OT: Ranking the 30 Best NBA teams from 2000-'12

[CODE_BLUE56]

Hawks, Cavs and Lakers took them 7.

lakers lost in 6, i thought

 

[BNB]

Hawks, Cavs and Lakers took them 7.

lakers was 6

Edit: Yeah, Code got it.

 

[houheffna]

lakers was 6

Edit: Yeah, Code got it.

Yeah, my bad

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

i'll give you rebounding..but defense is pretty equal....orlando had a better FG defense but dallas had a better PPG defense..

Dwight Howard is the difference to me. Pietrus was their main perimeter guy and that was enough for them to be the #1 defensive team (opponents points per possession) during the 2009 season. Dallas was #5 in defense during the 2007 season.

stackhouse,terry,dirk, and harris are all very good 3 point shooters along with anthony johnson and a few others

It's kind of a wash at three-point shooting. Both teams had 4 starters shooting well above average at three's (and then some off the bench like Redick). The difference was that the one guy on Orlando who wasn't shooting three's was their low-post scorer. Dallas' was Dampier. Orlando could spread the floor better because of that.

who's going to guard dirk? lewis? that would be a terrible matchup...

True. But you know Dirk wouldn't want to take it inside on Howard too often.

orlando's defensive advantage is mitigated a bit by the fact that howard, who is the primary reason they had a good defense, will be facing dampier and an offense that relies on shooting

I'm not sure what you are getting at there. Dampier could defend Howard well but offensively was a liability. Gortat was pretty good too.

josh howard and jason terry aren't as good or better play makers than hedo? really?

By play-maker, I mean facilitator. And, yeah. I believe Hedo had better passing ability and court vision than Terry and especially Josh Howard.

nelson's not a great PG..he's a good shooter but never really was a PG imo

I think Devin Harris was a little more raw than Jameer Nelson at that point. Nelson was a very good, fundamentally-sound PG.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I find it pretty funny myself that the 2008 Celtics of all teams is being brought up to help defend the 2012 Heat.

Look at what the old-man version (with a better version of Rondo and MUCH weaker bench [2008 bench was STAKED]) did to the 2012 Heat. I am pretty confident in my belief that the '08 Celtics would not lose to the 2012 Heat no matter how many series they played.

The Celtics took the Hawks very lightly in that first round series and that was the main reason they were taken to 7 games. Then, the Cavs took them to 7 which was a series I didn't get to see because of working and going to school non-stop. I know LeBron had an amazing game 7 and they still lost.

Then the Lakers (easily the best team of the 3) lost to Boston in 6.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Dwight Howard is the difference to me. Pietrus was their main perimeter guy and that was enough for them to be the #1 defensive team (opponents points per possession) during the 2009 season. Dallas was #5 in defense during the 2007 season.

what's the difference in OPPP between the two? that's what i care about more than comparing that stat with other teams that season

Dwight Howard is literally the reason for that defense being good...when you have a defense that's predicated through an interior big man, it's susceptible to a team with good perimeter skills like the mavericks(because i mean, you're not going to expect dwight to do shit on the perimeter)...

plus when you have an individual who makes the defense work like howard..you're probably going to try to get him in foul trouble, which howard is prone to

i could see some plays drawn by Johnson to get terry and some other to drive and draw some fouls(dampier and diop get some more touches)

It's kind of a wash at three-point shooting. Both teams had 4 starters shooting well above average at three's (and then some off the bench like Redick). The difference was that the one guy on Orlando who wasn't shooting three's was their low-post scorer. Dallas' was Dampier. Orlando could spread the floor better because of that.

but they really didn't have a medium..it was really just chuckers and howard...

while the mavericks were perimeter oriented, guys like howard and harris provided a medium inside the arc(meaning drives and midrange)

plus dirk's mid range game was unstoppable, and he was playing at his best that season

True. But you know Dirk wouldn't want to take it inside on Howard too often.

he wouldn't need to...dirk would just eat lewis alive and then pull gortat away to leave some mid range room for other guys

dirk could drive when howard is out or when he is in foul trouble

I'm not sure what you are getting at there. Dampier could defend Howard well but offensively was a liability. Gortat was pretty good too.

howard wouldn't be as effective because he's facing dampier, which means he won't be as influential since dampier was more involved for clean up and a few post ups but not much

i could see dampier and diop getting into it more mostly to draw some fouls on howard

By play-maker, I mean facilitator.

you could have specified that...because when i think of a play-maker, i think of someone who makes plays with the basketball, which involves more than just passing

And, yeah. I believe Hedo had better passing ability and court vision than Terry

except terry averaged more assists and less turnovers that season

and especially Josh Howard.

if we're talking about play making, as in, making actually plays

i'm not so sure

if we're talking about facilitating, yea it's not close....but you did not specify so i assumed you meant it more literally

I think Devin Harris was a little more raw than Jameer Nelson at that point. Nelson was a very good, fundamentally-sound PG.

i guess nelson was better, but he never really took the role of a PG...he was pretty much a shooting guard who loses quite a bit of influence if his shot is off and isn't that great of a defender


if i'm johnson i run a bit of a variant of over-play pressure defense to cause some turnovers and make it tough for the orlando guys to take and make 3 point shots

which means they pass it up to gortat and howard(but mainly howard)

easy thing to do here is to put diop or dampier on him, who are good and capable defenders

howard will still get some points, but you make the offense funnel to the post more

plus you can always use diop as a foul dummy and do a little "hack a howard",because howard is below 60% on FTs

plus, what if howard gets in foul trouble? then overplay can become very problematic

 

[Scoot26]

Really? You think those Suns teams who could never reach the Finals would beat this year's Miami Heat?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I see what you are saying about Dampier and Diop being a tough match-up for Howard. Still, Howard will get his and Gortat was a nice back-up when foul trouble ensued. Orlando did have better floor-spacing.

