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What I find interesting as well, is that even though James career usage rate is much higher than Nash's(31.8%-21.2%) James' turnover percentage is drastically lower.(12.1%-19.5%)
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i think the idea is that nash is more efficient because he was never really the focal point of the sun's offense, so he had less defensive attention committed to him(especially when you have guys like amare,joe johnson,and shawn marion, bringing too much defensive attention to a passing PG would be a bad a mistake)
of course,as noted, the suns system helped too..which inflated his offensive numbers a little because of the pieces that nash had around him and how it was such a good offensive system and team as directed by D'antoni
with an up-tempo offense and lots of scorers to spread the defensive attention, nash had more room to make shots(especially in transition)
lebron,in cleveland, had alot more defensive attention on him and did not really have scorers that spread the defensive attention and allowed lebron to get easier shots...plus lebron was, like, the root of the offense in nearly ever facet, so you know that he would get more defensive attention
i think nash could be argued to be more efficient if we're looking at pure numbers, but taking the systems into account and all other variables, i think lebron is more offensively efficient
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Essentially, Lebron could do what Nash did and be as efficient...if not more so. Nash could not do what Lebron did and be as efficient.
I actually think it's really impressive Lebron is in a dead heat
troll with Nash given the fact that Nash played in such a friendly system with a better surrounding cast in relation to Lebron and what he had and played in.Like I said earlier I think if you allow Lebron to pick his spots and shoot only 10-15 times a game on average in a run and gun system you're looking at a likely triple double. Ask Nash to force the play more, be "the guy", and play in the the system Lebron did, with James' surrounding cast and shoot 20+ times a game...Nash's team is picking in the lottery.
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2011-12 season:
Steve Nash 2-pt%: 58%
LeBron James 2-pt%: 55.4%
Steve Nash 3-pt%: 39%
LeBron James 3-pt%: 36%
Steve Nash FT%: 89%
LeBron James FT%: 77%
Steve Nash is a more efficient scorer across aboard than even LeBron's most efficient statistical year. Especially free-throws.
In LBJ's defense, he takes much more FT's than Nash so that helps his overall scoring efficiency relative to Nash.
But Nash takes more three's which helps his efficiency relative to LBJ.
Steve Nash 2-pt%: 58%
LeBron James 2-pt%: 55.4%
Steve Nash 3-pt%: 39%
LeBron James 3-pt%: 36%
Steve Nash FT%: 89%
LeBron James FT%: 77%
Steve Nash is a more efficient scorer across aboard than even LeBron's most efficient statistical year. Especially free-throws.
In LBJ's defense, he takes much more FT's than Nash so that helps his overall scoring efficiency relative to Nash.
But Nash takes more three's which helps his efficiency relative to LBJ.
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Despite that, LBJ is the better scorer than Nash. If Nash was putting up the same volume of scoring attempts as LBJ, his efficiency would drop dramatically.
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I no longer understand the point Rami is trying to make...
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WOW! NBA record?
HERP THE FUCKING DERP!
Kind of stupid/pointless to say Steve Nash is "more efficient" than Lebron when if asked to do the same thing you readily admit Nash would be much less efficient.
This basically renders everything Rami has been trying to say for the last day or so moot.
Nice work.
It's too bad the actual good basketball discussion had to be ruined by you poking your idiotic head back in here.
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Don't feel bad. Rami never understood it to begin with.
From what I can gather from his cluterfuck of postings is basically this:
"Steve Nash; despite playing in an amazingly more PG friendly system, exclusively playing the point in said system, having a better surrounding cast, and not being asked to force action, score the ball, or demanding the same defensive attention that Lebron James does, is "more efficient" than James because I looked at basketball reference.com and compared shooting percentages and left out any and all the contextualizing factors.
In summation.
Herp.
Derp.
-Rami"
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The point was originally about whether the 2005/2007 Suns could beat the 2012 Heat. I said yes because I believe the Suns' offense was much better than the Heat offense (more-so than the difference between Miami's [superior] and Phoenix's defense).
Nash was brought up by me because I said that he was on the same level offensively as LBJ or Wade- not necessarily better but on the same playing field).
Also, Nash+Stoudemire in a pick-and-roll game is far superior than any bread and butter play Miami had offensively to depend upon when in doubt.
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Well in that case...no Miami would win.
Well great job arguing that point...
Yeah I'll give you that. Miami only had isolations to depend on, but all the same...when you have Lebron, Wade, and Bosh, those isolations become very very very dangerous.
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Well in that case...no Miami would win.
Well great job arguing that point...
Yeah I'll give you that. Miami only had isolations to depend on, but all the same...when you have Lebron, Wade, and Bosh, those isolations become very very very dangerous.
Look at it this way. PHX'07 scored over 11 pts more than MIA'12 per100 possessions. MIA'12 allowed 6 less points than PHX'07 per100 possessions.
That tells us that Miami's defense was better than the Suns. But the difference between the Sun's offense and Miami's is greater.
PHX'07: ~113.5 scored : ~106 allowed
MIA'12: ~106.5 scored : ~ 100 allowed
It is tricky measuring these numbers over the course of different seasons because there were different players/rosters for the most part. But the quality of overall competition hasn't taken THAT much of a dip over the course of 6 years.
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Yeah because when looking at how Miami from this season and Phoenix from 5 years ago match up...it's more important to know a stat that factors in how Phoenix played against the 2007 Grizzlies and the Heat did against the 2012 Bobcats...not how they matchup against each other.
Isn't this the 3rd time we've gone over this with you in this very thread?
