Official Carry-over Argument thread

[97Bulls]

Your questioning my allegiance if hilarious...I question your fandom, judgement and your damn eyesight. i have watched you put down player after player for Pippen...even Jordan! Did you not say at one point that Jordan wasn't a winner until Pippen showed up? You had to recant that b.s....

Pippen missed shot after shot in the fourth quarter and if I remember correctly, couldn't get a shot off before Patrick Ewing hit the shot to tie the game. Just as in the first two games, Kukoc got the shot because he had proven that he could hit the shot. As far as your story, Pippen didn't seem to buy that did he?

I didn't recant anything, I rephrased my pov. And my alluding to jordan not winning a championshiip in his first few years was not an indictment. I used that example to show that everyone needs a great team to lead to be successfull. Even the greatest of all time. Pippen not winning a championship in his one year leading a team should not be an idication that he was incapable of leading a team to a championship.

Pippen didn't care about why the play wasn't drawn up for him, he just knew the play wasn't gonna be drawn up for him. I understand why jackson did what he did. With 1.8 seconds, your only gonna have time for a jumpshot. Pippen was not the bulls best jumpshooter. Kerr and Kukoc were.

And I've never attacked anyone in the name of pippen. Where did this nonsense come from?

 

[97Bulls]

Whatever you say man.
I think its officially time for you to change your screenname from HueHefna to Hue Hollins..

Great post SP94.

 

[Glide2keva]

I see hou is back to his old ways of name calling and being a blowhard.

What were you saying about him changing Rami?

 

[97Bulls]

A. I dont think mutombo deserved DPOY that year...although i would say that the nuggets didnt have alot of great defensive options around mutombo..who was a monster in the post defensively then

B. You list some good examples, but relatively few...a couple of games in the playoffs(this includes elimination games) is not nearly enough for me to think that Pippen is overall a dominant offensive player

i concede he may be able to,in some occasions, lead the offense...but that doesnt mean he was reliable in leading the offense on a consistent basis

his offensive production actually went down in playoffs..in fact in 95 he only averaged 18 PPG in the playoffs

look, im not saying pippen was terrible on offense..but in contrast, he was certainly not a juggernaut...

again, there's a reason he didnt demand the amount of possessions that some of the better offensive players did/do...because that was not his game...

and look, i dont hate pippen at all..this has nothing to do with emotional opinion.. and i think pippen was a fantastic player probably top 30-40..but i dont think he was the DPOY in 95(i think its actually close but i always feel that the preference should be to the guys in the low post that change the game for penetrators and contain bigs..and in the 90s bigs ruled so having a great shot blocker and overall good post defender is crucial)

I could just go back an list every great statistical game pippen has had and I guarantee it won't be enough for some reason. Besides, the point you made was that pippen couldn't take over games offensively. He's obviously had many high scoring games in the playoffs. But when your playing next to jordan, its gonna be hard to get out of his shadow. And there's two reasons pippen didn't demand the amount of possesions of other offensive players.
1. He played next to jordan
2. That wasn't his role on the team.

And ill even add a third. Pippen just wasn't a big time scorer. That wasn't what made him great. His versitility is what made him great. Ill never understand the concept of comparing players but only use one of the players strength.

And I think your in the same boat as rami. There's nothing pippen could've done to win dpoy cuz he's not a center. Even though statistically, he was just as dominant as a center. Unless you feel luc longley was the bulls defensive anchor.

 

[Glide2keva]

And ill even add a third. Pippen just wasn't a big time scorer. That wasn't what made him great. His versatility is what made him great. Ill never understand the concept of comparing players but only use one of the players strength.

It's called an agenda.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

There are only 10-15 players in the entire history of the league that are undeniably better than Pippen. He was an amazing player despite his inability to score at will like some of the other all-time greats. He was still one of the best scorers in the league when he played, regardless.

 

[97Bulls]

There are only 10-15 players in the entire history of the league that are undeniably better than Pippen. He was an amazing player despite his inability to score at will like some of the other all-time greats. He was still one of the best scorers in the league when he played, regardless.

Great post rami.

 

[97Bulls]

It's called an agenda.

Lol

 

[houheffna]

There are only 10-15 players in the entire history of the league that are undeniably better than Pippen. He was an amazing player despite his inability to score at will like some of the other all-time greats. He was still one of the best scorers in the league when he played, regardless.

I couldn't disagree more...he doesn't touch the top 15...again, doesn't mean he isn't a great player...he just doesn't touch that list...

 

[houheffna]

I see hou is back to his old ways f name calling and being a blowhard.

What were you saying about him changing Rami?

Well, when/if you have sons, you can teach them to back down when someone attacks them...I was taught to stand up for myself, I don't mind doing it...that bothers you?

I don't know whether your following me around from thread to thread so obviously is a hobby of yours...I find that to be a miserable existence brother...go buy a playstation.

 

[houheffna]

Divac was probably the 5th best player on the lakers behind magic, worthy, perkins, and scott. 6th if you count ac green. Kukoc was the third best player on the bulls in 94. And like I said, divac had a year under his belt in 91. Kukoc was a rookie. Its this kind if reasoning that leads me to question your position as a bulls fan. You just don't see things the way a fan of a team does.d

And I don't feel the lakers over-achieved like the bulls. In fact, they underachieved. They won 58 games after winning 63 the year before. And this was after upgrading their center position by replacing jabaar with sam perkins

As far as phil jackson....I feel he was robbed of the coach of the year award. He definately deserved it.

