Official Carry-over Argument thread

[97Bulls]

i do agree that the sort of sabermetrical reference is not perfect...because its difficult to translate help defense, defense overall,IQ,etc. into hard statistical data..because there's too much variability and really a lack of a quantitative source to use

you mention pippen was a good running the team, but in what context does this mean?

Running the team as a point forward of sorts? Sure...he was versatile and had the ability to make plays through running the offense...i wouldnt say he was phenomenal in that regard...but certainly good in correspondence to the position he played

He always ran the show defensively...scottie was arguably one of the best overall defenders in the 90s because of his versatility...hard to make an argument against that

Running the show offensively? Yes and no...he did have a wide range of offensive skills, in other words he did affect the game in alot of ways and was a good rebounder...thing is he was never a dominant offensive player, as i have mentioned before

Even when he was the leader of the team...i wouldnt say he demanded a ton of offensive possessions

and again as i said in my previous you can make the argument, ok well he was relatively efficient with the possessions he did have so he was a pretty good score right? Ya, but there's a reason why he didnt demand as much offensively..its because he wasnt that type of player, never had that type of offensive ability,

he wasnt really clutch nor could he really carry a team offensively..intangibly he was sound..but offensively he just didnt have reliable go to moves...

frankly im not sure exactly what the overall argument is here...

i think scottie was surely a great player in the 90s and easily top 50 overall..but im not sure if he was ever MVP caliber(maybe close)...DPOY also seems like a stretch

also, when scottie was the leader in the mid 90s...he had relatively good support...i hope no one is trying to say he was basically the team..because thats not how it was...he had two all stars(borderline all stars..but i dont think were completely ridiculous picks) as well as kukoc(who im pretty sure knew some english....lol if he didnt he would be in hell with the bulls communication wise)

Not that I think it would make much of a difference. But if I were to list games that pippen took over offensively, would it change your mind? Did you read the stuff I posted about pippen and what he did in 95?

 

[97Bulls]

Then don't use defensive rating, and don't use leading the league in steals as evidence that he was robbed...because, as stated before, had you researched the matter, you would have found that there are a lot of players who had higher, more consistent ratings over their career, who didn't get the award...were they robbed? I don't think so. A lot of players led the league in steals and were not considered...did they win? No. So how was he robbed and all of these other players weren't?

I said you could throw out defensive rating. He still should've won. The 95 bulls won games with their defense. They weren't a great offensive team. Pippen was the heart and soul of that defense. The statistical info just solidifies my opinion.

This is the article I was referring to when I. Mentioned kukoc and the language problem he had. I believe it was in the 5th paragraph

Melissa Isaacson: At age 42 Toni Kukoc is a full-time parent and scratch golfer and loving life after NBA career - ESPN Chicago

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Not that I think it would make much of a difference. But if I were to list games that pippen took over offensively, would it change your mind? Did you read the stuff I posted about pippen and what he did in 95?

i guess i would like to see some hard data,and no i didnt necessarily see what you said about pippen in 95...wouldnt mind if you reiterated

 

[houheffna]

I said you could throw out defensive rating. He still should've won. The 95 bulls won games with their defense. They weren't a great offensive team. Pippen was the heart and soul of that defense. The statistical info just solidifies my opinion.

This is the article I was referring to when I. Mentioned kukoc and the language problem he had. I believe it was in the 5th paragraph

Melissa Isaacson: At age 42 Toni Kukoc is a full-time parent and scratch golfer and loving life after NBA career - ESPN Chicago

Again, subjective talk...he carried his team defensively? So did Mutombo. So did Olajuwon for a decade. As I said, perimeter players are overlooked for post defenders all the time. Pippen wasn't robbed of anything. He just didn't win that year.

Using Kukoc the way you did was laughable...I guess Magic should have won MVP in 1991 because he took a Serb that barely knew English to the finals? Again, that stuff is laughable...you are reaching...

By the way, look at Hakeem's rankings...and tell me why he didn't win 5 or 6 DPOYs....

 

[97Bulls]

Again, subjective talk...he carried his team defensively? So did Mutombo. So did Olajuwon for a decade. As I said, perimeter players are overlooked for post defenders all the time. Pippen wasn't robbed of anything. He just didn't win that year.

Using Kukoc the way you did was laughable...I guess Magic should have won MVP in 1991 because he took a Serb that barely knew English to the finals? Again, that stuff is laughable...you are reaching...

By the way, look at Hakeem's rankings...and tell me why he didn't win 5 or 6 DPOYs....

Magic shouldn't have won the mvp cuz he still had a great team. He still had worthy, he still had scott, perkins took jabbars place. Which was nothing like myers taking jordans. And divac spoke good english and wasn't a rookie. There was a huge difference.

And yes mutombo carried his team defensively, but statistically the 95 nuggets weren't very good defensively. The bulls were better. And they were better cuz of pippen. The bulls without pippen weren't great defenders. The nuggets with mutombo weren't great defensively so how much impact could he have had defensively?

And I don't know how many dpoys olajuwan should've won. I would have to look. How many do you think he should've won?

 

[97Bulls]

i guess i would like to see some hard data,and no i didnt necessarily see what you said about pippen in 95...wouldnt mind if you reiterated

Ok.... first, ill respond to your claim that pippen didn't take over games offensively

In the 91 finals game 5, the lakers were facing elimination. They were up by about 5 points in the 3rd quarter when pippen took over and scored 13 pts (including 8 straight) to give the bulls the lead. They never looked back and pippen finished with 32 pts, 13 rbds, and 5 steals.

In the 92 finals, the blazers faced elimination, they were up by 15 pts in the fourth quarter. Phil jackson sat jordan and the starters down and left pippen on the floor with the reserves. Pippen scored 11 pts, had 3 assists, forced drexler into 3 TOs and shut him down. The bulls got back into the game and eventually won the game. As well as the championship.

In 91 vs the bulls nemisis the detroit pistons game 3, a game that aired a few nights ago, it was pippen that hit shot after big shot and finished with 26 pts that kept the bulls ahead of the pistons. Jordan did finish with 32 I believe, but he at one point was 4 for 12. Pippen shot 60%. And that was the deciding game. The bulls blew them out in game 4. The pistons obviously gave up.

These were just a few of pippens clutch big games that I listed. I could obviously list more, but these were what id call big games due to the situation.

A while back I posted pippens stats in every elimination game the bulls were in since 91. From the first round to the championship. Pippen offensive output was routinely in the mid to high 20s.

As far as my stance on why I feel pippen deserved the dpoy in 95. Ill try to keep it simple and compare his season defensively to mutombos

Pippen was the heart and soul of the number 2 ranked defense.
Mutombos nuggets were ranked 14th

Pippen led the league in steals
Mutombo in blocks but pippen also avg a block a game.

The bulls had a better record than the nuggets too.

Both obviously were voted on to the all nba 1st team. But out of the 5, pippen got the most votes. Why is more impressive than the dpoy voting? Because the dpoy is voted by the media, the all-nba team is voted on by the coaches.

And notice I didn't include the fact that pippen led the league in defensive rating. I did this for heff.

 

[houheffna]

Magic shouldn't have won the mvp cuz he still had a great team. He still had worthy, he still had scott, perkins took jabbars place. Which was nothing like myers taking jordans. And divac spoke good english and wasn't a rookie. There was a huge difference.

And yes mutombo carried his team defensively, but statistically the 95 nuggets weren't very good defensively. The bulls were better. And they were better cuz of pippen. The bulls without pippen weren't great defenders. The nuggets with mutombo weren't great defensively so how much impact could he have had defensively?

And I don't know how many dpoys olajuwan should've won. I would have to look. How many do you think he should've won?

Based on your criteria, as many as I stated...which is my point...from the late 1980's to the mid 1990's, the Rockets went all but I beileve 1 year (the year Cartwright broke Hakeem's eye socket I believe) being top 5 in the league in defense.

Divac stated in the ESPN documentary about Petrovic that he didn't know English well, he couldn't order food. Magic Johnson discussed it in the same documentary.



"He was also one of the first European players to have an impact in the league. Under the mentorship of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Magic Johnson, he improved his play and adapted to the American style of the game. Despite the fact that he didn't speak any English, he quickly became popular among the teammates and the public for his charm and joviality"

Vlade Divac - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So now, if you take an overachieving team to the finals with a good team...you don't deserve MVP. But if you take an overachieving team with the same core without Jordan to the second round of the playoffs, you are overlooked for MVP in 1994 and if your stalwart defense leads your team to a mediocre record in 1995, you are robbed of DPOY?

My God that's bad reasoning...you act like Divac came over from Serbia making rap CD's...lol. Divac, Petrovic were first, then Kukoc and Dino Radja...you laud Pippen for being Kukoc's English teacher...sounds like a corny feel-good movie, but far from reality.

And by the way....when does Phil Jackson get any credit for ANY modicum of success the Bulls had during that time? Only one of the greatest coaches in organized sports...good grief.

 

[houheffna]

Ok.... first, ill respond to your claim that pippen didn't take over games offensively

In the 91 finals game 5, the lakers were facing elimination. They were up by about 5 points in the 3rd quarter when pippen took over and scored 13 pts (including 8 straight) to give the bulls the lead. They never looked back and pippen finished with 32 pts, 13 rbds, and 5 steals.

In the 92 finals, the blazers faced elimination, they were up by 15 pts in the fourth quarter. Phil jackson sat jordan and the starters down and left pippen on the floor with the reserves. Pippen scored 11 pts, had 3 assists, forced drexler into 3 TOs and shut him down. The bulls got back into the game and eventually won the game. As well as the championship.

In 91 vs the bulls nemisis the detroit pistons game 3, a game that aired a few nights ago, it was pippen that hit shot after big shot and finished with 26 pts that kept the bulls ahead of the pistons. Jordan did finish with 32 I believe, but he at one point was 4 for 12. Pippen shot 60%. And that was the deciding game. The bulls blew them out in game 4. The pistons obviously gave up.

These were just a few of pippens clutch big games that I listed. I could obviously list more, but these were what id call big games due to the situation.

A while back I posted pippens stats in every elimination game the bulls were in since 91. From the first round to the championship. Pippen offensive output was routinely in the mid to high 20s.

As far as my stance on why I feel pippen deserved the dpoy in 95. Ill try to keep it simple and compare his season defensively to mutombos

Pippen was the heart and soul of the number 2 ranked defense.
Mutombos nuggets were ranked 14th

Pippen led the league in steals
Mutombo in blocks but pippen also avg a block a game.

The bulls had a better record than the nuggets too.

Both obviously were voted on to the all nba 1st team. But out of the 5, pippen got the most votes. Why is more impressive than the dpoy voting? Because the dpoy is voted by the media, the all-nba team is voted on by the coaches.

And notice I didn't include the fact that pippen led the league in defensive rating. I did this for heff.

Pippen had more votes because he had less competition at the position. From the time Wilkins begin to age to the beginning of the rise of Grant Hill, there was nobody there to compete against Pippen at that position, the center position had all time great defensive players at the time. Big difference...

As far as Pippen's performance in the clutch...I gave you the definition of clutch before...I guess you just want to ignore it. But third quarter performances are not considered clutch offensive performances. Kukoc and Jordan had both more memorable and more of a volume of clutch performances. Kukoc in game 3 of against the Knicks in 1993 was clutch...Phil trusted Kukoc in those situations more than he trusted Pippen...matter of fact, Pippen was abysmal in that series against the Knicks in clutch situations...he folded game after game. Kukoc and B.J. had better clutch performances than Pippen did. Pippen could do nothing but watch as the Knicks constantly came back from fourth quarter deficits.

