Official Carry-over Argument thread

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I could make a strong case for pippen over everyone on your list except jordan, wilt, duncan, shaq, russel, olajuwan, malone, and james if he starts to win multiple championships.

The rest can be argued for both sides.

Having a championship isn't determined by how good you are as a player as much as it is by how good your team is around you.

Kobe Bryant absolutely SMOKES Scottie Pippen. The Big O, too. And you leave out Kareem???

LeBron James is way better than Pippen ever dreamt of being.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And anyone who thinks Pippen is better than Larry Bird is living in a dream world made up of cotton candy, fairies, and unicorns.

 

[Glide2keva]

Not true. You can't say definitely to that one either. Payton was a dominant defender. He defended the PG position as well or better than anyone. He also guarded the elite 2 guards. He was a MUCH better passer and a better scorer than Pippen.

Payton was a dominant defender in the West where they played no defense anyway. So his "defense" was always over-hyped to me.

I'd still put Pippen over him and I can say he definitely goes over Payton. Like I said, Payton was overrated.

 

[Glide2keva]

I don't think anyone said Pippen was better than Bird, that's ridiculous.

But, Pippen is better than you guys seem to be willing to give him credit for.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Payton was a dominant defender in the West where they played no defense anyway. So his "defense" was always over-hyped to me.

I'd still put Pippen over him and I can say he definitely goes over Payton. Like I said, Payton was overrated.

That is horrible reasoning... Payton was one of the toughest defenders Michael Jordan ever faced. He made most of the players look like hell when he was matched up against them. Even as an older player, Gilbert Arenas was absolutely TERRIFIED of this guy. He claimed he was afraid of GP dropping 50 on him at will if he wasn't willing to pass the ball.

I think Pippen is overrated by you. And I think that Payton is underrated by you.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I don't think anyone said Pippen was better than Bird, that's ridiculous.

But, Pippen is better than you guys seem to be willing to give him credit for.

I'm willing to give Pippen plenty of credit. But to see people leaving out Kobe's and Bird's name in a list of players definitely better than him... and to see how you think that Pippen was easily better than GP? That is outrageous.

 

[97Bulls]

Having a championship isn't determined by how good you are as a player as much as it is by how good your team is around you.

Kobe Bryant absolutely SMOKES Scottie Pippen. The Big O, too. And you leave out Kareem???

LeBron James is way better than Pippen ever dreamt of being.

I agree about the championships. I'm trying to say that if james continues to come up short in big games like he has in the two championships he's been in, then its gonna drastically hurt his rankings. But I will say this. Put pippen in james place this past year and they destroy dallas.

I totally forgot about kareem. Him too.

As far as kobe goes, I really feel he's a little overrated. He's a classic case of just being on the best team in the league. Look at what he did the year shaq left. That team sucked major balls. And they weren't really as bad as their record states talent-wise. Sure kobe missed 14 games but pippen missed 10.

I could go on and on about kobe being overrated but I'm sure ill be for not. Cuz facts will never trump opinions for some people.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I agree about the championships. I'm trying to say that if james continues to come up short in big games like he has in the two championships he's been in, then its gonna drastically hurt his rankings. But I will say this. Put pippen in james place this past year and they destroy dallas.

I totally forgot about kareem. Him too.

As far as kobe goes, I really feel he's a little overrated. He's a classic case of just being on the best team in the league. Look at what he did the year shaq left. That team sucked major balls. And they weren't really as bad as their record states talent-wise. Sure kobe missed 14 games but pippen missed 10.

I could go on and on about kobe being overrated but I'm sure ill be for not. Cuz facts will never trump opinions for some people.

Kobe Bryant isn't all that overrated except by moron Laker fans. The reason his team sucked after Shaq left was because GP and Malone and Fisher also left. The team was left with Odom, Shush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton... that is a HORRIBLE supporting cast. And Kobe took that team to the playoffs with Phil Jackson and actually took Phoenix to 7 games when they had no business doing so.

I know that they missed the playoffs right after all of those players left the first year... but that supporting cast was terrible and they had a new coach. You aren't going to be a very good team when that happens. I don't care if Jordan is your best player.

And Pippen wouldn't have really helped Miami beat Dallas as a replacement over LeBron James. James did a great job on defense and passed the ball better than Scottie could have.

 

[DCguy]

Having a championship isn't determined by how good you are as a player as much as it is by how good your team is around you.

Kobe Bryant absolutely SMOKES Scottie Pippen. The Big O, too. And you leave out Kareem???

LeBron James is way better than Pippen ever dreamt of being.

