Official Offseason Thread - CUBS edition

[nwfisch]

1922 WS Ruth had an OPS of 422.

He should be removed from the hall of fame.

And hell that WS was 5 games.

It's not like I'm picking on Ramirez when he has a great playoff track record and multiple WS rings. Half his playoff career, he disappeared when needed the most.

 

[dabynsky]

It's not like I'm picking on Ramirez when he has a great playoff track record and multiple WS rings. Half his playoff career, he disappeared when needed the most.

Okay do you think hitting in the playoffs is an ability of position players?

And your argument really supports my position. If Ramirez was on a team that was regularly in the postseason he would have more chances to have played well in the playoffs compared to being on the Pirates and Cubs were he has less than 20 career postseason games.

 

[poodski]

Cubs Shopping Spree ( Will They Spend/Will They Not ?) Thread

Ugh, you really think that if Ramirez tried harder or something that he could have done better?

Absolutely.

He just didn't care.

 

[nwfisch]

Okay do you think hitting in the playoffs is an ability of position players?

And your argument really supports my position. If Ramirez was on a team that was regularly in the postseason he would have more chances to have played well in the playoffs compared to being on the Pirates and Cubs were he has less than 20 career postseason games.

Yes, hitters should be able to control whether or not they hit.

Ramirez lost control, which is why he struggled.

We can play what if til the cows come home, but Rammy's track record shows that he faltered when needed the most. It's not my fault Rammy doesn't have a larger sample size and more success when needed the most.

 

[dabynsky]

Yes, hitters should be able to control whether or not they hit.

Ramirez lost control, which is why he struggled.

We can play what if til the cows come home, but Rammy's track record shows that he faltered when needed the most. It's not my fault Rammy doesn't have a larger sample size and more success when needed the most.

Oaky so it is an ability in your opinion.

Did Barry Bonds suddenly gain this ability in 2002 when he didn't have at any point prior? ARod is another example of a guy with a lot of poor postseason results, and then had a few decent postseasons. Ramirez has had 18 postseason games in his career. He was terrible in 6 of them, and no one is disputing that. The only question is what does mean about his future worth. Do you really think that because he played in those 6 games that means he is more likely to play badly in future postseason games?

 

[nwfisch]

Oaky so it is an ability in your opinion.

Did Barry Bonds suddenly gain this ability in 2002 when he didn't have at any point prior? ARod is another example of a guy with a lot of poor postseason results, and then had a few decent postseasons. Ramirez has had 18 postseason games in his career. He was terrible in 6 of them, and no one is disputing that. The only question is what does mean about his future worth. Do you really think that because he played in those 6 games that means he is more likely to play badly in future postseason games?

You made it sound like postseason games were less important than the games that got you there.

Barry Bonds gained things called steroids.

Like I said, I don't know about the future, but I'd rather let Rammy go on somewhere else.

 

[dabynsky]

You made it sound like postseason games were less important than the games that got you there.

Barry Bonds gained things called steroids.

Like I said, I don't know about the future, but I'd rather let Rammy go on somewhere else.

Look I think we are saying the same things here, but are putting the focus on different aspects. All baseball players go hot and cold throughout a season. Even Babe Ruth had a bad postseason as poodski pointed out. The point I've been making is that it is unforunate that Ramirez played poorly in those 6 games. Him playing better would have definitely have helped them to play more than 6 games those 2 years. However, what I dispute is that somehow Ramirez could flip a switch and not slump those 6 games. As you pointed out with Babe Ruth he had a history of performing well in the postseason. Part of the reason he had a history of performing well is because he was in the postseason nearly every year of his career as opposed to only 3 years in Ramirez's career.

 

[nwfisch]

Look I think we are saying the same things here, but are putting the focus on different aspects. All baseball players go hot and cold throughout a season. Even Babe Ruth had a bad postseason as poodski pointed out. The point I've been making is that it is unforunate that Ramirez played poorly in those 6 games. Him playing better would have definitely have helped them to play more than 6 games those 2 years. However, what I dispute is that somehow Ramirez could flip a switch and not slump those 6 games. As you pointed out with Babe Ruth he had a history of performing well in the postseason. Part of the reason he had a history of performing well is because he was in the postseason nearly every year of his career as opposed to only 3 years in Ramirez's career.

No we're not.

Spoiler

Still waiting for your pic

Do you think Rammy should be kept?

 

[dabynsky]

No we're not.

Spoiler

Still waiting for your pic

Do you think Rammy should be kept?

Depends on the cost for me, I don't think we should be looking to sign him to a 4 year/60 million+ extension. However, I think he is the best option for the Cubs at 3B for the next 2 plus seasons.

 

[nwfisch]

Depends on the cost for me, I don't think we should be looking to sign him to a 4 year/60 million+ extension. However, I think he is the best option for the Cubs at 3B for the next 2 plus seasons.

I'd rather see Rammy go. Just want a new attitude in the clubhouse, especially if the Cubs are going young.

 

[dabynsky]

I'd rather see Rammy go. Just want a new attitude in the clubhouse, especially if the Cubs are going young.

Perhaps this is just because I remember when we had to hope Kevin Orie was the future at 3B that I am afraid to go back to that position being so unsettled. That said the available 3B this offseason and next are pretty craptacular.

 

[2SeamHeat]

Yes, hitters should be able to control whether or not they hit.

Ramirez lost control, which is why he struggled.

We can play what if til the cows come home, but Rammy's track record shows that he faltered when needed the most. It's not my fault Rammy doesn't have a larger sample size and more success when needed the most.