Good point about Terry having more assists and less turnovers. I still believe Hedo was a better standing passer from what I have seen. Terry had better ball-handling ability to go along with the passing.

All in all, I wouldn't put either of these teams in the top 30.

Don't forget, the Cavs of 2009 won 66 games. They aren't even close to the top 30.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Really? You think those Suns teams who could never reach the Finals would beat this year's Miami Heat?

Did you see what they did to the Spurs in 2007? They had Game 1 in the bag until Nash was forced to sit out with a bloody face.

Then the Suns were absolutely robbed of Game 3 in San Antonio by HORRIBLE officiating.

Then, Horry shoves Nash into the scorers' table and Amare and Diaw leave the bench. Thereby being suspended for Game 5 in Phoenix. They were still competitive in that game but still lost.

Those Suns were deadly. They had a better bread-and-butter option offensively than Miami did (pick-and-roll with the best version of Amare Stoudemire- fresh off of missing the 2006 season and developing a great jump-shot).

And Miami don't have a big man who is as good defensively/on the boards as Kurt Thomas.

I'm taking the Suns.

Marion was a beast, too. Barbosa and Bell could both hit three's all day.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LT_C7o5ZGM]Robert Horry checks Steve Nash HARD - YouTube[/ame]

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I see what you are saying about Dampier and Diop being a tough match-up for Howard. Still, Howard will get his and Gortat was a nice back-up when foul trouble ensued. Orlando did have better floor-spacing.

gortat was ok, at that point he was barely played though so i wouldn't say he was a nice backup...he would have trouble against diop and dampier

Good point about Terry having more assists and less turnovers. I still believe Hedo was a better standing passer from what I have seen. Terry had better ball-handling ability to go along with the passing.

terry's play making was a little better because he could create by making space with his handle...and was more efficient

hedo had good vision as a point forward but didn't have fantastic handles

All in all, I wouldn't put either of these teams in the top 30.

well,it is a subjective list(i'm just not a big fan of them because when you make a list like this and it's this big..it's subject to a ridiculous amount of subjectivity)

not a big fan of some of the teams on there...2011 mavericks and 2006 heat are two(i know they won the title but so what?)

Don't forget, the Cavs of 2009 won 66 games. They aren't even close to the top 30.

not sure if i would put them there either..their supporting cast was not very good and that is what killed them

tidbit about harris vs. nelson that's important...harris is 6'3-6'4..nelson is modestly 6 foot..

height discrepancy would play a role in the matchup

 

[Rice Cube]

1) '00 Los Angeles Lakers (won title-- Shaq, Kobe, Rice)

That's because I'm fucking awesome :woot:

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

whatifsports could be useful here again(although it's pretty flawed imo...soooo:shrug

 

[Rice Cube]

What you could do is simulate a game between the various teams :lol: Is that what your "whatifsports" does?

 

[nwfisch]

The '12 Heat being 27 is a damn travesty...

They're better than the '11 Mavericks.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

What you could do is simulate a game between the various teams :lol: Is that what your "whatifsports" does?

yep

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

The '12 Heat being 27 is a damn travesty...

They're better than the '11 Mavericks.

Not at center. Not at point guard. Their coaching isn't better either.

LeBron James has improved. Wade hasn't improved and Bosh has gotten used to the system. Spoelstra has learned from many of his mistakes. Still, not better than the '11 Mavericks.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Not at center. Not at point guard. Their coaching isn't better either.

LeBron James has improved. Wade hasn't improved and Bosh has gotten used to the system. Spoelstra has learned from many of his mistakes. Still, not better than the '11 Mavericks.

exactly..he's the main reason the mavs won that series

and if it hadn't been for that crazy comeback in miami...the heat would have been up 2-0..at one point they were up 2-1

with lebron in 2012 working in the post and actually showing up for the finals..that poses all kinds of problems for the mavs

 

[nwfisch]

Not at center. Not at point guard. Their coaching isn't better either.

LeBron James has improved. Wade hasn't improved and Bosh has gotten used to the system. Spoelstra has learned from many of his mistakes. Still, not better than the '11 Mavericks.

Mario Chalmers closed the gap on Kidd and surpassed him this season IMO.

LeBron>>>>>>2011 Dallas SF

Wade>>>Terry/Stevenson

Battier also helped the Heat a lot this postseason.

A healthy Haslem as well.

 

[thechosenone]

whatifsports could be useful here again(although it's pretty flawed imo...soooo:shrug

whatifsports (twice):

2012 Bulls - 2012 Heat 4-3