Way better in a freak athlete sense. He is a better passer and is way better at attacking the rim compared to Scottie. They are both off and on shooters and can both rebound well if they set out to. Scottie is a better defender, has a better feel for the game, has more basketball IQ, and just has the intangibles that LeBron does not have. People seem to confuse LeBron's supreme athletic ability with actual fundamentals of the game. Scottie to me is the more fundamentally sound player between the two.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Way better in a freak athlete sense. He is a better passer and is way better at attacking the rim compared to Scottie. They are both off and on shooters and can both rebound well if they set out to. Scottie is a better defender, has a better feel for the game, has more basketball IQ, and just has the intangibles that LeBron does not have. People seem to confuse LeBron's supreme athletic ability with actual fundamentals of the game. Scottie to me is the more fundamentally sound player between the two.

Being a more well-rounded player is a far cry from saying that he is in the ballpark of being as good overall of a player as LeBron James.

LeBron is not as good of a defender as Pippen, but is also an elite defender in his own right. And that is without hand-checking. He is just as good of a transition defender than Pippen (if not better). He is a better three-point shooter than Pippen. He has better ball-handling ability than Pippen. He can guard strong post up players as well or better than Pippen. His court-vision and passing puts Pippen's to shame.

Pippen has a post-up game and LeBron doesn't. That is really the only thing that makes him more well-rounded than LeBron.

 

[DCguy]

Being a more well-rounded player is a far cry from saying that he is in the ballpark of being as good overall of a player as LeBron James.

LeBron is not as good of a defender as Pippen, but is also an elite defender in his own right. And that is without hand-checking. He is just as good of a transition defender than Pippen (if not better). He is a better three-point shooter than Pippen. He has better ball-handling ability than Pippen. He can guard strong post up players as well or better than Pippen. His court-vision and passing puts Pippen's to shame.

Pippen has a post-up game and LeBron doesn't. That is really the only thing that makes him more well-rounded than LeBron.

Being well rounded means you have an all around game is which can also be said that he has an overall game that can be described. LeBron is a good passer and a great rim attacker. He is a layup machine at best.

LeBron got the passing ability, and elite driving ability. But the 3point shooting by both of them are hit and miss, LeBron has improved his defense but he is not on Pippen's level in any aspect, but close to it. Dribbling ability, maybe better, but LeBron ain't breaking no ankles no more than Pippen is.

 

[Glide2keva]

That is horrible reasoning... Payton was one of the toughest defenders Michael Jordan ever faced. He made most of the players look like hell when he was matched up against them. Even as an older player, Gilbert Arenas was absolutely TERRIFIED of this guy. He claimed he was afraid of GP dropping 50 on him at will if he wasn't willing to pass the ball.

I think Pippen is overrated by you. And I think that Payton is underrated by you.

Riiight.

Sounds like the typical, hype other players, down Bulls players not named Jordan theme that is starting to dominate these forums.

I mean damn, I know Pippen was the #2 man on the team, but you guys act like he did nothing of any significance while he played, other than playing with Jordan.

It seems like I'm just rating Pippen, while you and others of your ilk are dismissing him as nothing more than a role player that could be easily replaced. Wait, someone these forums said that exact same thing. I think it was you Rami.

Am I wrong?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Riiight.

Sounds like the typical, hype other players, down Bulls players not named Jordan theme that is starting to dominate these forums.

I mean damn, I know Pippen was the #2 man on the team, but you guys act like he did nothing of any significance while he played, other than playing with Jordan.

It seems like I'm just rating Pippen, while you and others of your ilk are dismissing him as nothing more than a role player that could be easily replaced. Wait, someone these forums said that exact same thing. I think it was you Rami.

Am I wrong?

What?!?!

I have already said that Pippen was one of the better players in NBA history. How the hell is that acting as if he was just a role player?? You are straight-up being deceptive.

I could make the case that saying something like 'Rose had the best season of any Bulls' player since Jordan in 1988' is a completely terrible assessment and an insult to the greatness of Michael Jordan.

Fact is... all other things the same... if the Bulls pass up Jordan in the 1984 draft... Pippen has ZERO championships. And the Bulls have ZERO as a team.

And I never said Pippen could easily be replaced. That is straight-up lying. I said that a player like Grant Hill or Kendall Gill in Pippen's place would have also resulted in multiple titles. Get that bullshit out of here.

 

[Glide2keva]

I'm willing to give Pippen plenty of credit. But to see people leaving out Kobe's and Bird's name in a list of players definitely better than him. And to see how you think that Pippen was easily better than GP? That is outrageous.