Again, you don't think the pitchers might have had anything at all to do with this? I guess Lowe, Billingsley, and Kuroda were just there to... I don't know... put the ball in play in 2008. Maybe Webb (NL CY the year before, runner up that year), Davis, and Hernandez were just... operating a pitching machine or something. These guys by no means had anything to do with pitching in a way to make the opposing team's top hitter ineffective offensively. I mean, that's only what they were getting paid to do... no big deal.

The defensive strategy in baseball is to try to keep a certain player or two from beating you. On those 2007-2008 teams, who would that one person be? Aramis Ramirez. To keep him from beating you, you pitch him differently. You find a way to make sure you beat him, and they did.

Oh, and I guess Buster Posey should just retire now. He had a terrible 6 games against the Phillies in the NLCS last year. Guess he couldn't control himself over the likes of Halladay, Oswalt, and Hamels. I suppose those pitchers didn't have a thing to do with how the opposition managed to do offensively. I mean, they were just there to throw batting practice or something.

By the way... why do you forget about what he did in 2003? Why only isolate 2007-2008?

I'm not a ARam defender by most means... but this debate on him being worthless because he had no real protection in the playoffs of 2007-2008 is kinda ridiculous.

 

[Chris J]

Josh Vitters!

 

[Jntg4]

It was a terrible analogy to begin with. The better analogy is Barry Bonds who was viewed as a terrible postseason player until he played better in the 02 playoffs. Ramirez is unlucky in the sense that 6 of his worst games as a player came at the worst time. The thought that he could somehow control that is silly, and why I have been vehemently arguing against those that somehow think going back to the days when Willie Greene was the future at 3B for the Cubs would be better for this team now.

That also matches A-Rod's rep before 2009, and they play same position too, but Bonds analogy works good too.

EDIT: Never mind, you mentioned that in a later post.

 

[DewsSox79]

if they get fielder, everything will be fine

**** pitching, they got wells as a number 3. I would love to see how that pans out in the playoffs.

 

[Captain Obvious]

if they get fielder, everything will be fine

**** pitching, they got wells as a number 3. I would love to see how that pans out in the playoffs.

Right, because that is exactly what we are saying.

 

[nwfisch]

Again, you don't think the pitchers might have had anything at all to do with this? I guess Lowe, Billingsley, and Kuroda were just there to... I don't know... put the ball in play in 2008. Maybe Webb (NL CY the year before, runner up that year), Davis, and Hernandez were just... operating a pitching machine or something. These guys by no means had anything to do with pitching in a way to make the opposing team's top hitter ineffective offensively. I mean, that's only what they were getting paid to do... no big deal.

The defensive strategy in baseball is to try to keep a certain player or two from beating you. On those 2007-2008 teams, who would that one person be? Aramis Ramirez. To keep him from beating you, you pitch him differently. You find a way to make sure you beat him, and they did.

Oh, and I guess Buster Posey should just retire now. He had a terrible 6 games against the Phillies in the NLCS last year. Guess he couldn't control himself over the likes of Halladay, Oswalt, and Hamels. I suppose those pitchers didn't have a thing to do with how the opposition managed to do offensively. I mean, they were just there to throw batting practice or something.

By the way... why do you forget about what he did in 2003? Why only isolate 2007-2008?

I'm not a ARam defender by most means... but this debate on him being worthless because he had no real protection in the playoffs of 2007-2008 is kinda ridiculous.

It amazes how people who defend Aramis Ramirez compare him to Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, and now Buster Posey. Give me a break.

I never said he was worthless, he disappeared when it mattered most.

People go so far to defend a player who gave little to the Cubs.

 

[Captain Obvious]

It amazes how people who defend Aramis Ramirez compare him to Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, and now Buster Posey. Give me a break.

I never said he was worthless, he disappeared when it mattered most.

People go so far to defend a player who gave little to the Cubs.

Yeah that 30 WAR really was little. He has only been a top 10 3B for us. But those 6 games that mattered the most are what counts. Let's just forget about the other ~1,100 games.

 

[Jntg4]

Again, you don't think the pitchers might have had anything at all to do with this? I guess Lowe, Billingsley, and Kuroda were just there to... I don't know... put the ball in play in 2008. Maybe Webb (NL CY the year before, runner up that year), Davis, and Hernandez were just... operating a pitching machine or something. These guys by no means had anything to do with pitching in a way to make the opposing team's top hitter ineffective offensively. I mean, that's only what they were getting paid to do... no big deal.

The defensive strategy in baseball is to try to keep a certain player or two from beating you. On those 2007-2008 teams, who would that one person be? Aramis Ramirez. To keep him from beating you, you pitch him differently. You find a way to make sure you beat him, and they did.

Oh, and I guess Buster Posey should just retire now. He had a terrible 6 games against the Phillies in the NLCS last year. Guess he couldn't control himself over the likes of Halladay, Oswalt, and Hamels. I suppose those pitchers didn't have a thing to do with how the opposition managed to do offensively. I mean, they were just there to throw batting practice or something.

By the way... why do you forget about what he did in 2003? Why only isolate 2007-2008?

I'm not a ARam defender by most means... but this debate on him being worthless because he had no real protection in the playoffs of 2007-2008 is kinda ridiculous.

ARam did have plenty of protection in 2008 :shrug:

 

[nwfisch]

Yeah that 30 WAR really was little. He has only been a top 10 3B for us. But those 6 games that mattered the most are what counts. Let's just forget about the other ~1,100 games.

Yeah the playoffs are what counts. I can't believe people here don't care about the playoffs. Players have to preform when it matters most, which is the playoffs.

Do you honestly not care about his performance in the playoffs?

Spoiler

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oSFYxDGKy8]Jim Mora, PLAYOFFS!? The FULL and COMPLETE SPEECH - YouTube[/ame]