Official Carry-over Argument thread

[RamiTheBullsFan]

This is absolutely ludicrous.

Wow, talk about overrated.

you sound like you got lebron posters on your wall with all of this garbage.

Seeing as how I hate LeBron with a passion, that assessment is also bullshit.

The problem is that I weigh players without bias clouding my judgement while you are willing to put Scottie ahead of just about anybody that his defense was even slightly better than.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

This is absolutely ludicrous.

Wow, talk about overrated.

you sound like you got lebron posters on your wall with all of this garbage.

And as "ludicrous" as you claim what I said to be, you would never dare break down what I said sentence-by-sentence and respond/rebut because, deep down, under all that red and black homer-vision, you know that I'm right.

 

[Glide2keva]

Being well rounded means you have an all around game is which can also be said that he has an overall game that can be described. LeBron is a good passer and a great rim attacker. He is a layup machine at best.

LeBron got the passing ability, and elite driving ability. But the 3point shooting by both of them are hit and miss, LeBron has improved his defense but he is not on Pippen's level in any aspect, but close to it. Dribbling ability, maybe better, but LeBron ain't breaking no ankles no more than Pippen is.

Well lebron is the be all, end all when it comes to basketball, you know?

He's the ultimate player. He does EVERYTHING better than anyone has ever done, ever in the history of the game. He gets that chase down block (his one defensive specialty), he hits that 3 where he takes 3 steps back (that he can't seem to hit with the game on the line). He has that awesome post game (oh wait, nevermind), he throws the most insane passes, Pistol Pete is jealous of his passing ability.

And don't forget about that one handed dunk that he's done ad-nauseum that Kevin Harlan jizzes his Jockey's over. lebron is the best player the league has ever seen.

Yeah, but he can't win when it counts (check his stats)

 

[Glide2keva]

What?!?!

I have already said that Pippen was one of the better players in NBA history. How the hell is that acting as if he was just a role player?? You are straight-up being deceptive.

I could make the case that saying something like 'Rose had the best season of any Bulls' player since Jordan in 1988' is a completely terrible assessment and an insult to the greatness of Michael Jordan.

Fact is... all other things the same... if the Bulls pass up Jordan in the 1984 draft... Pippen has ZERO championships. And the Bulls have ZERO as a team.

And I never said Pippen could easily be replaced. That is straight-up lying. I said that a player like Grant Hill or Kendall Gill in Pippen's place would have also resulted in multiple titles. Get that bullshit out of here.

And you are completely wrong in your assessment that Hill or Gill could've taken Pippen's place.

 

[DCguy]

LeBron James is definitely a better athlete than Pippen and almost every skill (shooting, passing, rebounding, ball-handling, finishing ability) is better. The reason Pippen was a better defender than James is because of his length advantage.

The offense is not even debatable. Despite the lack-of post-up game (Pip's post-up game was far from elite either), LeBron James is miles ahead of Pip scoring. Passing too.

Pippen has the advantage on defense but not by much at all.

I will give you passing, driving and finishing ability. LeBron is not a shooter by any sense, neither was Pippen. LeBron is a better scorer because he can attack the rim so well and draw contact and he has improved his free throw shooting. Rebounding LeBron may have a slight advantage. Ball-handling is a wash, both can control the ball and get where they want, but again, they are both not ankle breakers, so again, even to me.

Pippen's post game compared to LeBron's is elite. To me Pippen is a better defender because he has a better feel for defense and he puts more effort in it than LeBron. Pippen is also better at the defensive end because he has better fundamentals. LeBron always stands straight up. In any sport its never good to stand straight up, always have your knees bent, LeBron doesn't do that, which is why in the Finals Terry and Barea eventually ran circles around him because of his poor defensive stance.

Great athlete with natural ability, but he has not honed his skills and it shows when he fizzles out in the playoffs. I will give him that he became a streak shooter instead of having no J at all and became a pretty good free throw shooter. But outside of that it's the same guy we've seen in 2003.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Well lebron is the be all, end all when it comes to basketball, you know?

