Official Carry-over Argument thread

[houheffna]

I'll take Pippen over Wilkens. And you left out Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron James as guys who easily finish in front of Pippen.

Pippen was barely top 10 in the decade he played in...he ain't top 10 all time...not even close...that doesn't mean he isn't a great player, there are more than 10 of those (that's for the superfans who will inevitably twist my words...).

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Pippen was barely top 10 in the decade he played in...he ain't top 10 all time...not even close...that doesn't mean he isn't a great player, there are more than 10 of those (that's for the superfans who will inevitably twist my words...).

90s?...probably not

but i do think at his peak he was a top 5 player in the league because of his overall ability versatility,defense

although, he never was necessarily clutch offensively or a commanding player who could carry a team

i guess its hard to say how pippen would have done in a longer role as a #1...but judging from the criteria(or the criteria im assuming)...we are talking about what actually happened in their careers rather than potential
or hypothetical

though i will say that pippen even in a lead role was never an offensively dominate player...frankly that's what set him apart from the very best like top 20 top 10 all time...if you look at the list of the top 10-20 all time(of course the lists are subjective but you can find the standard deviation of the rankings in a sense) those guys were (mostly) complete juggernauts on both ends of the floor, they could carry a team on either end of the court

then you could argue, well pippen never got as many possessions as some others got..yes,true, and he was rather efficient(atleast shooting wise) with the possessions he made..but you forget WHY he did not get as many possessions as other players offensively.. its because he did not have the offensive skill set required to take responsibility for all those possessions(dont take this as an insult, but im saying pippen's offensive skill set is awesome, but it is incomparable to kobe,jordan,lebron,etc.)...

 

[DCguy]

Jordan had great interior defenders throughout his championship tenure. Longley was one of the better low-post defenders and shot-blockers in the league. Rodman could defend the low-post extremely well himself.

Cartwright and Grant were both good shot-blockers and low-post defenders.

But they were led by a backcourt player in Jordan when most observers didn't think such players could have such an impact on the game while leading the league in scoring at the same time which was also believed not to be realistic from basketball minds at that time .

Now the big men the Bulls had were good fits, but all they needed out of them was rebounding and low post defense primarily, anything else positive from them was a plus.

 

[houheffna]

I think Ben Wallace probably deserved it when Artest won it.

It's harder for me to lay claims in seasons that I didn't watch much basketball because I was an infant/toddler. But generally, big men are going to be ahead of much of the pack when it comes to being great defensive players. And that is simply because their role on defense is the most important.

Pippen is the undisputed king of defense at his position. I never said otherwise.

Oh...speaking of awards, if you want to talk about a player carrying a team...there was an award for that...the IBM Award...remember that???

"[FONT=verdana, helvetica]The IBM award is described as honoring the player who contributes most to his team's overall success. It began in the 1983-84 season as the Schick Pivotal player award. In 1988 the title was shortened to the Schick award."

Okay, here is the list...and this was strictly computational...not subjective at all...here is the formula...

[/FONT][FONT=verdana, helvetica]
Player pts + reb + ast + stl + bl - pf - to + (team wins X 10) X 250
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Team pts - fga + reb + ast + stl + bl - pf - to

Now here is the list of winners...

[/FONT][FONT=verdana, helvetica][SIZE=-0] Season Player Team 2001-02 Tim Duncan. . . . .San Antonio 2000-01 Shaquille O'Neal. .L.A. Lakers 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal. .L.A. Lakers 1998-99 Dikembe Mutombo. . Atlanta 1997-98 Karl Malone. . . . Utah 1996-97 Grant Hill. . . . .Detroit 1995-96 David Robinson. . .San Antonio 1994-95 David Robinson. . .San Antonio 1993-94 David Robinson. . .San Antonio 1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon. . Houston 1991-92 Dennis Rodman. . . Detroit 1990-91 David Robinson. . .San Antonio 1989-90 David Robinson. . .San Antonio 1988-89 Michael Jordan. . .Chicago 1987-88 Charles Barkley. . Philadelphia 1986-87 Charles Barkley. . Philadelphia 1985-86 Charles Barkley. . Philadelphia 1984-85 Michael Jordan. . .Chicago 1983-84 Magic Johnson. . . L.A. Lakers

