Official WhiteSox Trade Discussion VOL 1

[GrinderBall41]

Small sample sizes can be nice. Or bad. Whatever.

Look, I'm not exactly sure where I stand on Quentin, though I'm leaning towards the "he's an average-at-best player that benefited from a long run of luck for one season" side. 2008 was a fantastic season, but everything he's shown since then leads me to believe that he's just not that good, and relies more on luck than anything else.

I hope I'm wrong, but let's calm down before we anoint him "back to 2008 form".

You cant question his plate discipline.

You cant question his power.

Whats doubtable is his mentality. Is he too mentally fragile to be consistent? Possibly. But I dont think so. I think he will be an .850+ OPS player his whole career, with some .900+ seasons mixed in, and maybe a few down years like this one (still around .800 this year).

So his likely career path is similar to Konerko's. But he definitely has a high ceiling. MVP potential.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

Sacrasm? Because they are very very different players. One is good defensively, the other sucks. One has a bad, AVG-driven career OBP. The other has a good career OBP and good plate discipline.

Pierre: .249/.318/.279
Figgins: .232/.334/.276

Yea, they sure are different. And Pierre is a good defender, he just has a weak arm. What games have you been watching, I've seen Pierre and I see our best defensive LF'er in a while.

Youre right he had a couple of bad weeks he will never bounce back from that. Lets give up on him. Fuck MVP potential, lets send him to the minors.

You're probably right here, I wouldn't be that dramatic about it, but you never know.

You cant question his plate discipline.

Yea, I love it when he always comes up in clutch moments and always takes huge swings on balls low and away out of the zone. It's kind of a wonder how he has such good stats with RISP.

So his likely career path is similar to Konerko's. But he definitely has a high ceiling. MVP potential.

You're likely to be disappointed. 2 week sample sizes ftl.

 

[GrinderBall41]

Pierre: .249/.318/.279
Figgins: .232/.334/.276

You're likely to be disappointed. 2 week sample sizes ftl.

Career numbers. Look at them. They are on the internet.


And yes Pierre has good range for a LF. But if that's the only position he can play (which it is), he's pretty worthless.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

Career numbers. Look at them. They are on the internet.


And yes Pierre has good range for a LF. But if that's the only position he can play (which it is), he's pretty worthless.

Career numbers? Fuck career numbers. If we're getting Figgins right now, it's assuming he can turn it around and be a solid leadoff hitter which he has shown he can not hit like one this season. Why the hell would we look at career numbers and trade for Figgins when he's Pierre V2 at the plate right now?

And Pierre can play CF, that's kind of where he spent about 85% of his career at. But still, that doesn't even matter really so how would him only being capable of playing CF make him worthless when he's a damn good defensive LF'er?

Also, Pierre is 2nd in baseball among LF'ers in UZR/150 and 3rd in UZR and as a whole has graded out really well with UZR since the early part of this decade.

 

[Lefty]

You cant question his plate discipline.

Actually, you can. The percentage of pitches he swings at outside of the strike zone has been trending upwards since he came into the league. In 2008 he swung at 26 percent of the pitches he saw outside the zone, then 29 percent in 2009 and 28 percent this season.

Furthermore, the total percentage of pitches he sees in the strike zone has been trending downward each season since 2008, yet 2008 remains the year of his highest walk rate at 11.6 percent. He's seeing fewer pitches in the strike zone, but instead of turning in more walks as a result, he's flailing more and more, turning in the performances we have seen over the last two years.

You cant question his power.

This is true, but his power can and will be mitigated somewhat by a lack of OBP. A word of warning, though: Quentin's HR-power might not be all that it's cracked up to be. In 2008 he was near the top of the league in HR/FB ratio, blowing past the league average and his career norms with almost 21% of the fly balls he hit turning into home runs. However, his HR/FB ratio has been on the down slope since that season, yet the number of fly balls he hits has been increasing steadily from season to season.

Whats doubtable is his mentality. Is he too mentally fragile to be consistent? Possibly. But I dont think so. I think he will be an .850+ OPS player his whole career, with some .900+ seasons mixed in, and maybe a few down years like this one (still around .800 this year).

I think it's a bit unfair to automatically label bad play as "inconsistency possibly due to mental fragility" and completely throw out the notion that his great play might be due to luck more than anything else. Because really, he's shown us 569 PA's worth of fantastic results followed by 674 PA's of average-at-best production.

But he definitely has a high ceiling. MVP potential.