 

[97Bulls]

Based on your criteria, as many as I stated...which is my point...from the late 1980's to the mid 1990's, the Rockets went all but I beileve 1 year (the year Cartwright broke Hakeem's eye socket I believe) being top 5 in the league in defense.

Divac stated in the ESPN documentary about Petrovic that he didn't know English well, he couldn't order food. Magic Johnson discussed it in the same documentary.



"He was also one of the first European players to have an impact in the league. Under the mentorship of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Magic Johnson, he improved his play and adapted to the American style of the game. Despite the fact that he didn't speak any English, he quickly became popular among the teammates and the public for his charm and joviality"

Vlade Divac - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So now, if you take an overachieving team to the finals with a good team...you don't deserve MVP. But if you take an overachieving team with the same core without Jordan to the second round of the playoffs, you are overlooked for MVP in 1994 and if your stalwart defense leads your team to a mediocre record in 1995, you are robbed of DPOY?

My God that's bad reasoning...you act like Divac came over from Serbia making rap CD's...lol. Divac, Petrovic were first, then Kukoc and Dino Radja...you laud Pippen for being Kukoc's English teacher...sounds like a corny feel-good movie, but far from reality.

And by the way....when does Phil Jackson get any credit for ANY modicum of success the Bulls had during that time? Only one of the greatest coaches in organized sports...good grief.

Divac was probably the 5th best player on the lakers behind magic, worthy, perkins, and scott. 6th if you count ac green. Kukoc was the third best player on the bulls in 94. And like I said, divac had a year under his belt in 91. Kukoc was a rookie. Its this kind if reasoning that leads me to question your position as a bulls fan. You just don't see things the way a fan of a team does.d

And I don't feel the lakers over-achieved like the bulls. In fact, they underachieved. They won 58 games after winning 63 the year before. And this was after upgrading their center position by replacing jabaar with sam perkins

As far as phil jackson....I feel he was robbed of the coach of the year award. He definately deserved it.

 

[97Bulls]

Pippen had more votes because he had less competition at the position. From the time Wilkins begin to age to the beginning of the rise of Grant Hill, there was nobody there to compete against Pippen at that position, the center position had all time great defensive players at the time. Big difference...

As far as Pippen's performance in the clutch...I gave you the definition of clutch before...I guess you just want to ignore it. But third quarter performances are not considered clutch offensive performances. Kukoc and Jordan had both more memorable and more of a volume of clutch performances. Kukoc in game 3 of against the Knicks in 1993 was clutch...Phil trusted Kukoc in those situations more than he trusted Pippen...matter of fact, Pippen was abysmal in that series against the Knicks in clutch situations...he folded game after game. Kukoc and B.J. had better clutch performances than Pippen did. Pippen could do nothing but watch as the Knicks constantly came back from fourth quarter deficits.

If I remember correct, you referred to an article from some guy that gave his definition for what clutch is. Besides, code said pippen couldn't take over games. That's what I was responding to. And the knicks didn't win cuz pippen folded in the clutch. The knicks won cuz they were the better team. Implying that bj armstrong and kukoc hit "clutch" shots is an out and out lie.

 

[Glide2keva]

If I remember correct, you referred to an article from some guy that gave his definition for what clutch is. Besides, code said pippen couldn't take over games. That's what I was responding to. And the knicks didn't win cuz pippen folded in the clutch. The knicks won cuz they were the better team. Implying that bj armstrong and kukoc hit "clutch" shots is an out and out lie.

Pay that no mind. People seem to have an agenda to discredit Pippen at every given opportunity.

 

[97Bulls]

Pay that no mind. People seem to have an agenda to discredit Pippen at every given opportunity.

Yep. Then he wonders why I question his allegiance.

I noticed heff said that jackson went with kukoc for that last shot cuz he had no faith in pippen. That couldn't be further from the truth. Think about the situation. There 1.8 seconds on the clock. Meaning that more than likely your gonna need a jumpshot to win. Kukoc was a better jumpshooter than pippen and he was 6"11 so he obviously would be able to shoot over whoever was guarding him. That's why he went with kukoc. It wasn't cuz he didn't have faith in pippen.

 

[Glide2keva]

Yep. Then he wonders why I question his allegiance.

You're wrong to question that.

I noticed heff said that Jackson went with Kukoc for that last shot cuz he had no faith in Pippen.

He said that? Wow. But what do you expect from him, he knows everything.

That couldn't be further from the truth.

You're right, I can say that because I was there. He wasn't.

Think about the situation. There are 1.8 seconds on the clock, meaning that more than likely you're gonna need a jump-shot to win. Kukoc was a better jump-shooter than Pippen and he was 6"11, so he obviously would be able to shoot over whoever was guarding him. That's why he went with Kukoc. It wasn't cuz he didn't have faith in Pippen.

The reason he went with Kukoc was because NY would be expecting the ball to go to Pippen and would most likely have had him bottled up. So Jackson drew up a play where Scottie would be a decoy and Kukoc would get the shot. Pippen didn't want to do it because he felt disrespected by having gotten them this far and when it's time to nail the game winner, he goes with the new guy.

Scottie the biggest mistake of his career and didn't go back in the game and pouted on the bench.

Kukoc hits the game winner. I was on the other side of the stanchion and saw it was in as soon as it left his hand. I feel honored because I'm in that highlight.

 

[houheffna]

If I remember correct, you referred to an article from some guy that gave his definition for what clutch is. Besides, code said pippen couldn't take over games. That's what I was responding to. And the knicks didn't win cuz pippen folded in the clutch. The knicks won cuz they were the better team. Implying that bj armstrong and kukoc hit "clutch" shots is an out and out lie.

No, I referred to 82games.com...

What do you call the shot Kukoc hit in game 3, B.J. in game 5??? Are you kidding me?

 

[houheffna]

Yep. Then he wonders why I question his allegiance.

I noticed heff said that jackson went with kukoc for that last shot cuz he had no faith in pippen. That couldn't be further from the truth. Think about the situation. There 1.8 seconds on the clock. Meaning that more than likely your gonna need a jumpshot to win. Kukoc was a better jumpshooter than pippen and he was 6"11 so he obviously would be able to shoot over whoever was guarding him. That's why he went with kukoc. It wasn't cuz he didn't have faith in pippen.

Your questioning my allegiance if hilarious...I question your fandom, judgement and your damn eyesight. i have watched you put down player after player for Pippen...even Jordan! Did you not say at one point that Jordan wasn't a winner until Pippen showed up? You had to recant that b.s....

Pippen missed shot after shot in the fourth quarter and if I remember correctly, couldn't get a shot off before Patrick Ewing hit the shot to tie the game. Just as in the first two games, Kukoc got the shot because he had proven that he could hit the shot. As far as your story, Pippen didn't seem to buy that did he?

 

[houheffna]

You're wrong to question that.

He said that? Wow. But what do you expect from him, he knows everything.

You're right, I can say that because I was there. He wasn't.



The reason he went with Kukoc was because NY would be expecting the ball to go to Pippen and would most likely have had him bottled up. So Jackson drew up a play where Scottie would be a decoy and Kukoc would get the shot. Pippen didn't want to do it because he felt disrespected by having gotten them this far and when it's time to nail the game winner, he goes with the new guy.

Scottie the biggest mistake of his career and didn't go back in the game and pouted on the bench.

Kukoc hits the game winner. I was on the other side of the stanchion and saw it was in as soon as it left his hand. I feel honored because I'm in that highlight.

And absolutely nobody gives a shit about you being there...nobody.

And because you were there with 20000 other people, you know what PJ was thinking? Lol...

 

[scottiepippen1994]

When is HH going to post about somthing other than his disturbing obsessed hate for the second best Bull in history????
I mean the blah blah blah will never end.
Just because he looks like an extremely large round basketball in his avatar doesn't mean he knows the game like he bullies everyone to believe.
Maybe he feels his avatar is intimidating, but I think its just a front.
The guy in reality is probabely white, real short and only weighs 100 pounds.