He's the ultimate player. He does EVERYTHING better than anyone has ever done, ever in the history of the game. He gets that chase down block (his one defensive specialty), he hits that 3 where he takes 3 steps back (that he can't seem to hit with the game on the line). He has that awesome post game (oh wait, nevermind), he throws the most insane passes, Pistol Pete is jealous of his passing ability.

And don't forget about that one handed dunk that he's done ad-nauseum that Kevin Harlan jizzes his Jockey's over. lebron is the best player the league has ever seen.

Yeah, but he can't win when it counts (check his stats)

You do realize that LeBron James simply had a sub-par supporting cast up until this season, right? He has never had what Jordan had when he won all of his titles. He has never had what Kobe Bryant had when he won his last two. He has never had what Shaquille had during his first three. Do you think LeBron James simply hasn't won an NBA championship because he wasn't good enough to as a player? Is that why Malone and Barkley never won one? No.

The reason LeBron James has never won a title is because, ultimately, he has run into a team that was better than his. He fucked up the Dallas series pretty badly. But that team also had tons more depth and a LOT better coaching than Miami... and the Heat STILL nearly swept them. They actually should have been up 3-2 games in that series going into Miami if it wasn't for a blown call against LeBron James (called an offensive foul that should have been an and-1 to give the Heat the lead with about 1:00 to go).

 

[Glide2keva]

Seeing as how I hate LeBron with a passion, that assessment is also bullshit.

I can't tell. You do nothing but praise him as if he's paying you. I hate lebron with a passion.

The problem is that I weigh players without bias clouding my judgment while you are willing to put Scottie ahead of just about anybody that his defense was even slightly better than.

Because there is more to the game than scoring 30 PPG. Defense and versatility and willingness to do what it takes to win matters more to me.

Maybe you like all the scoring (chicks dig the long-ball), but I think lebron can score whenever he wants to, but what else can he do? He isn't taking anyone in the post consistently. He'll get lucky every now and then, but that's about it. He get that one chase down block every 3-4 games and people go crazy.

And I have no problem judging him without bias, but no one takes my words seriously, so I say whatever I want about him since it doesn't matter what I say.

 

[DCguy]

Well lebron is the be all, end all when it comes to basketball, you know?

He's the ultimate player. He does EVERYTHING better than anyone has ever done, ever in the history of the game. He gets that chase down block (his one defensive specialty), he hits that 3 where he takes 3 steps back (that he can't seem to hit with the game on the line). He has that awesome post game (oh wait, nevermind), he throws the most insane passes, Pistol Pete is jealous of his passing ability.

And don't forget about that one handed dunk that he's done ad-nauseum that Kevin Harlan jizzes his Jockey's over. lebron is the best player the league has ever seen.

Yeah, but he can't win when it counts (check his stats)

Yeah I have noticed that, people on here defend LeBron with their lives. I'm surprised that those same people still believe Michael Jordan is better than him....

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And you are completely wrong in your assessment that Hill or Gill could've taken Pippen's place.

Nope, I'm not. Because Hill had a better prime than Pippen. During those final three seasons, Hill would have been a stellar replacement for Pippen and the Bulls might have actually been as good or better than what they were in 1996. But even if that is not true... they still would have won all three titles without a shadow of a doubt.

Kendall Gill wouldn't have been nearly as good of a replacement as Hill but they still would have been the favorites to win the title against what was in the league at that time. Gill was not nearly the offensive player that Pippen was but he wasn't far behind what Pippen brought defensively. Jordan would have had to pick up a lot of slack on the boards, but he was PLENTY capable of doing so.

 

[DCguy]

You do realize that LeBron James simply had a sub-par supporting cast up until this season, right? He has never had what Jordan had when he won all of his titles. He has never had what Kobe Bryant had when he won his last two. He has never had what Shaquille had during his first three. Do you think LeBron James simply hasn't won an NBA championship because he wasn't good enough to as a player? Is that why Malone and Barkley never won one? No.