Well, he's 27. So....kinda needs to get on that whole "attaining his ceiling" thing.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

Because really, he's shown us 569 PA's worth of fantastic results followed by 674 PA's of average-at-best production. .

Thank you, he hit .230/.316/.425 before his "breakout" season and then .235/.328/.458 in the seasons after. If he's going to be a .245/.335/.460 hitter with how bad he plays the outfield, that is not that quality of a player.

 

[Lefty]

Thank you, he hit .230/.316/.425 before his "breakout" season and then .235/.328/.458 in the seasons after. If he's going to be a .245/.335/.460 hitter with how bad he plays the outfield, that is not that quality of a player.

Yeah, I mean he's not bad (that kind of batting line is about league-average for a RFer), necessarily. He's above replacement level batting-wise, but add in his defense and the position he plays and he has been hovering right around that level for his whole career (save for 2008).

Though I have a bad feeling Kenny is going to do something stupid like buy out his arb years or give him any kind of deal once he reaches FA in 2013. When can Hahn take over?

 

[GrinderBall41]

He has attained his ceiling. We saw it in '08.

Shaky confidence is going to cause you to swing at more pitches.

And a combination of injuries and shaky confidence will cause you to hit less HR's per flyball.

Those who play the game (not saying you havent i dont know) know that being in a slump will hurt even your periferal stats because you tend to go outside your normal game to try to force things to happen.

I admit, it's been a long slump. But that comes from injury and mental instability. He's always capable of pulling off another '08. But we will see.

 

[hsvj60]

Bottom line Quentin's on fire if we make a I want to bring DeAza up and release A Jjones

 

[GrinderBall41]

Also, Pierre is 2nd in baseball among LF'ers in UZR/150 and 3rd in UZR and as a whole has graded out really well with UZR since the early part of this decade.

THats because LF's are typically big slow hitters. Pods always rates as a good defensive LF and we all know how wrong that is. Defense should weigh very, very little in the value of a LF.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

THats because LF's are typically big slow hitters. Pods always rates as a good defensive LF and we all know how wrong that is. Defense should weigh very, very little in the value of a LF.

Crawford? Pierre? Holliday? Hamilton? Soriano? Willingham? Pods? Bay? Coghlan? Braun?

Yea, what big, slow hitters they are! :rofl:

 

[GrinderBall41]

Crawford? Pierre? Holliday? Hamilton? Soriano? Willingham? Pods? Bay? Coghlan? Braun?

Yea, what big, slow hitters they are! :rofl:

The UZR numbers of a LF are hugely inflated if you put a CF-type over there. SO bad OF's with good make-up speed like Pierre and Pods will rate really high in UZR.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

The UZR numbers of a LF are hugely inflated if you put a CF-type over there. SO bad OF's with good make-up speed like Pierre and Pods will rate really high in UZR.

What the hell are you talking about? Do you even have a clue about what you're babbling about right now?

 

[GrinderBall41]

What the hell are you talking about? Do you even have a clue about what you're babbling about right now?

- Defense means nothing for a LF

- A good UZR in LF does not make you a valuable player

- Put Pierre in CF or RF and his UZR would be awful

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

- Defense means nothing for a LF

- A good UZR in LF does not make you a valuable player

- Put Pierre in CF or RF and his UZR would be awful

You truly are a tool. Lefty, where are ya to tear this ripe pussy up?

 

[GrinderBall41]

You truly are a tool. Lefty, where are ya to tear this ripe pussy up?

Fuck off internet tough guy you have no clue what youre talking about.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

Fuck off internet tough guy you have no clue what youre talking about.

Says the Special person who thinks defense isn't important in LF and has no clue about UZR. I'd love to hear your explanation on your three points in your last post.

 

[GrinderBall41]

Says the Special person who thinks defense isn't important in LF and has no clue about UZR. I'd love to hear your explanation on your three points in your last post.

UZR is calculated relative to other fielders in the league at your position, so it is much easier to post a good UZR in LF (an offense-first position) than in CF.

In stats like WAR, defense is factored in very little for a LF or 1B, because they are not important defensive positions.

Just look at Pods' or Pierre's career UZR's (probably other examples but i cant think of any right now) and you will see much higher numbers in LF than in the other 2 positions.

Basically my original point was that Figgins is a much more valuable defensive player than Pierre because he puts up good numbers at a more important position.

 

[GrinderBall41]

If you require further explanation, it will have to wait as my work day is almost over and i wont be on here until tomorrow.

 

[GrinderBall41]

To be fair, the small flaw in my three points was that defense means nothing for a LF, more accurately defense means very very little for a LF.