Official Offseason Thread - CUBS edition

[dabynsky]

You really do have a hard time reading what's on the page without adding what you think is there.... at least sometimes.

First I hate Colvin... never said anything of that sort. Then I look lightly at OBP, which I've posted a few times on here proving the opposite. Now I'm focused on RISP stats, when I've been responding to a completely different branch of the conversation.

Read what's on the page... stop trying to read between the lines when I try to be very detailed in my posts as to not make the allusion that there is anything hidden or have to be puzzled out. No decoder ring needed with the majority of my posts!

All right it is all in my head. I should have known the value of runs and rbi, and if players are the same in every category except one than they have equal value.

 

[daddies3angels]

Fine ignore the difference. THey are the same player and we should run them both out of town. It surely will help a team that ranks dead last in drawing walks to run a guy out of town that can actually do it.

NO!! it be ALOT smarter to get guy like Fielder who can draw more walks then Pena and PUT UP NUMBERS!!!!!!!

Fielder leads NL in Walks, RBI, top 5 in HR...So how about upgrading at EVERYTHING at 1B

 

[dabynsky]

When were any of us arguing that Fielder was not a huge upgrade over Pena?

 

[nwfisch]

:jackson:

 

[Rice Cube]

When were any of us arguing that Fielder was not a huge upgrade over Pena?

I don't think we were.

GIDPs happen, but that usually means you had guys who could get on base. It's more of a bad luck thing than an actual "skill" to GIDP a bunch.

 

[daddies3angels]

When were any of us arguing that Fielder was not a huge upgrade over Pena?

Im just making point we dont resign a guy cause he can take walks....i just made a point that if Soriano was a FA to be that no one would want to resign him for 2 years unlike Pena who puts up same numbers BUT walks., people dont care if he comes back. I just thought that was funny

 

[dabynsky]

I don't think we were.

GIDPs happen, but that usually means you had guys who could get on base. It's more of a bad luck thing than an actual "skill" to GIDP a bunch.

Where are GIDPs coming into the discussion? I am honestly asking.

 

[Rice Cube]

Im just making point we dont resign a guy cause he can take walks....i just made a point that if Soriano was a FA to be that no one would want to resign him for 2 years unlike Pena who puts up same numbers BUT walks people dont care if he comes back. I just thought that was funny

I don't want to re-sign Pena either unless he's willing to take a paycut :lol: Soriano you're pretty much stuck with unless the Cubs decide to just release him.

 

[daddies3angels]

Where are GIDPs coming into the discussion? I am honestly asking.

I missed that one to lol

 

[Rice Cube]

Where are GIDPs coming into the discussion? I am honestly asking.

That was a couple posts ago, not from you. Just too lazy to quote.

 

[nwfisch]

Thread is :wacko:

Nobody said Pena>Fielder.

Nobody said they'd be happy if the Cubs just re-signed Pena.

I want to see the kids play next year, and continue to develop the farm, and ride out Soriano's contract.

 

[daddies3angels]

I don't want to re-sign Pena either unless he's willing to take a paycut :lol: Soriano you're pretty much stuck with unless the Cubs decide to just release him.

Thats my point...guys dont care if he comes back if he took paycut. Now if Soriano was a FA to be and willing to take paycut people still wouldnt want him back lol

 

[dabynsky]

Im just making point we dont resign a guy cause he can take walks....i just made a point that if Soriano was a FA to be that no one would want to resign him for 2 years unlike Pena who puts up same numbers BUT walks., people dont care if he comes back. I just thought that was funny

Well the reason I would want it is because walking is a skill this team lacks and a reason why this team isn't a good offense. Again though that is prefaced with the idea that the Cubs would then go out and fix pitching. Just bringing back this same team clearly isn't going to lead to significantly better results.

 

[Rice Cube]

Thats my point...guys dont care if he comes back if he took paycut. Now if Soriano was a FA to be and willing to take paycut people still wouldnt want him back lol

They might want 2007-2008 Soriano, but definitely not broken Soriano.

 

[daddies3angels]

Thread is :wacko:

Nobody said Pena>Fielder.

Nobody said they'd be happy if the Cubs just re-signed Pena.

I want to see the kids play next year, and continue to develop the farm, and ride out Soriano's contract.

I have seen threads where people say they would rather Cubs sign Wilson/Pena then go after Fielder/SP?

I just dont understand why when he puts up the same numbers as Soriano BUT walks

 

[2SeamHeat]

Fine ignore the difference. THey are the same player and we should run them both out of town. It surely will help a team that ranks dead last in drawing walks to run a guy out of town that can actually do it.

Again, adding more than what I've said, Dab. Is this how you try to back up arguments you can't support?

It's very simple.... one stat does not make you better or worse than any other player. Very simple.

It's the combination of stats that do. Since there is no real combination of stats beyond the Walks and those things directly connected to them... these two have had extremely similar seasons. If you take walks completely out of the equation... Soriano is actually putting up better numbers. That's the debate here. Not whether or not walks matter. Seriously? The cubs are near the cellar in walks as it is... and for all of those grand walks Pena has picked up he's only scored twice more than Barney has... despite having a nearly 30 point lower OBP. He's only scored 13 more time than Byrd... despite having 120 more PAs. Despite waking so much in his career, Pena has only had 2 seasons where he's scored more than 90 runs.

In other words, his high walk totals have rarely amounted to much. This is not the case wit hall players, but with Pena it is.

 

[dabynsky]

I have seen threads where people say they would rather Cubs sign Wilson/Pena then go after Fielder/SP?

I just dont understand why when he puts up the same numbers as Soriano BUT walks

See that is what some of us have argued. That pitching is a far greater need and that the overall upgrade to next year's team would be greater with Wilson/Pena than Fielder/and whatever pitcher you could sign for the money left over from Fielder that equaled Wilson/Pena which probably is at best 7 million.

 

[Captain Obvious]

OBP isn't everything. Look at all of the numbers, Dab. OBP and OPS (because of the OBP) are about the only things that Pena is truly topping Soriano in. Everything else is pretty close.

OBP and OPS are the two most important stats that were listed. I am seriously starting to question whether or not you know anything about stats and correlation

EVERYTHING is close BUT walks. Soriano dont walk. To say that Pena is SO MUCH BETTER cause he takes walks is crazy. OBP is good BUT when he supposed to be a RBI guy i rather him go out of the zone sometimes and get the sac fly or bloop a single to drive in the run. When it comes down to everyday numbers Pena and Soriano are neck to neck besides walks.

RBI guy? C'mon d3a, you're better than that. RBI is a team stat based off where a guy hits in the line up. Sure, they are neck to neck in those stats, but those are just counting stats, as in they don't mean shit to anyone with a brain. Oh, BTW, walks are pretty damn important.

 

[daddies3angels]

See that is what some of us have argued. That pitching is a far greater need and that the overall upgrade to next year's team would be greater with Wilson/Pena than Fielder/and whatever pitcher you could sign for the money left over from Fielder that equaled Wilson/Pena which probably is at best 7 million.

I think we just kind of proved that Fielder over Pena is a HUGE thing while Wilson is a nice SP but could prolly still find someone that would only be difference in 3-5 wins.

 

[Rice Cube]

Again, adding more than what I've said, Dab. Is this how you try to back up arguments you can't support?

It's very simple.... one stat does not make you better or worse than any other player. Very simple.

It's the combination of stats that do. Since there is no real combination of stats beyond the Walks and those things directly connected to them... these two have had extremely similar seasons. If you take walks completely out of the equation... Soriano is actually putting up better numbers. That's the debate here. Not whether or not walks matter. Seriously? The cubs are near the cellar in walks as it is... and for all of those grand walks Pena has picked up he's only scored twice more than Barney has... despite having a nearly 30 point lower OBP. He's only scored 13 more time than Byrd... despite having 120 more PAs. Despite waking so much in his career, Pena has only had 2 seasons where he's scored more than 90 runs.

In other words, his high walk totals have rarely amounted to much. This is not the case wit hall players, but with Pena it is.

That's a function of who is hitting behind Pena. You have Byrd who is impatient and grounds out a lot. You have Soriano who strikes out and generally makes outs if he doesn't crush the ball. You then have to deal with a number of other subpar players in the lineup, including Soto having a poor season. Pena not scoring isn't his fault; he can't hit a home run all the time.