The reason LeBron James has never won a title is because, ultimately, he has run into a team that was better than his. He fucked up the Dallas series pretty badly. But that team also had tons more depth and a LOT better coaching than Miami... and the Heat STILL nearly swept them. They actually should have been up 3-2 games in that series going into Miami if it wasn't for a blown call against LeBron James (called an offensive foul that should have been an and-1 to give the Heat the lead with about 1:00 to go).

Rami I hear you and some others say that the Heat nearly swept the Heat. But they never won two straight games that series. They Mavericks won three straight; they are the ones who nearly swept the Heat.

 

[Glide2keva]

i will give you passing, driving and finishing ability. Lebron is not a shooter by any sense, neither was pippen. Lebron is a better scorer because he can attack the rim so well and draw contact and he has improved his free throw shooting. Rebounding lebron may have a slight advantage. Ball-handling is a wash, both can control the ball and get where they want, but again, they are both not ankle breakers, so again, even to me.

Pippen's post game compared to lebron's is elite. To me pippen is a better defender because he has a better feel for defense and he puts more effort in it than lebron. Pippen is also better at the defensive end because he has better fundamentals. Lebron always stands straight up. In any sport its never good to stand straight up, always have your knees bent, lebron doesn't do that, which is why in the finals terry and barea eventually ran circles around him because of his poor defensive stance.

Great athlete with natural ability, but he has not honed his skills and it shows when he fizzles out in the playoffs. I will give him that he became a streak shooter instead of having no j at all and became a pretty good free throw shooter. But outside of that it's the same guy we've seen in 2003.

thank you!!!!!!!

 

[Glide2keva]

You do realize that LeBron James simply had a sub-par supporting cast up until this season, right? He has never had what Jordan had when he won all of his titles. He has never had what Kobe Bryant had when he won his last two. He has never had what Shaquille had during his first three. Do you think LeBron James simply hasn't won an NBA championship because he wasn't good enough to as a player? Is that why Malone and Barkley never won one? No.

Yes I do think he isn't good enough as a player or leader to win, or he would've won. Malone and Barkley are different, they both ran into Jordan so their situations don't compare here.

The reason LeBron James has never won a title is because, ultimately, he has run into a team that was better than his. He fucked up the Dallas series pretty badly. But that team also had tons more depth and a LOT better coaching than Miami. And the Heat STILL nearly swept them. They actually should have been up 3-2 games in that series going into Miami if it wasn't for a blown call against LeBron James (called an offensive foul that should have been an and-1 to give the Heat the lead with about 1:00 to go).

Sounds like excuses to me. The same thing that no one gives the Bulls when they lose. lebron is nothing more than empty stats until he proves otherwise. He's going into his 9th season and most people were predicting he'd have at least 1 or 2 titles by now.

That has not happened.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I can't tell. You do nothing but praise him as if he's paying you. I hate lebron with a passion.

You cannot hate a player if you believe that he is a great player? That is one of the most asinine things ever uttered on this forum.

Because there is more to the game than scoring 30 PPG.

No shit?

Defense and versatility and willingness to do what it takes to win matters more to me.

LeBron has defense. Nearly as good defense as Pippen had and in some facets maybe even better.

And Pippen never did anything more in the clutch than LeBron could do. You can knock LeBron for not living up to his potential and cowering away. But a cowering LeBron on offense is STILL better than anything Pippen brings to the table on offense. That's just how great of an athlete James is. He's a GOAT-capable talent; PIPPEN SAID SO HIMSELF!

Maybe you like all the scoring (chicks dig the long-ball), but I think lebron can score whenever he wants to, but what else can he do?

That is the biggest oxymoron I've ever read.

LeBron can score basically whenever he wants but what else can he do? That's like saying Dr. Evil has a bomb and is going to blow up the center of the Earth and killing us all and we are powerless to stop him; but what else can he do?

