton

A toss-up by most accounts:

(about 20 players in the group of Drexler, Gervin, Wilkens, Iverson, Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady)

I am not taking Pippen over Ewing, Walton (MVP Walton, Pip had a better career), West and definitely not Dirk. I take Bird over Pip pretty easily...and I take damn near any player that won a championship as the best player on his squad over Pippen. I think Pippen could compliment any player...I don't think he can win a title as the man. Don't think he was offensively sharp enough and don't think he could handle it mentally. Both Malones are better players. I take Oscar over Pippen...is there a doubt about that one?

I would love to see an argument of Pippen over David Robinson...lol. Good luck with that. I think Pippen and Wilkins is a virtual draw. Barkley is a no brainer to me...again, any player that averages damn near 23 and 12 for his whole career surpasses Pip. I will give you another name...Rick Barry. Led a team to a title...legit franchise player...top 50 all time...he should be considered.

What about today's players...Pip isn't better than the stars of the last 10 years...Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, even Durant...I can't say I would take Pip over any of them at their best. Pippen is a great player who complimented the greatest perfectly. Most, if not all of the players I named are franchise players you build around...and all were virtually unstoppable. That might be the difference...

I don't think championships are the deciding factor UNLESS you are the man. Pippen wasn't the man...
 

scottiepippen1994

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i am not taking pippen over ewing, walton (mvp walton, pip had a better career), west and definitely not dirk. I take bird over pip pretty easily...and i take damn near any player that won a championship as the best player on his squad over pippen. I think pippen could compliment any player...i don't think he can win a title as the man. Don't think he was offensively sharp enough and don't think he could handle it mentally. Both malones are better players. I take oscar over pippen...is there a doubt about that one?

I would love to see an argument of pippen over david robinson...lol. Good luck with that. I think pippen and wilkins is a virtual draw. Barkley is a no brainer to me...again, any player that averages damn near 23 and 12 for his whole career surpasses pip. I will give you another name...rick barry. Led a team to a title...legit franchise player...top 50 all time...he should be considered.

What about today's players...pip isn't better than the stars of the last 10 years...shaq, duncan, garnett, kobe, lebron, wade, carmelo, even durant...i can't say i would take pip over any of them at their best. Pippen is a great player who complimented the greatest perfectly. Most, if not all of the players i named are franchise players you build around...and all were virtually unstoppable. That might be the difference...

I don't think championships are the deciding factor unless you are the man. Pippen wasn't the man...


and you arnt the man!!!!
 

97Bulls

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I am not taking Pippen over Ewing, Walton (MVP Walton, Pip had a better career), West and definitely not Dirk. I take Bird over Pip pretty easily...and I take damn near any player that won a championship as the best player on his squad over Pippen. I think Pippen could compliment any player...I don't think he can win a title as the man. Don't think he was offensively sharp enough and don't think he could handle it mentally. Both Malones are better players. I take Oscar over Pippen...is there a doubt about that one?

I would love to see an argument of Pippen over David Robinson...lol. Good luck with that. I think Pippen and Wilkins is a virtual draw. Barkley is a no brainer to me...again, any player that averages damn near 23 and 12 for his whole career surpasses Pip. I will give you another name...Rick Barry. Led a team to a title...legit franchise player...top 50 all time...he should be considered.

What about today's players...Pip isn't better than the stars of the last 10 years...Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, even Durant...I can't say I would take Pip over any of them at their best. Pippen is a great player who complimented the greatest perfectly. Most, if not all of the players I named are franchise players you build around...and all were virtually unstoppable. That might be the difference...

I don't think championships are the deciding factor UNLESS you are the man. Pippen wasn't the man...

But your philosophy is flawed. Basically, if a player ain't the man, it must be because he's not good enough. That's just not a realistic summary of what a franchise player is. Cuz every player you named would be the number 2 guy if they played next to jordan.

And obviously all the players you mentioned were stopable, cuz they lost in most cases.

Like I said heff. Your not a bulls fan. And I'm sure you don't play basketball.
 

nwfisch

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But your philosophy is flawed. Basically, if a player ain't the man, it must be because he's not good enough. That's just not a realistic summary of what a franchise player is. Cuz every player you named would be the number 2 guy if they played next to jordan.

And obviously all the players you mentioned were stopable, cuz they lost in most cases.

Like I said heff. Your not a bulls fan. And I'm sure you don't play basketball.
That's just it, Pippen isn't the man because he played next to Jordan. He's a great player on his own, but to call him the man and the motor behind the Bulls 6 titles is wrong.
 

97Bulls

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How bout james worthy and kevin mchale. Would you guys take them over pippen?
 

97Bulls

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That's just it, Pippen isn't the man because he played next to Jordan. He's a great player on his own, but to call him the man and the motor behind the Bulls 6 titles is wrong.

I know he wasn't the man on the bulls. But that not a fair assesment either. What would happen if you take pippen off the bulls? And not replace him with anyone.do the bulls still win 6 championships?
 

nwfisch

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I know he wasn't the man on the bulls. But that not a fair assesment either. What would happen if you take pippen off the bulls? And not replace him with anyone.do the bulls still win 6 championships?
I don't honestly know. I'd lean to say no, but I still believe Jordan would have won 4-5 titles.
 

houheffna

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But your philosophy is flawed. Basically, if a player ain't the man, it must be because he's not good enough. That's just not a realistic summary of what a franchise player is. Cuz every player you named would be the number 2 guy if they played next to jordan.

And obviously all the players you mentioned were stopable, cuz they lost in most cases.

Like I said heff. Your not a bulls fan. And I'm sure you don't play basketball.

lol...done talking to you...
 

scottiepippen1994

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lol...done talking to you...

Thank God.

Everyone is tired of your neverending rants, false discredit and constant shots at the second greatest player in Bulls history...Don't come back now ya hear!!!!!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
 

nwfisch

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Thank God.

Everyone is tired of your neverending rants and discredit to the second gratest player in Bulls history...Don't come back now ya hear!!!!!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
:obama::obama::obama::obama::obama:
:obama::obama::obama::obama::obama:
 

nwfisch

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I still can't honestly believe that because people say Lebron is better than Pippen (WHICH PIPPEN HIMSELF SAID) that it's wrong. It's OK to be a fan, but when your opinion of a player is disputed by the player (Pippen) himself.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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The dumbest thing ever said by Houf, whatever it was, fails in comparison to saying that Derrick Rose's 2011 was better than any of Michael Jordan's seasons 1989-1998.
 

scottiepippen1994

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I still can't honestly believe that because people say Lebron is better than Pippen (WHICH PIPPEN HIMSELF SAID) that it's wrong. It's OK to be a fan, but when your opinion of a player is disputed by the player (Pippen) himself.

I think Pippen only said that Lebron was the greatest ever out of anger and sarcasm because the Bulls lost so easily.....Pippen knows dam well that Lebron is no Jordan...He knows it more than anyone, he played with him dam near his whole career.....Its foolish to believe that Pippen was actually 100% serious in his comments about Lebron...
 

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