I'm entitled to my own opinion. I didn't see the big hooplah about Payton. They played no defense in the West, so anyone playing any level of defense is going to look like an all world defender. The true defenders were in the East and Payton's numbers were inflated due to the West playing an up and down pace as compared to the slower, more defense oriented East.

I didn't see his vaunted Defense when he got to Milwaukee and he definitely wasn't anything special in Miami.

The only thing I saw him do was throw alley-oops to Kemp and the occasional highlight.

Another overrated player.

 

[Glide2keva]

I agree about the championships. I'm trying to say that if james continues to come up short in big games like he has in the two championships he's been in, then its gonna drastically hurt his rankings. But I will say this. Put pippen in james place this past year and they destroy dallas.

I totally forgot about kareem. Him too.

As far as kobe goes, I really feel he's a little overrated. He's a classic case of just being on the best team in the league. Look at what he did the year shaq left. That team sucked major balls. And they weren't really as bad as their record states talent-wise. Sure kobe missed 14 games but pippen missed 10.

I could go on and on about kobe being overrated but I'm sure ill be for not. Cuz facts will never trump opinions for some people.

You damn right Kobe is and always was overrated.

He's very good, but not as great as he's made out to be.

 

[Glide2keva]

Kobe Bryant isn't all that overrated except by moron Laker fans. The reason his team sucked after Shaq left was because GP and Malone and Fisher also left. The team was left with Odom, Shush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton... that is a HORRIBLE supporting cast. And Kobe took that team to the playoffs with Phil Jackson and actually took Phoenix to 7 games when they had no business doing so.

I know that they missed the playoffs right after all of those players left the first year... but that supporting cast was terrible and they had a new coach. You aren't going to be a very good team when that happens. I don't care if Jordan is your best player.

And Pippen wouldn't have really helped Miami beat Dallas as a replacement over LeBron James. James did a great job on defense and passed the ball better than Scottie could have.

Difference is, Scottie would done whatever it took to close those games out, while lebronze shied away and deferred.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Being well rounded means you have an all around game is which can also be said that he has an overall game that can be described. LeBron is a good passer and a great rim attacker. He is a layup machine at best.

LeBron got the passing ability, and elite driving ability. But the 3point shooting by both of them are hit and miss, LeBron has improved his defense but he is not on Pippen's level in any aspect, but close to it. Dribbling ability, maybe better, but LeBron ain't breaking no ankles no more than Pippen is.

LeBron James is definitely a better athlete than Pippen and almost every skill (shooting, passing, rebounding, ball-handling, finishing ability) is better. The reason Pippen was a better defender than James is because of his length advantage.

The offense is not even debatable. Despite the lack-of post-up game (Pip's post-up game was far from elite either), LeBron James is miles ahead of Pip scoring. Passing too.

Pippen has the advantage on defense but not by much at all.

 

[Glide2keva]

Way better in a freak athlete sense. He is a better passer and is way better at attacking the rim compared to Scottie. They are both off and on shooters and can both rebound well if they set out to. Scottie is a better defender, has a better feel for the game, has more basketball IQ, and just has the intangibles that LeBron does not have. People seem to confuse LeBron's supreme athletic ability with actual fundamentals of the game. Scottie to me is the more fundamentally sound player between the two.

Could you be any more right than you already are?

This hits the nail right on the head.

 

[Glide2keva]

Being a more well-rounded player is a far cry from saying that he is in the ballpark of being as good overall of a player as LeBron James.

LeBron is not as good of a defender as Pippen, but is also an elite defender in his own right. And that is without hand-checking. He is just as good of a transition defender than Pippen (if not better). He is a better three-point shooter than Pippen. He has better ball-handling ability than Pippen. He can guard strong post up players as well or better than Pippen. His court-vision and passing puts Pippen's to shame.

Pippen has a post-up game and LeBron doesn't. That is really the only thing that makes him more well-rounded than LeBron.

This is absolutely ludicrous.

Wow, talk about overrated.

you sound like you got lebron posters on your wall with all of this garbage.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Difference is, Scottie would done whatever it took to close those games out, while lebronze shied away and deferred.

Bullshit. I'd take LeBron James in a clutch offensive situation ten times over before I took Scottie.

The best thing Pippen could do to close games out offensively as pass to Jordan. Or stay on the bench and let Kukoc shoot. Hell, Kukoc was a MUCH more clutch scorer than Pippen was. And I'm not only referring to the '94 Knicks game. I'm talking about every close-game situation where Jordan was looking to pass the ball. The first guy who would get it was Kukoc. The most shining example of that is Game 5 of the 1998 Finals against Utah where Kukoc just took over and kept the Bulls in the game.