He isn't taking anyone in the post consistently.

Niether could Pippen.

He'll get lucky every now and then, but that's about it. He get that one chase down block every 3-4 games and people go crazy.

Pippen could do those same things as LeBron could when it comes to chasing down the guy. And Pippen was a better post scorer seeing as how he could actually utilize it at times. LeBron really can't unless he gets an offensive rebound and is already in deep position. The problem with using that as an advantage over Scottie is that is how Pippen got most of his low-post buckets too. The difference between him and LeBron is that Pippen was a little bit longer with some post moves and a little jump-hook and floater. LeBron really doesn't. But he doesn't need it to be the greatest player in the world today. And that is a testament to how great he is at what he already does. Pippen couldn't blow by basically any defender; LeBron can. Pippen couldn't dunk over basically everybody; LeBron can. Pippen couldn't consistently draw contact and get to the line at will; LeBron can. The FT attempts per-game prove it. Pippen couldn't shoot like LeBron could. Pippen isn't even close to having the court-vision or passing ability as Pippen either.

And I have no problem judging him without bias, but no one takes my words seriously, so I say whatever I want about him since it doesn't matter what I say.

That is simply false. The only things positive you've said about LeBron have come tacked along with something undermining it. Those are back-handed compliments.

 

[Glide2keva]

Nope, I'm not. Because Hill had a better prime than Pippen. During those final three seasons, Hill would have been a stellar replacement for Pippen and the Bulls might have actually been as good or better than what they were in 1996. But even if that is not true... they still would have won all three titles without a shadow of a doubt.

Dude, stop. Hill may have the ability to step into Pippen's place, but he wouldn't be nearly as good playing next to MJ. They had similar skill sets, but Pippen was better defensively and in those areas that don't show up on the stat sheet than Hill was. He was an excellent scorer (for a Duke player), and a very good defender, but to say he would seamlessly fill in is crazy.

Kendall Gill wouldn't have been nearly as good of a replacement as Hill but they still would have been the favorites to win the title against what was in the league at that time. Gill was not nearly the offensive player that Pippen was but he wasn't far behind what Pippen brought defensively. Jordan would have had to pick up a lot of slack on the boards, but he was PLENTY capable of doing so.

Gill? No, stop it, now it's just ridiculous. Kendall Gill wanted to be a scorer and that's it. He was okay on defense, but nothing like Pippen was. You would not be able to run the offense through Gill the way you could with Pippen.

Wow.

 

[DCguy]

Yes I do think he isn't good enough as a player or leader to win, or he would've won. Malone and Barkley are different, they both ran into Jordan so their situations don't compare here.

Sounds like excuses to me. The same thing that no one gives the Bulls when they lose. lebron is nothing more than empty stats until he proves otherwise. He's going into his 9th season and most people were predicting he'd have at least 1 or 2 titles by now.

That has not happened.

This guy was on the Jordan model, year 7 he was supposed to get his ring, but instead he gets put out in the 2nd round and his "poor supporting cast" is the fault. LeBron has had a built in excuse his who whole time in Cleveland because his teammates were never good enough. Now he goes play with a guy in his prime that helped lead a team to a title in Dwyane Wade and he lays down.

Like you said, Barkley and Malone ran into the best player on the planet and lost to him. LeBron is supposedly the best player on the planet so who is he running into? Better teams? If he got arguably 2 other top 5 to top 10 players, depending on how you view them, he should easily have the best team. He didn't "f" up in the Finals. He was expecting the Mavericks to lay down and they didn't, so he laid down.

Wade gave him game 2. He did all the work the first three quarters, told LBJ to close us out, and he missed shot after shot and layup after layup. He caused them that game. After that he went in a hole because he was afraid to LeBrick it up like that again.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Yes I do think he isn't good enough as a player or leader to win, or he would've won. Malone and Barkley are different, they both ran into Jordan so their situations don't compare here.