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So what? It's not about how they played against everyone else, it's about how they'd play against each other.
Miami has guys that can stop the guys on that PHX team. Lebron can shut down Marion. Bosh and Amare pretty much cancel out. Wade > Joe Johnson. You flip that around and Marion can't stop Lebron (but he'll do a better job than most defensively, I'll give him that). Joe Johnson can't stop Wade. Again, Bosh and Amare cancel out.
The one thing I'll give PHX is that they have a more balanced team...meaning not just 3 players that can score. I'll take Barbosa, Nash, Diaw, and idk who else...Raja Bell over the rest of Miami's team. But at the same time, a lot of those guys were pretty much just shooting 3s the whole game. You can nullify one of them by just standing near them pretty much.
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I have already brought up that measuring in different years is flawed but at least it is a solid statistic to measure offensive and defensive team efficiency (and a large sample-size for each).
You have yet to shoot down that Kurt Thomas (Suns'07) is the best interior defender on either team.
Nor have you shot down that Nash and Stoudemire have the best half-court offensive option of either team.
The Suns had three players shooting 40%+ from three as well.
You do not know that Miami was better than Phoenix back in '07.
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Very true. Marion is a very decent option to defend LBJ and Bell is a very good option to guard D-Wade though so consider that.
Joe Johnson wasn't on that team. Bell was a better defender than Johnson regardless.
Bosh and Amare do not cancel out. Amare was the better player back in his earlier years with the Suns. That was right after he improved his jump-shot and was still incredibly explosive in getting to and finishing at the rim.
Miami definitely has better iso. scorers than the Suns did. I'm just not so sure how that would have panned out for them.
The 2005 Suns were also different than the 2007 Suns. The 2005 Suns had a legit iso scorer in Joe Johnson but lacked the defense which Kurt Thomas provided. Amare also wasn't as developed as a shooter.
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Yet you still keep using it?!
"hey guiz, I know this stat is flawed but my argument is based on THIS!"
You do realize how stupid you sound right?
Um herp derp.
The point is that it's not "solid" at all.
Yeah, because:
1. Kurt Thomas blows.
2. If the Suns "key" to beating this Heat team lies in Kurt fucking Thomas defending the interior after we just saw what Miami did inside against defenders like Ibaka and Perkins...I'd say Phoenix is pretty far up a creek. The Heats best interior player is James. If Phoenix wants to matchup Kurt Thomas on James...go for it. Other wise Thomas' great "interior defense" is being pretty much wasted because he would likely be busy chasing Bosh around the high post area. That's great for Kurt Thomas he's the best interior defender on either team...but if he's not on the interior in the first place based on how Miami plays..it becomes moot.
But yeah, let's just make statements about Kurt Thomas whilst ignoring how the teams actually play!
IMO, Nash would get his poop pushed on the perimeter by the Miami wings and guards. Especially on the offensive end. Nash never dealt well with physical guard play up top(hence why the Spurs did so well against the Suns) and in guys like Wade, Chalmers, Battier, Cole(if they chose to use him) the Heat have a lot of different options to throw Phoenix's way.
Stoudemire IMO is kind of a puss and frankly I think Bosh is tougher. I'd also be interested to see if the heat threw Lebron on him at times and had Lebron help double off that screen roll or how Nash would deal with an elite wing like Lebron hedging out off that roll seeing as Lebron could cover him off it if they needed to switch. I doubt Nash would fare very well in that scenario.
Yeah great. The Suns lighting up the Clippers in 2007 really tells me they'd likely do the same thing against this Heat team! if your point is that the Suns had good shooters. Sure they did, do I think they'd get the looks they did against the league at large against the Heat in a series? Doubtful.
Yes I do.
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You brought up 2 different PHX teams...how am I supposed to know which one you refer to at any given time? :dunno:
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Looking at any stat has its flaws and benefits. Comparing the same 2 team statistics in two large sample-sizes is beneficial.
The point about Kurt Thomas was that he did play a good share of minutes when the pace slowed down.
Miami couldn't play the way they did vs.OKC as against the '07 Suns. Amare was too dominant of an interior score while OKC is a jump-shooting team. They would need to use someone else guarding Amare than LBJ. Miami would need to play much bigger than they did.
Also, Marion as an option to guard LBJ is pretty good. So is Bell guarding Wade.
The point about Kurt Thomas was that he did play a good share of minutes when the pace slowed down.
Miami couldn't play the way they did vs.OKC as against the '07 Suns. Amare was too dominant of an interior score while OKC is a jump-shooting team. They would need to use someone else guarding Amare than LBJ. Miami would need to play much bigger than they did.
Also, Marion as an option to guard LBJ is pretty good. So is Bell guarding Wade.
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It's all good. That is why I wanted to separate both of them.
It is fair game to critic both. I do believe that the '05 Suns would have beaten the '12 Heat as well.
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And PHX wasn't a jump shooting team? Their only inside presence is Amare. Granted, that's a pretty darn good option, but literally every other player that played major minutes for them was pretty much shooting jump shots the whole game. Furthermore, PHX in 05 was a run and gun team. No reason to say that Miami couldn't play the way they did against OKC. I'd say even in 07 PHX still tried to play a somewhat uptempo game.
We all though Thabo was a good option to guard Wade...Wade seems to have done just fine regardless. Though again, I'll say Marion is probably a one of the better defenders you can put against Lebron because of his athleticism and decent length. Still, you can't stop Lebron. And heck, if Battier and Chalmers knocked down shots like they did against OKC, I'd say things look pretty good for Miami.