Official Offseason Thread - CUBS edition

[Rice Cube]

I suppose that's true if you think Soriano can be a serviceable defensive 1B, which I don't think he can be I think he'd be absolutely terrible there.

I think most regular 1B are pretty terrible defensively :lol: That's why they're playing 1B and not some other position. They will get the majority of chances and putouts, but all things considered they have the easiest job on the field.

I just think they should try it a few times in spring training. If it doesn't work, no big loss.

 

[2SeamHeat]

I said the only big difference is OBP cause of Pena walks. Yes Pena has equal numbers of Soriano and thats my point. I dont care aobut leader in clubhouse. I dont pay someone to be clubleader. If a team wins chemistry will be great. If team loses then chemistry bad. Just how it works. Another stat that i cant find right now is that Pena is hitting under .200 with runners in scoring position. For a middle of order bat that not good...I like to see what Soriano is

Yeah, cuz leadership has 0 value... especially when mentoring the upstart prospects in certain manners...

Nice how you ignored the fact that Soriano makes nearly double that of Pena, and puts up worse numbers overall. AND is still owed $54M after this season... which will keep him here for 3 more years.

 

[2SeamHeat]

Couple things here
A) What makes you think Ramirez would walk? I see no way he leaves, unless the cubs decline his option and don't offer him a contract.

B) If the Cubs do sign Berkman, I will be very disappointed. He is basically another Carlos Pena. It isn't going in any definitive direction.


Soriano has shown to be iffy? What negatives are you talking about? To my knowledge, he hasn't done anything bad at all. However, I'd love to hear what you have to say about this.


He doesn't put effort into his play? You've got to be kidding me...


That effort most certainly does not disappear. Soriano works his ass off, he's just getting older and doesn't have the ability he once did. Soriano's effort is definitely not a concern.

Really? Soriano works his ass off? What games are you watching? I've watched Soriano through his tenure with the Rangers and now the Cubs. He loafs, constantly. He gets called out on it by announcers all the time. Last year, I thought Brenly was going to have a conniption in about 20 different games because Soriano was so obviously loafing.

As for his leadership. His ability to get away with playing half-ass, much like ARam, is a huge negative. He's also the one that has passed along this "oh well" attitude throughout the clubhouse, as stated by Theriot when he signed with St. Louis. About the one thing he does well in any veteran/leadership manner is getting guys to push through the workouts and practice.

BTW Berkman = Pena? You have got to be joking. Do you have a clue what he's done this year? Captain Obvious... Obviously doesn't. It's the first time he's been healthy in a couple of years.

Berkman: .286/.402/.565/.966 30 HR, 81 RBI, 73 Runs, 168 OPS+, 77 BB, 76 K.... and your favorite worthless metric 4.0 WAR

Pena: .225/.346/.448/.794 24 HR, 68 RBI, 59 Runs, 115 OPS+, 79 BB, 134 K... and your favorite worthless metric 1.4 WAR

Yeah, so much the same it's eery.... :nope:

 

[2SeamHeat]

Couple things here
A) What makes you think Ramirez would walk? I see no way he leaves, unless the cubs decline his option and don't offer him a contract.

Unless the team picks up his option, which has been stated numerous times as being very unlikely, he's gone. In the scenarios put forth by nearly everyone clamoring for Fielder... as was the post I was responding to... there's not enough cash left for ARam.

 

[Rice Cube]

I think it's less a matter of money and more of a matter of him and his agent realizing that the available pool of 3B free agents sucks and even if the Cubs picked up their half of the option, Ramirez might opt out and test free agency.

 

[nwfisch]

What 2seamHeat said

 

[2SeamHeat]

I said the only big difference is OBP cause of Pena walks. Yes Pena has equal numbers of Soriano and thats my point. I dont care aobut leader in clubhouse. I dont pay someone to be clubleader. If a team wins chemistry will be great. If team loses then chemistry bad. Just how it works. Another stat that i cant find right now is that Pena is hitting under .200 with runners in scoring position. For a middle of order bat that not good...I like to see what Soriano is

Pena is hitting .158 with a .346 OBP with RISP. .132 with a .365 OBP with RISP and 2 outs.

Soriano is hitting .250 with a .299 OBP with RISP. .264 with a .339 OBP with RISP and 2 outs.

I can't find a tally for LOB... else I'd post that too.

 

[2SeamHeat]

I think it's less a matter of money and more of a matter of him and his agent realizing that the available pool of 3B free agents sucks and even if the Cubs picked up their half of the option, Ramirez might opt out and test free agency.

It's a team option... not a player or mutual option. ARam nor Kinzer have a say in whether the Cubs exercise or decline it, unless of course they want his feedback.

 

[2SeamHeat]

There have been reports that Fonzie won't be back next year and that means a release more than anything. But I guess we'll see.

I've never seen any such reports, waldo. I've read several times where the Cubs would like ot get rid of him, even eat like 75% of his remaining salary to do so. I have yet to see a single report, rumor, article, etc (beyond speculative posts on message boards) that he won't be around next year... or that there's even the remote possibility of him being released. $54M is a hell of a lot of money to pay someone you simply release.

 

[waldo7239117]

They are out there...believe me. Per Kaplan is one (not too reliable, but still one).