Sounds like excuses to me. The same thing that no one gives the Bulls when they lose. lebron is nothing more than empty stats until he proves otherwise. He's going into his 9th season and most people were predicting he'd have at least 1 or 2 titles by now.

That has not happened.

If Malone's Jazz ran into Jordan without his supporting cast then it would have been a different story. Same with Barkley's Suns. Same with Ewing's Knicks.

Jordan would never even won a playoff series if he was stuck with the supporting cast that the Charlotte Bobcats or Toronto Raptors have now. That's a terrible way to measure a player by who wins playoffs series head-to-head.

LeBron James' Cavs ran into Kobe's Lakers and KG's Celtics and Dwight Howard's Magic. And Duncan's Spurs. Those were all great leaders with better supporting casts when the Cavs' lost to them.

You better believe that if the Lakers didn't have Pau Gasol, or the Celtics didn't have Paul Pierce, or the Magic didn't have Hedo Turkoglu that things would have worked out differently.

 

[Glide2keva]

You cannot hate a player if you believe that he is a great player? That is one of the most asinine things ever uttered on this forum.

I hate Kobe, but I think he's a great player, a little overrated, but a great player. Since I hate him, I'm not going to defend him in any sense.

No shit?

Yeah shit.

LeBron has defense. Nearly as good defense as Pippen had and in some facets maybe even better.

Unless you count the chase down block, he does nothing on defense better than Pippen. He isn't as good a help defender as Pippen. He doesn't shut down the weak side as well as Pippen.

And Pippen never did anything more in the clutch than LeBron could do. You can knock LeBron for not living up to his potential and cowering away. But a cowering LeBron on offense is STILL better than anything Pippen brings to the table on offense. That's just how great of an athlete James is. He's a GOAT-capable talent; PIPPEN SAID SO HIMSELF!

What has lebron done in the clutch? Oh you mean in games where the title isn't on the line because I haven't seen him do anything in the Finals. Pippen also retracted that statement as soon as he said it.

That is the biggest oxymoron I've ever read.

LeBron can score basically whenever he wants but what else can he do? That's like saying Dr. Evil has a bomb and is going to blow up the center of the Earth and killing us all and we are powerless to stop him; but what else can he do?

Meaning that yeah, he can score, but when the pressure's on, he isn't one to be counted on.

Neither could Pippen.

But Pippen was better at it, so I'd take him over lebronze.

Pippen could do those same things as LeBron could when it comes to chasing down the guy. And Pippen was a better post scorer seeing as how he could actually utilize it at times. LeBron really can't unless he gets an offensive rebound and is already in deep position. The problem with using that as an advantage over Scottie is that is how Pippen got most of his low-post buckets too. The difference between him and LeBron is that Pippen was a little bit longer with some post moves and a little jump-hook and floater. LeBron really doesn't. But he doesn't need it to be the greatest player in the world today. And that is a testament to how great he is at what he already does. Pippen couldn't blow by basically any defender; LeBron can. Pippen couldn't dunk over basically everybody; LeBron can. Pippen couldn't consistently draw contact and get to the line at will; LeBron can. The FT attempts per-game prove it. Pippen couldn't shoot like LeBron could. Pippen isn't even close to having the court-vision or passing ability as Pippen either.

So much in that. Okay, you're about the post game and you're wrong to say lebron doesn't need it to be the best. He does. If he doesn't need it, then that not a testament to how great he really is, but more an indictment on the competition around him that he doesn't have to improve his game.

That is simply false. The only things positive you've said about LeBron have come tacked along with something undermining it. Those are back-handed compliments.

I said I could, I just really choose not to. I choose not because I see lebron differently. While everyone goes gaga over his highlights, I look at what he does on the court. He's a front runner. He likes to show-boat and hot dog it. He wants it to be easy. He doesn't want to work hard for it when it's time to step up. I don't buy into the runaway hype and never have. I've always taken a let's see what he does approach with him, and he hasn't done much but made some highlights and put up empty stats. Oh, and he put his name in the dunk contest and then back out like a chump.

 

[DCguy]

If Malone's Jazz ran into Jordan without his supporting cast then it would have been a different story. Same with Barkley's Suns. Same with Ewing's Knicks.

Jordan would never even won a playoff series if he was stuck with the supporting cast that the Charlotte Bobcats or Toronto Raptors have now. That's a terrible way to measure a player by who wins playoffs series head-to-head.

LeBron James' Cavs ran into Kobe's Lakers and KG's Celtics and Dwight Howard's Magic. And Duncan's Spurs. Those were all great leaders with better supporting casts when the Cavs' lost to them.

You better believe that if the Lakers didn't have Pau Gasol, or the Celtics didn't have Paul Pierce, or the Magic didn't have Hedo Turkoglu that things would have worked out differently.

But Jordan's supporting cast weren't deemed good enough until 91, after they won the championship. He proved his naysayers wrong. LeBron couldn't do that.

By the way, LeBron got sparred from getting beatdown by Kobe in the Finals.

 

[Glide2keva]

This guy was on the Jordan model, year 7 he was supposed to get his ring, but instead he gets put out in the 2nd round and his "poor supporting cast" is the fault. LeBron has had a built in excuse his who whole time in Cleveland because his teammates were never good enough. Now he goes play with a guy in his prime that helped lead a team to a title in Dwyane Wade and he lays down.

That's what always pissed me off with him also. When he wins, he's great and is the best. When he loses, it's his teammates fault. No one gets that excuse but him. It's never his fault.

Like you said, Barkley and Malone ran into the best player on the planet and lost to him. LeBron is supposedly the best player on the planet so who is he running into? Better teams? If he got arguably 2 other top 5 to top 10 players, depending on how you view them, he should easily have the best team. He didn't "f" up in the Finals. He was expecting the Mavericks to lay down and they didn't, so he laid down.

Exactly! He's supposedly the best in the world, the king, all of that. Where are his rings? And you're absolutely right about him expecting Dallas to fold to his awesomeness and when that didn't happen, he wilted like a weed. And to think, people say they nearly swept Dallas when they never won 2 games in a row. Would they be willing to say the Bulls nearly swept Miami?

No. Because Miami was better than the Bulls as they say.

Wade gave him game 2. He did all the work the first three quarters, told LBJ to close us out, and he missed shot after shot and layup after layup. He caused them that game. After that he went in a hole because he was afraid to LeBrick it up like that again.

He's no leader and let the Jet talk him right out of the game.

 

[Glide2keva]

If Malone's Jazz ran into Jordan without his supporting cast then it would have been a different story. Same with Barkley's Suns. Same with Ewing's Knicks.

Who has lebron run into exactly? Neither Barkley nor Malone were the best in the league. lebron has had the best team for the last 3 seasons supposedly, but he loses every time.

Jordan would never even won a playoff series if he was stuck with the supporting cast that the Charlotte Bobcats or Toronto Raptors have now. That's a terrible way to measure a player by who wins playoffs series head-to-head.

I never made the comparison, you did. I said you can't compare those situations because Jordan held a lot of people ringless and lebron has no excuse.

LeBron James' Cavs ran into Kobe's Lakers and KG's Celtics and Dwight Howard's Magic. And Duncan's Spurs. Those were all great leaders with better supporting casts when the Cavs' lost to them.

Kobe's Lakers? Um he's only played the Spurs and Mavs in the Finals. He never played Kobe in the playoffs, stop it. His team was supposed ot be better than that Magic team and that Celtics team, yet he dropped bot series.

You better believe that if the Lakers didn't have Pau Gasol, or the Celtics didn't have Paul Pierce, or the Magic didn't have Hedo Turkoglu that things would have worked out differently.

I'm still trying to figure out when he made the Finals again. Because he has never played Kobe in the playoffs, ever.