[/SIZE][/FONT]Now why in the hell ain't Pippen on this list? I see Magic, Jordan, Rodman, Robinson 5x! Shaq...oh wait Mutombo, Hakeem..and guess who won the award a couple of years after that failure in the Olympics 97 Bulls likes to point out...Charles Barkley...3 straight times! And wait...do I see Grant Hill???

Show me Pippen on this list...anywhere...and why would Barkley show up 3 times and Pippen not show up at all?

 

[houheffna]

Jordan had great interior defenders throughout his championship tenure. Longley was one of the better low-post defenders and shot-blockers in the league. Rodman could defend the low-post extremely well himself.

Cartwright and Grant were both good shot-blockers and low-post defenders.

You just lost me with the Longley stuff...he was the luckiest shot blocker and low post defender...lucky to be on that Bulls team...he wasn't that good at anything...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

You just lost me with the Longley stuff...he was the luckiest shot blocker and low post defender...lucky to be on that Bulls team...he wasn't that good at anything...

I never said that he was this elite defender or rebounder. But when you can average 2.7 blocks and 10 rebounds per-36 minutes, you aren't terrible. Longley was a role player. The main things he did for the Bulls was defend the rim and give you a short jump-shot or two-step lay-up when the defense didn't keep a body on him.

 

[97Bulls]

Oh...speaking of awards, if you want to talk about a player carrying a team...there was an award for that...the IBM Award...remember that???

"[FONT=verdana, helvetica]The IBM award is described as honoring the player who contributes most to his team's overall success. It began in the 1983-84 season as the Schick Pivotal player award. In 1988 the title was shortened to the Schick award."

Okay, here is the list...and this was strictly computational...not subjective at all...here is the formula...

[/FONT][FONT=verdana, helvetica]
Player pts + reb + ast + stl + bl - pf - to + (team wins X 10) X 250
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Team pts - fga + reb + ast + stl + bl - pf - to

Now here is the list of winners...

[/FONT][FONT=verdana, helvetica][SIZE=-0] Season Player Team 2001-02 Tim Duncan. . . . .San Antonio 2000-01 Shaquille O'Neal. .L.A. Lakers 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal. .L.A. Lakers 1998-99 Dikembe Mutombo. . Atlanta 1997-98 Karl Malone. . . . Utah 1996-97 Grant Hill. . . . .Detroit 1995-96 David Robinson. . .San Antonio 1994-95 David Robinson. . .San Antonio 1993-94 David Robinson. . .San Antonio 1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon. . Houston 1991-92 Dennis Rodman. . . Detroit 1990-91 David Robinson. . .San Antonio 1989-90 David Robinson. . .San Antonio 1988-89 Michael Jordan. . .Chicago 1987-88 Charles Barkley. . Philadelphia 1986-87 Charles Barkley. . Philadelphia 1985-86 Charles Barkley. . Philadelphia 1984-85 Michael Jordan. . .Chicago 1983-84 Magic Johnson. . . L.A. Lakers

[/SIZE][/FONT]Now why in the hell ain't Pippen on this list? I see Magic, Jordan, Rodman, Robinson 5x! Shaq...oh wait Mutombo, Hakeem..and guess who won the award a couple of years after that failure in the Olympics 97 Bulls likes to point out...Charles Barkley...3 straight times! And wait...do I see Grant Hill???

Show me Pippen on this list...anywhere...and why would Barkley show up 3 times and Pippen not show up at all?

Because you can't rate defense statistically, there is no statistic for help defense either. Both were pippens biggest strengths. There is no statistic for running a team. If there was, I'm sure pippen would've won a few of those.

But still what's your point? Are you saying pippen didn't do as well as the other guys did? Cuz that's not true. Other than shaq, none of those award winners won the championship in the year they won this award. And most of them faired no better than pippen some even worse than pippen did as the leaders or their respective teams.

 

[97Bulls]

I never said that he was this elite defender or rebounder. But when you can average 2.7 blocks and 10 rebounds per-36 minutes, you aren't terrible. Longley was a role player. The main things he did for the Bulls was defend the rim and give you a short jump-shot or two-step lay-up when the defense didn't keep a body on him.

I actually agree with your assesment on longley rami. He wasn't as bad a center as a lot of people try to make him out to be. He was solid. And if he got starters minutes, would've avg about 13 and 9 and been a solid defender.

 

[nwfisch]

It still amazes me how just because people say Pippen is good, people get their panties in a bunch. Who knows how good (or bad) Pippen could have been if he didn't play with Jordan?

 

[97Bulls]

It still amazes me how just because people say Pippen is good, people get their panties in a bunch. Who knows how good (or bad) Pippen could have been if he didn't play with Jordan?

Another one of those conjecture arguments. Who know if jordan would've won championships without pippen? Maybe pippen latches on with larry brown and has a team built around him.

 

[nwfisch]

Another one of those conjecture arguments. Who know if jordan would've won championships without pippen? Maybe pippen latches on with larry brown and has a team built around him.

Again, I say Pippen could have been better or worse if he didn't play with Jordan...

 

[97Bulls]

Here's another fun fact for you guys. The bulls in 94 won 67% of their games with a core of;

Armstrong
Myers
Pippen
Grant
Longley
Kukoc as a rookie
Kerr

In 98, the bulls played 38 games without pippen. They won 60% of those games and projected out to about 53 wins had pippen not come back.

Their core players were
Harper
Jordan
Scott burrell (who was solid and definately better than pete myers)
Rodman (who was an upgrade over grant)
Longley (an improved longly)
Kukoc (prime kukoc too)
Kerr

So both jordan and pippen had essentially the same players, jordans were slightly better. Both teams were comming off championships too.

 

[TheStig]

Here's another fun fact for you guys. The bulls in 94 won 67% of their games with a core of;

Armstrong
Myers
Pippen
Grant
Longley
Kukoc as a rookie
Kerr

In 98, the bulls played 38 games without pippen. They won 60% of those games and projected out to about 53 wins had pippen not come back.

Their core players were
Harper
Jordan
Scott burrell (who was solid and definately better than pete myers)
Rodman (who was an upgrade over grant)
Longley (an improved longly)
Kukoc (prime kukoc too)
Kerr

So both jordan and pippen had essentially the same players, jordans were slightly better. Both teams were comming off championships too.

Grant and Armstrong were All stars. Weak ones but all stars none the less. Rodman was much more dominant on the boards but grant was more complete. Armstrong was also much better than Harper or burell. Pippen had the better cast.

 

[TheStig]

Again, I say Pippen could have been better or worse if he didn't play with Jordan...

He could have been better or worse but he certainly wouldn't have been remembered as a champion. There is no way he could have won 6 rings by himself. Would we really look at him the same with only 1 ring, if that?

I think Pippen is a great player but he isn't leading teams to rings imo.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Because you can't rate defense statistically, there is no statistic for help defense either. Both were pippens biggest strengths. There is no statistic for running a team. If there was, I'm sure pippen would've won a few of those.

But still what's your point? Are you saying pippen didn't do as well as the other guys did? Cuz that's not true. Other than shaq, none of those award winners won the championship in the year they won this award. And most of them faired no better than pippen some even worse than pippen did as the leaders or their respective teams.

i do agree that the sort of sabermetrical reference is not perfect...because its difficult to translate help defense, defense overall,IQ,etc. into hard statistical data..because there's too much variability and really a lack of a quantitative source to use

you mention pippen was a good running the team, but in what context does this mean?

Running the team as a point forward of sorts? Sure...he was versatile and had the ability to make plays through running the offense...i wouldnt say he was phenomenal in that regard...but certainly good in correspondence to the position he played

He always ran the show defensively...scottie was arguably one of the best overall defenders in the 90s because of his versatility...hard to make an argument against that

Running the show offensively? Yes and no...he did have a wide range of offensive skills, in other words he did affect the game in alot of ways and was a good rebounder...thing is he was never a dominant offensive player, as i have mentioned before

Even when he was the leader of the team...i wouldnt say he demanded a ton of offensive possessions

and again as i said in my previous you can make the argument, ok well he was relatively efficient with the possessions he did have so he was a pretty good score right? Ya, but there's a reason why he didnt demand as much offensively..its because he wasnt that type of player, never had that type of offensive ability,

he wasnt really clutch nor could he really carry a team offensively..intangibly he was sound..but offensively he just didnt have reliable go to moves...

frankly im not sure exactly what the overall argument is here...

i think scottie was surely a great player in the 90s and easily top 50 overall..but im not sure if he was ever MVP caliber(maybe close)...DPOY also seems like a stretch

also, when scottie was the leader in the mid 90s...he had relatively good support...i hope no one is trying to say he was basically the team..because thats not how it was...he had two all stars(borderline all stars..but i dont think were completely ridiculous picks) as well as kukoc(who im pretty sure knew some english....lol if he didnt he would be in hell with the bulls communication wise)

 

[97Bulls]

Grant and Armstrong were All stars. Weak ones but all stars none the less. Rodman was much more dominant on the boards but grant was more complete. Armstrong was also much better than Harper or burell. Pippen had the better cast.

I guess were just gonna have to have a difference of opinion. Cuz I feel the 98 squad was better than the 94 squad. The only thing armsrtong had over harper was a jumpshot. Rodmans impact was higher than grants. Kukoc had some years under his belt so obviously he was better. Burrell (pippens replacement) was better than myers (jordans replacment).

 

[TheStig]

I guess were just gonna have to have a difference of opinion. Cuz I feel the 98 squad was better than the 94 squad. The only thing armsrtong had over harper was a jumpshot. Rodmans impact was higher than grants. Kukoc had some years under his belt so obviously he was better. Burrell (pippens replacement) was better than myers (jordans replacment).

I only think they were better because of that Pippen guy who came back the second half of the year. I just think having Armstrong and Grant diversifies you more and helps you out.

 

[Glide2keva]

Grant and Armstrong were All stars. Weak ones but all stars none the less. Rodman was much more dominant on the boards but grant was more complete. Armstrong was also much better than Harper or Burell. Pippen had the better cast.

Grant I could see, but BJ? No way he should've been on the All-Star team.

I never bought him as an All-Star.

 

[97Bulls]

I only think they were better because of that Pippen guy who came back the second half of the year. I just think having Armstrong and Grant diversifies you more and helps you out.

No, I think ur missing my point. I'm talking about what jordan and pippen did without the other with what was basically the same team.

And I'm not trying to imply that pippen was better than jordan. Jordan is the greatest ever. But I'm firmly convinced that pippen was a franchise player.

 

[houheffna]

Because you can't rate defense statistically, there is no statistic for help defense either. Both were pippens biggest strengths. There is no statistic for running a team. If there was, I'm sure pippen would've won a few of those.

But still what's your point? Are you saying pippen didn't do as well as the other guys did? Cuz that's not true. Other than shaq, none of those award winners won the championship in the year they won this award. And most of them faired no better than pippen some even worse than pippen did as the leaders or their respective teams.

Then don't use defensive rating, and don't use leading the league in steals as evidence that he was robbed...because, as stated before, had you researched the matter, you would have found that there are a lot of players who had higher, more consistent ratings over their career, who didn't get the award...were they robbed? I don't think so. A lot of players led the league in steals and were not considered...did they win? No. So how was he robbed and all of these other players weren't?