Definitely flawed reasoning here...the Lakers going to the Finals was considered over achievement. Portland was a better team and was the best team in the league that year in my opinion. Portland was the team I was scared of...

Where Vlade was on the totem pole is not very significant...he started the whole season...and Kukoc's significance rose as the season went along, he proved to be a big go to guy for the Bulls...but that season he was 4th most important at best...Horace and B.J. had good years and had more responsibility.

 

[Uman85]

You can argue in this thread, but there's no need for the name-calling and insults. You all say you're mature, then act like it. Back up your arguments with facts, not insults.

 

[Glide2keva]

You can argue in this thread, but there's no need for the name-calling and insults. You all say you're mature, then act like it. Back up your arguments with facts, not insults.

Dude has the maturity level of a split pea. What do you expect?

 

[97Bulls]

I couldn't disagree more...he doesn't touch the top 15...again, doesn't mean he isn't a great player...he just doesn't touch that list...

He's not saying pippen is top 15. He said there's only 15 players that pippen has NO CASE against

 

[97Bulls]

Definitely flawed reasoning here...the Lakers going to the Finals was considered over achievement. Portland was a better team and was the best team in the league that year in my opinion. Portland was the team I was scared of...

Where Vlade was on the totem pole is not very significant...he started the whole season...and Kukoc's significance rose as the season went along, he proved to be a big go to guy for the Bulls...but that season he was 4th most important at best...Horace and B.J. had good years and had more responsibility.

Lol yes they did upset the blazers and I guess you can call that overachieving. But don't act like the lakers making the finals was some spectacular feat. I believe they had the best record in basketball the previous year with 63 wins. Then were upset in the semis by the suns.

If you saw what scottie pippen did the same way you see the accomplishments of virtually every other player, maybe you would think pippen is a top 15 player.

Besides. What magic and the lakers did in the playoffs has no bearing on the regular season mvp cuz the mvp has already been picked.

 

[Glide2keva]

Lol yes they did upset the blazers and I guess you can call that overachieving. But don't act like the lakers making the finals was some spectacular feat. I believe they had the best record in basketball the previous year with 63 wins. Then were upset in the semis by the suns.

If you saw what scottie pippen did the same way you see the accomplishments of virtually every other player, maybe you would think pippen is a top 15 player.

Besides. What magic and the lakers did in the playoffs has no bearing on the regular season mvp cuz the mvp has already been picked.

Please stop trying to reason with him.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I couldn't disagree more...he doesn't touch the top 15...again, doesn't mean he isn't a great player...he just doesn't touch that list...

No order:

Hands-down better than Pippen:

1. Jordan
2. Chamberlain
3. Russell
4. Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic
6. Olajuwon
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. Robertson
10. Bryant
11. James

By most accounts, overall better than Pippen:

12. Moses Malone
13. Karl Malone
14. Duncan
15. Garnett
16. Barkley
17. Robinson
18. Dr. J
19. Dwight Howard

Probably better than Pippen:

20. Stockton
21. Payton
22. West
23. Nowitzki
24. Ewing
25. Walton

A toss-up by most accounts:

(about 20 players in the group of Drexler, Gervin, Wilkens, Iverson, Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady)

 

[Glide2keva]

No order:

Hands-down better than Pippen:

1. Jordan
2. Chamberlain
3. Russell
4. Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic
6. Olajuwon
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. Robertson
10. Bryant
11. James

By most accounts, overall better than Pippen:

12. Moses Malone
13. Karl Malone
14. Duncan
15. Garnett
16. Barkley
17. Robinson
18. Dr. J
19. Dwight Howard

Probably better than Pippen:

20. Stockton
21. Payton
22. West
23. Nowitzki
24. Ewing
25. Walton

A toss-up by most accounts:

(about 20 players in the group of Drexler, Gervin, Wilkens, Iverson, Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady)

He definitely goes over Payton, who in my estimation was way overrated.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

He definitely goes over Payton, who in my estimation was way overrated.

Not true. You can't say definitely to that one either. Payton was a dominant defender. He defended the PG position as well or better than anyone. He also guarded the elite 2 guards. He was a MUCH better passer and a better scorer than Pippen.

 

[97Bulls]

No order:

Hands-down better than Pippen:

1. Jordan
2. Chamberlain
3. Russell
4. Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic
6. Olajuwon
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. Robertson
10. Bryant
11. James

By most accounts, overall better than Pippen:

12. Moses Malone
13. Karl Malone
14. Duncan
15. Garnett
16. Barkley
17. Robinson
18. Dr. J
19. Dwight Howard

Probably better than Pippen:

20. Stockton
21. Payton
22. West
23. Nowitzki
24. Ewing
25. Walton

A toss-up by most accounts:

(about 20 players in the group of Drexler, Gervin, Wilkens, Iverson, Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady)

I could make a strong case for pippen over everyone on your list except jordan, wilt, duncan, shaq, russel, olajuwan, malone, and james if he starts to win multiple championships.

The rest can be argued for both sides.