Official Offseason Thread - CUBS edition

[2SeamHeat]

Okay but if we acknowledge the huge difference on OBP why are people still saying he is putting up the same numbers as Soriano?

Pena: 426 AB .225/.346/.448/.794 19 2B, 2 3B, 24 HR, 59 Runs, 68 RBI, 79 BB, 134 K, OPS+ 115

Soriano: 402 AB .244/.284/.480/.764 21 2B, 1 3B, 24 HR, 44 Runs, 68 RBI, 20 BB, 99 K, OPS+ 104

Bolded are the better stats, italicized are the even stats. As you can see, Dab, there isn't a lot of difference between the two outside of the things directly related to OBP.

 

[dabynsky]

Look it is clear you don't place a high value on OBP, and therefore the difference in their numbers isn't that great. And you like numbers which are very team dependent like runs and RBI that are also similar. That is fine, but ignoring OBP is why this team has been below average offensively.

 

[daddies3angels]

Okay but if we acknowledge the huge difference on OBP why are people still saying he is putting up the same numbers as Soriano?

I said OBP is the only stat that Pena is beating Soriano easly. My point is that for a player that is basically putting up Soriano numbers is liked while Soriano is not. I realize the contract has alot to do with that but why would Fans want to see Pena back for 2 more years. I know i dont with those numbers...for a RBI guy hitting under .175 with RISP is NOT GOOD. i dont care if his OBP is over .300 with RISP..means he not getting the big hits. Soriano is at .250 in RISP..So he more clutch

 

[Rice Cube]

There is no clutch, only Zuul.

 

[dabynsky]

I said OBP is the only stat that Pena is beating Soriano easly. My point is that for a player that is basically putting up Soriano numbers is liked while Soriano is not. I realize the contract has alot to do with that but why would Fans want to see Pena back for 2 more years. I know i dont with those numbers...for a RBI guy hitting under .175 with RISP is NOT GOOD. i dont care if his OBP is over .300 with RISP..means he not getting the big hits. Soriano is at .250 in RISP..So he more clutch

Because there is no proof that players are able to control hitting in RISP. Last year Carlos Pena hit .239 with RISP when he was hitting .196. Did he learn how to hit with RISP last year? Did he somehow forgot how to do it when he came here? Or is it like many statistics which have a smaller sample size fluctuate year to year? Remember that this kind of thinking is what lead the Cubs to sign Jeromy Burnitz because he had the 6th best OPS in the NL with RISP or something stupid like that.

There is a huge difference in one of the most important, if not the most important, offensive category. And the margin of difference is the biggest of any the differences in their stats.

 

[2SeamHeat]

Look it is clear you don't place a high value on OBP, and therefore the difference in their numbers isn't that great. And you like numbers which are very team dependent like runs and RBI that are also similar. That is fine, but ignoring OBP is why this team has been below average offensively.

Wrong again, Dab... I do place a high value on OBP. The problem is... OBP IS NOT EVERYTHING. just like OPS isn't everything. Just like RBI aren't everything. Being highly better in one stat does not make you all around better than another player with very similar numbers overall. I don't care what that one stat is.

Kosuke was an OBP beast.... but how did he excel otherwise? What did he do with that OBP? Not a hell of a lot.

 

[Rice Cube]

Wrong again, Dab... I do place a high value on OBP. The problem is... OBP IS NOT EVERYTHING. just like OPS isn't everything. Just like RBI aren't everything. Being highly better in one stat does not make you all around better than another player with very similar numbers overall. I don't care what that one stat is.

Kosuke was an OBP beast.... but how did he excel otherwise? What did he do with that OBP? Not a hell of a lot.

That's because nobody could drive him in and there was nobody on base for him to drive in :lol: Seems to be doing okay in Cleveland though.

 

[daddies3angels]

Because there is no proof that players are able to control hitting in RISP. Last year Carlos Pena hit .239 with RISP when he was hitting .196. Did he learn how to hit with RISP last year? Did he somehow forgot how to do it when he came here? Or is it like many statistics which have a smaller sample size fluctuate year to year? Remember that this kind of thinking is what lead the Cubs to sign Jeromy Burnitz because he had the 6th best OPS in the NL with RISP or something stupid like that.

There is a huge difference in one of the most important, if not the most important, offensive category. And the margin of difference is the biggest of any the differences in their stats.

And again your ok with signing him to another 2 year deal being a 1B and middle of order guy? All im saying is that for a player with really close stats to Soriano guys sure like him while Soriano is hated. Lets say Soriano deal was up end of year. Would you give him 2 yr deal? Im assuming not so why would you give Pena 2 year deal?

 

[dabynsky]

Wrong again, Dab... I do place a high value on OBP. The problem is... OBP IS NOT EVERYTHING. just like OPS isn't everything. Just like RBI aren't everything. Being highly better in one stat does not make you all around better than another player with very similar numbers overall. I don't care what that one stat is.

Kosuke was an OBP beast.... but how did he excel otherwise? What did he do with that OBP? Not a hell of a lot.

So you don't get how a player is significantly better when their numbers are similar except for OBP which is a 60 point difference?

And really RBI as a measure of talent level for a player is silly when it is as heavily dependent on your teammates as it is your own ability.

 

[2SeamHeat]

I said OBP is the only stat that Pena is beating Soriano easly. My point is that for a player that is basically putting up Soriano numbers is liked while Soriano is not. I realize the contract has alot to do with that but why would Fans want to see Pena back for 2 more years. I know i dont with those numbers...for a RBI guy hitting under .175 with RISP is NOT GOOD. i dont care if his OBP is over .300 with RISP..means he not getting the big hits. Soriano is at .250 in RISP..So he more clutch

However.... Soriano is making more outs with RISP than Pena does. Soriano gets more hits, and drives in more runs in those situations. Pena ends fewer potential rallies. Getting on base and keeping those potential rallies going is every bit as important as picking up the hits and driving the guys in.

 

[dabynsky]

And again your ok with signing him to another 2 year deal being a 1B and middle of order guy? All im saying is that for a player with really close stats to Soriano guys sure like him while Soriano is hated. Lets say Soriano deal was up end of year. Would you give him 2 yr deal? Im assuming not so why would you give Pena 2 year deal?

What don't you get about this? You keep saying his numbers are close to Soriano, but in the most important stat (not the only stat but since the game of baseball is based around outs not making outs is the most useful offensive skill a player can have) Pena dwarfs Soriano. Yes I get that he will have a low batting average. Pena isn't an ideal middle of the order bat.

There isn't one move that is going to fix this team. To sit there and say I would or wouldn't be okay with resigning Pena is impossible because I would only be okay with it depending on what else they were doing.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Really? Soriano works his ass off? What games are you watching? I've watched Soriano through his tenure with the Rangers and now the Cubs. He loafs, constantly. He gets called out on it by announcers all the time. Last year, I thought Brenly was going to have a conniption in about 20 different games because Soriano was so obviously loafing.

As for his leadership. His ability to get away with playing half-ass, much like ARam, is a huge negative. He's also the one that has passed along this "oh well" attitude throughout the clubhouse, as stated by Theriot when he signed with St. Louis. About the one thing he does well in any veteran/leadership manner is getting guys to push through the workouts and practice.

BTW Berkman = Pena? You have got to be joking. Do you have a clue what he's done this year? Captain Obvious... Obviously doesn't. It's the first time he's been healthy in a couple of years.

Berkman: .286/.402/.565/.966 30 HR, 81 RBI, 73 Runs, 168 OPS+, 77 BB, 76 K.... and your favorite worthless metric 4.0 WAR

Pena: .225/.346/.448/.794 24 HR, 68 RBI, 59 Runs, 115 OPS+, 79 BB, 134 K... and your favorite worthless metric 1.4 WAR

Yeah, so much the same it's eery.... :nope:

Just because he doesn't run out every ground ball doesn't mean he doesn't work hard and try. Sure, he has some mental lapses, but that doesn't affect his work ethic or his effort.

How do you know that he is the one who passed along this "oh well" attitude? Are you in the clubhouse? Have you talked with the players? I don't see how you could possibly know that.

As for Pena=Berkman, signing either is bad for this team because it means that they aren't looking toward the future.

If WAR is worthless, what is BA?

Unless the team picks up his option, which has been stated numerous times as being very unlikely, he's gone. In the put forth by nearly everyone clamoring for Fielder... as was the post I was responding to... there's not enough cash left for ARam.

I don't see how you know that he won't sign a new deal. You know so much about these players thoughts, it really amazes me!

They are out there...believe me. Per Kaplan is one (not too reliable, but still one).

I don't believe you. At all. Post something backing you up. Google is your friend.

 

[dabynsky]

However.... Soriano is making more outs with RISP than Pena does. Soriano gets more hits, and drives in more runs in those situations. Pena ends fewer potential rallies. Getting on base and keeping those potential rallies going is every bit as important as picking up the hits and driving the guys in.

So the focus is on their performance with RISP in this one season?

 

[daddies3angels]

What don't you get about this? You keep saying his numbers are close to Soriano, but in the most important stat (not the only stat but since the game of baseball is based around outs not making outs is the most useful offensive skill a player can have) Pena dwarfs Soriano. Yes I get that he will have a low batting average. Pena isn't an ideal middle of the order bat.

There isn't one move that is going to fix this team. To sit there are say I would or wouldn't be okay with resigning Pena is impossible because I would only be okay with it depending on what else they were doing.

EVERYTHING is close BUT walks. Soriano dont walk. To say that Pena is SO MUCH BETTER cause he takes walks is crazy. OBP is good BUT when he supposed to be a RBI guy i rather him go out of the zone sometimes and get the sac fly or bloop a single to drive in the run. When it comes down to everyday numbers Pena and Soriano are neck to neck besides walks.

 

[2SeamHeat]

So you don't get how a player is significantly better when their numbers are similar except for OBP which is a 60 point difference?

And really RBI as a measure of talent level for a player is silly when it is as heavily dependent on your teammates as it is your own ability.

No I don't, Dab... nor do most of the GMs and managers around the MLB. One stat does not make you clearly better than another player... especially when the player you are comparing with is picking up his career lowest in that one stat. The only thing that Pena does better than Soriano offensively at this point is walk... period. He has walked 50 some times more than Soriano, yet has only scored 14 more times... and has had over 100 more PA.

In other words, Pena's OBP spike above Soriano's has been virtually meaningless. So when you look at everything else, and realize they are almost nose to nose in everything... just like a good poll statistician, you throw out the skewing data. The skewing data in this case is OBP.

Now, if Pena had higher numbers overall... which he actually did back in July and early August.... I'd say that Pena was having a better year. Now that Soriano has caught up... they're pretty much neck and neck.

 

[dabynsky]

EVERYTHING is close BUT walks. Soriano dont walk. To say that Pena is SO MUCH BETTER cause he takes walks is crazy. OBP is good BUT when he supposed to be a RBI guy i rather him go out of the zone sometimes and get the sac fly or bloop a single to drive in the run. When it comes down to everyday numbers Pena and Soriano are neck to neck besides walks.

Forgot these made up titles about what guys are supposed to do. You get 27 outs in most games. Having guys that don't make outs is always a good thing. It isn't the only thing, but when you get everything else that the player without OBP offers than yes they are much better.

 

[daddies3angels]

No I don't, Dab... nor do most of the GMs and managers around the MLB. One stat does not make you clearly better than another player... especially when the player you are comparing with is picking up his career lowest in that one stat. The only thing that Pena does better than Soriano offensively at this point is walk... period. He has walked 50 some times more than Soriano, yet has only scored 14 more times... and has had over 100 more PA.

In other words, Pena's OBP spike above Soriano's has been virtually meaningless. So when you look at everything else, and realize they are almost nose to nose in everything... just like a good poll statistician, you throw out the skewing data. The skewing data in this case is OBP.

Now, if Pena had higher numbers overall... which he actually did back in July and early August.... I'd say that Pena was having a better year. Now that Soriano has caught up... they're pretty much neck and neck.

THANK YOU for those other stats

 

[dabynsky]

No I don't, Dab... nor do most of the GMs and managers around the MLB. One stat does not make you clearly better than another player... especially when the player you are comparing with is picking up his career lowest in that one stat. The only thing that Pena does better than Soriano offensively at this point is walk... period. He has walked 50 some times more than Soriano, yet has only scored 14 more times... and has had over 100 more PA.

In other words, Pena's OBP spike above Soriano's has been virtually meaningless. So when you look at everything else, and realize they are almost nose to nose in everything... just like a good poll statistician, you throw out the skewing data. The skewing data in this case is OBP.

Now, if Pena had higher numbers overall... which he actually did back in July and early August.... I'd say that Pena was having a better year. Now that Soriano has caught up... they're pretty much neck and neck.

Fine ignore the difference. THey are the same player and we should run them both out of town. It surely will help a team that ranks dead last in drawing walks to run a guy out of town that can actually do it.

 

[2SeamHeat]

So the focus is on their performance with RISP in this one season?

You really do have a hard time reading what's on the page without adding what you think is there.... at least sometimes.

First I hate Colvin... never said anything of that sort. Then I look lightly at OBP, which I've posted a few times on here proving the opposite. Now I'm focused on RISP stats, when I've been responding to a completely different branch of the conversation.

Read what's on the page... stop trying to read between the lines when I try to be very detailed in my posts as to not make the allusion that there is anything hidden or have to be puzzled out. No decoder ring needed with the majority of my posts!

 

[daddies3angels]

Forgot these made up titles about what guys are supposed to do. You get 27 outs in most games. Having guys that don't make outs is always a good thing. It isn't the only thing, but when you get everything else that the player without OBP offers than yes they are much better.

ALWAYS= WRONG

Sac Fly is better then taking walk. Hitting a groundball up the middle with man on 3rd with less then 2 outs a better thing.Sometimes making contact is more important then taking walk so the next guy cant ground into DP to end inning.