The way he rambles on about how awful Pippen was and how he thinks Pippen was no impact is passed getting old.
Its just not cute anymore.
Does this guy have a poster of Pippen hanging in his room that he throws darts at or what????

 

[houheffna]

When is HH going to post about somhing other than his disturbing obsessed hate for the second best Bull in history????
I mean the blah blah blah will never end.
Just because he looks like an extremely large round basketball in his avatar doesn't mean he knows the game like he bullies everyone to believe.
Maybe he feels his avatar is intimidating, but I think its just a front.
The guy in reality is probabely white, real short and only weighs 100 pounds.

And you, in reality, are an idiot...

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Ok.... first, ill respond to your claim that pippen didn't take over games offensively

In the 91 finals game 5, the lakers were facing elimination. They were up by about 5 points in the 3rd quarter when pippen took over and scored 13 pts (including 8 straight) to give the bulls the lead. They never looked back and pippen finished with 32 pts, 13 rbds, and 5 steals.

In the 92 finals, the blazers faced elimination, they were up by 15 pts in the fourth quarter. Phil jackson sat jordan and the starters down and left pippen on the floor with the reserves. Pippen scored 11 pts, had 3 assists, forced drexler into 3 TOs and shut him down. The bulls got back into the game and eventually won the game. As well as the championship.

In 91 vs the bulls nemisis the detroit pistons game 3, a game that aired a few nights ago, it was pippen that hit shot after big shot and finished with 26 pts that kept the bulls ahead of the pistons. Jordan did finish with 32 I believe, but he at one point was 4 for 12. Pippen shot 60%. And that was the deciding game. The bulls blew them out in game 4. The pistons obviously gave up.

These were just a few of pippens clutch big games that I listed. I could obviously list more, but these were what id call big games due to the situation.

A while back I posted pippens stats in every elimination game the bulls were in since 91. From the first round to the championship. Pippen offensive output was routinely in the mid to high 20s.

As far as my stance on why I feel pippen deserved the dpoy in 95. Ill try to keep it simple and compare his season defensively to mutombos

Pippen was the heart and soul of the number 2 ranked defense.
Mutombos nuggets were ranked 14th

Pippen led the league in steals
Mutombo in blocks but pippen also avg a block a game.

The bulls had a better record than the nuggets too.

Both obviously were voted on to the all nba 1st team. But out of the 5, pippen got the most votes. Why is more impressive than the dpoy voting? Because the dpoy is voted by the media, the all-nba team is voted on by the coaches.

And notice I didn't include the fact that pippen led the league in defensive rating. I did this for heff.

A. I dont think mutombo deserved DPOY that year...although i would say that the nuggets didnt have alot of great defensive options around mutombo..who was a monster in the post defensively then

B. You list some good examples, but relatively few...a couple of games in the playoffs(this includes elimination games) is not nearly enough for me to think that Pippen is overall a dominant offensive player

i concede he may be able to,in some occasions, lead the offense...but that doesnt mean he was reliable in leading the offense on a consistent basis

his offensive production actually went down in playoffs..in fact in 95 he only averaged 18 PPG in the playoffs

look, im not saying pippen was terrible on offense..but in contrast, he was certainly not a juggernaut...

again, there's a reason he didnt demand the amount of possessions that some of the better offensive players did/do...because that was not his game...

and look, i dont hate pippen at all..this has nothing to do with emotional opinion.. and i think pippen was a fantastic player probably top 30-40..but i dont think he was the DPOY in 95(i think its actually close but i always feel that the preference should be to the guys in the low post that change the game for penetrators and contain bigs..and in the 90s bigs ruled so having a great shot blocker and overall good post defender is crucial)

 

[scottiepippen1994]

And you, in reality, are an idiot...

Whatever you say man.
I think its officially time for you to change your screenname from HueHefna to Hue Hollins..