 

[daddies3angels]

Yeah, cuz leadership has 0 value... especially when mentoring the upstart prospects in certain manners...

Nice how you ignored the fact that Soriano makes nearly double that of Pena, and puts up worse numbers overall. AND is still owed $54M after this season... which will keep him here for 3 more years.

Im just asking why do fans think its ok to bring Pena back when he basically has same numbers as Soriano. i never mentioned contracts. I realize Soriano is being paid more over the next 3 years. Im questioning is it smart to sign Pena to another 2 years when he basically puts up Soriano stats. Pena would prolly make 7-10 mil per year. So not much as Soriano but would we pay Soriano 7-10 mil if we had option to keep him at that price? I dont think Cub fans would. They would just say get rid of him. So im saying why are people ok with Cubs keeping Pena when Cubs have a chance to get rid of him at end of season. Again i dont pay a guy cause he good in clubhouse.

 

[2SeamHeat]

Im just asking why do fans think its ok to bring Pena back when he basically has same numbers as Soriano. i never mentioned contracts. I realize Soriano is being paid more over the next 3 years. Im questioning is it smart to sign Pena to another 2 years when he basically puts up Soriano stats. Pena would prolly make 7-10 mil per year. So not much as Soriano but would we pay Soriano 7-10 mil if we had option to keep him at that price? I dont think Cub fans would. They would just say get rid of him. So im saying why are people ok with Cubs keeping Pena when Cubs have a chance to get rid of him at end of season. Again i dont pay a guy cause he good in clubhouse.

I don't want Pena back, to be honest. However, if he's like a 4th or 5th option fall back and only gets paid around $4-5M... and used as a place holder for someone on the farm (or someone else to become available through FA or trade)... I wouldn't ***** so much about it. I'd still prefer to just give LaHair a shot. I really don't think he could do worse than Pena has, and would cost league minimum in doing it. Not saying he's the solution or a long term possibility. But maybe he can hold down the fort for a couple of years... then turn into a bencher with LH pop.

 

[2SeamHeat]

Don't get me wrong... in most of the arguments I make on here... I play devil's advocate. If I argue a player's case, that doesn't mean I am in favor of that player or of his contract. Such as the stance I took on ARam in the 6 playoff games = loser debate... and this stuff on Pena.

In all actuality, if I were the GM... I'd go in one of three ways... spend big and hope it pays off right away... spend a lot and look toward the future... cut payroll and let the guys in AAA and AA battle it out for spots on the roster... and do a complete rebuild with maybe signing 2-3 long term options to build around.

 

[Rice Cube]

It's a team option... not a player or mutual option. ARam nor Kinzer have a say in whether the Cubs exercise or decline it, unless of course they want his feedback.

I think Ramirez can void the option and go free agent and forfeit the buyout.

 

[nwfisch]

Don't get me wrong... in most of the arguments I make on here... I play devil's advocate. If I argue a player's case, that doesn't mean I am in favor of that player or of his contract. Such as the stance I took on ARam in the 6 playoff games = loser debate and this stuff on Pena.

In all actuality, if I were the GM... I'd go in one of three ways... spend big and hope it pays off right away... spend a lot and look toward the future... cut payroll and let the guys in AAA and AA battle it out for spots on the roster... and do a complete rebuild with maybe signing 2-3 long term options to build around.

:bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl:

 

[dabynsky]

Im just asking why do fans think its ok to bring Pena back when he basically has same numbers as Soriano. i never mentioned contracts. I realize Soriano is being paid more over the next 3 years. Im questioning is it smart to sign Pena to another 2 years when he basically puts up Soriano stats. Pena would prolly make 7-10 mil per year. So not much as Soriano but would we pay Soriano 7-10 mil if we had option to keep him at that price? I dont think Cub fans would. They would just say get rid of him. So im saying why are people ok with Cubs keeping Pena when Cubs have a chance to get rid of him at end of season. Again i dont pay a guy cause he good in clubhouse.

What he has a low batting average and power? His numbers are vastly different than Soriano's. All you have to look at is the over 60 point difference in OBP!

 

[2SeamHeat]

What he has a low batting average and power? His numbers are vastly different than Soriano's. All you have to look at is the over 60 point difference in OBP!

Yes, Dab, but you are missing out on about 8 posts of this debate... which stated in the very post that Pena had a much higher OBP than Soriano.

 

[dabynsky]

Yes, Dab, but you are missing out on about 8 posts of this debate... which stated in the very post that Pena had a much higher OBP than Soriano.

Okay but if we acknowledge the huge difference on OBP why are people still saying he is putting up the same numbers as Soriano?

 

[2SeamHeat]

Okay but if we acknowledge the huge difference on OBP why are people still saying he is putting up the same numbers as Soriano?

OBP isn't everything. Look at all of the numbers, Dab. OBP and OPS (because of the OBP) are about the only things that Pena is truly topping Soriano in. Everything else is pretty close.

 

[Rice Cube]

OBP isn't everything. Look at all of the numbers, Dab. OBP and OPS (because of the OBP) are about the only things that Pena is truly topping Soriano in. Everything else is pretty close.

There's also the part where one plays a serviceable first base and the other is terrible in LF.

I shouldn't actually say "terrible"...the defensive metrics are pretty favorable for Soriano even if he does look like shit in the field :lol: