OT: Ranking the 30 Best NBA teams from 2000-'12

[FirstTimer]

The point about Kurt Thomas was that he did play a good share of minutes when the pace slowed down.

IIRC Thomas likely played less than 20mpg that season. You listing an old slow defender like Thomas who barely started and played less than two quarters on average as a "key" to the NBA Finals defending the interior against the Heat who really only played Bosh or James there with any meaning on offense is really hollow.

Amare was too dominant of an interior score

Amare has never been a dominant interior scorer. He's been a pick and pop guy his entire career. Like I already said, if the heat have ways to grind the pick and roll out..which they do..... the Suns are pretty fucked in the grander scheme of the series. The Heat have too many top defenders on the wing and Stoudemire as a result wouldn't get the "interior" looks he was used to getting off those pick and rolls. As one dimensional as the Heat are the Suns were too. The difference is The Heat have the weaponry to shut down the Suns Pick and Roll pretty efficiently...the Suns don't have that luxury on the other end of the floor.

Barbosa is a match up I could see hurting the Heat but at the end of the day I don't see Phoenix's defense being good enough to really make Barbosa's possible match up advantage matter much seeing as the heat have the weapons on the other end to go at him.

They would need to use someone else guarding Amare than LBJ. Miami would need to play much bigger than they did.

No they wouldn't. You act as though Amare was Patrick Ewing. He wasn't.

Also, Marion as an option to guard LBJ is pretty good.

So is Bell guarding Wade.

There's another issue. Keeping Bell on the floor(who isn't going to shut down Wade anyways so you're losing that matchup) Also helps to keep Barbosa off the floor. It's the same idea as the Thudner series. Ok, keep Sefolosha on the floor for defense...that helps limit Harden's minutes..put Harden on the floor and you lose on defense on Wade. Miami has two top tier players that can play on both ends at an elite level and another in Bosh that is at least a "plus" on both. Against a non balanced team like the Suns(not good on defense) it becomes a liability. Both coaches kind of suck so I'm not sure there's any real bench advantage either way.

I basically see the series playing out similarly to how this recent NBA Finals went. The Suns take a game or two but I'm picking the Heat to win it in 6. IMO the Suns don't have enough there to counter the different combos the Heat present on each end of the floor. The Suns are good at what they do but I think the Heat can dictate tempos and play styles better because of their talent level at the top of the roster better.

 

[FirstTimer]

And PHX wasn't a jump shooting team? Their only inside presence is Amare. Granted, that's a pretty darn good option, but literally every other player that played major minutes for them was pretty much shooting jump shots the whole game. Furthermore, PHX in 05 was a run and gun team. No reason to say that Miami couldn't play the way they did against OKC. I'd say even in 07 PHX still tried to play a somewhat uptempo game.

Don't confuse Amare dunking on people's heads and shooting layups of pick and rolls as really dominating the interior either. Amare isn't a back to the basket interior player. Most of the time when Amare starts out low it's to pop back out on a screen into a shot or pick and roll. There's a difference between being an "interior player" and being able to get into the lane from the wing based on the offensive system employed.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Don't confuse Amare dunking on people's heads and shooting layups of pick and rolls as really dominating the interior either. Amare isn't a back to the basket interior player. Most of the time when Amare starts out low it's to pop back out on a screen into a shot or pick and roll. There's a difference between being an "interior player" and being able to get into the lane from the wing based on the offensive system employed.

I do realize that. All the same, Amare is still their only "inside presence" and when your inside presence can only get inside shots off pick and rolls, that should tell you something about how good that team is inside. Regardless of how he scored his points, he was a 25+ ppg scorer shooting like 55% from the field and like 80% from the line, so that's still a factor.

 

[FirstTimer]

I do realize that. All the same, Amare is still their only "inside presence" and when your inside presence can only get inside shots off pick and rolls, that should tell you something about how good that team is inside. Regardless of how he scored his points, he was a 25+ ppg scorer shooting like 55% from the field and like 80% from the line, so that's still a factor.

Well it's obviously still a factor but the way Rami is phrasing this entire situation is making it seem like Amare plays with his back to the basket. He's kind of ignoring the entire way Amare got to the interior to start with..which is a pretty important aspect to look at.

 

[FirstTimer]

FWIW, if I was ranking this Heat team. I'd rank them somewhere in the top 5-7 teams.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Well it's obviously still a factor but the way Rami is phrasing this entire situation is making it seem like Amare plays with his back to the basket. He's kind of ignoring the entire way Amare got to the interior to start with..which is a pretty important aspect to look at.

No, not really. I already gave Nash much of the credit. Amare Stoudemire was a threat in the pick-and-roll and had a nice face-up game when receiving the ball in the post.

He obviously wasn't Shaq or Ewing who could back you down all day but I didn't say that either. He was a guy who could get defenders in foul trouble (while getting into foul trouble on the other end at times too which was not in his favor).

 

[FirstTimer]

No, not really.

Actually yes really. You are.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

FWIW, if I was ranking this Heat team. I'd rank them somewhere in the top 5-7 teams.

They have the talent of being a top 3 team on this list. I just don't believe that they are playing to their potential.

If you look at the top 50 or so teams of the 2000-2012 period, there are plenty of other teams that could have their say versus this Miami Heat team.

I don't think it is insulting them to say that they are in the top 30.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Actually yes really. You are.

When did I say Amare Stoudemire played like Shaq? He is an interior scoring presence like I said.

 

[FirstTimer]

When did I say Amare Stoudemire played like Shaq? He is an interior scoring presence like I said.

Except he isn't.

 

[FirstTimer]

They have the talent of being a top 3 team on this list. I just don't believe that they are playing to their potential.

If you look at the top 50 or so teams of the 2000-2012 period, there are plenty of other teams that could have their say versus this Miami Heat team.

You could say that about any team on this list with maybe the exception of that Lakers team that lost 1 game the entire playoffs.

Saying they are in the top 30 isn't so much an insult but it's pretty stupid to have most of the team you have in front of them sitting there. The 2004 Indiana Pacers?

:rofl:

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Except he isn't.

Oh, come on, of course he is. The guy is very capable of receiving the ball a little bit higher in the post and facing up to score.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

You could say that about any team on this list with maybe the exception of that Lakers team that lost 1 game the entire playoffs.

Saying they are in the top 30 isn't so much an insult but it's pretty stupid to have most of the team you have in front of them sitting there. The 2004 Indiana Pacers?

:rofl:

Obviously the Pacers didn't have LeBron James. But Jermaine O'Neal was a legitimate star player and had a balanced, fundamentally-sound offense. 4-12, the Indiana Pacers were much better than the Heat.

 

[FirstTimer]

The guy is very capable of receiving the ball a little bit higher in the post and facing up to score.

So are a lot of NBA players.

Big whoop.

Amare Stoudemire is not an "interior presence". Dude's a pick and pop floaty 4. He's good off the bounce going to the lane. But that doesn't mean he's any real threat in an "interior" sense. You need an atheltic 4 to defend his driving and moving. Amare down low..is less of a concern than him at the high post.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

So are a lot of NBA players.

Big whoop.

Amare Stoudemire is not an "interior presence". Dude's a pick and pop floaty 4. He's good off the bounce going to the lane. But that doesn't mean he's any real threat in an "interior" sense. You need an atheltic 4 to defend his driving and moving. Amare down low..is less of a concern than him at the high post.

That is a good point. There are a lot of great face-up scorers in the NBA but Amare Stoudemire was the best interior face-up score in the NBA and it is fair to say that he is even better than LeBron James has become in that aspect (and LBJ is surely a great interior scorer).

 

[FirstTimer]

Obviously the Pacers didn't have LeBron James. But Jermaine O'Neal was a legitimate star player and had a balanced, fundamentally-sound offense. 4-12, the Indiana Pacers were much better than the Heat.

No they weren't. I'm sure the Pacers win some matchups there but the gap at the top is REALLY wide...like cavernously wide. That Pacers team gets their shit pushed hard.

This has been explained to you ad nauseum about playoff basketball. In the playoffs the top end of the roster matters much more than the bottom half. You backing up your claim that the Pacers were better because in part Austin Croshere>James Jones is pretty fucking stupid and runs counter to the way playoff series are usually played and rotated.

 

[FirstTimer]

There are a lot of great face-up scorers in the NBA but Amare Stoudemire was the best interior face-up score in the NBA

Because of the system..which as I've already laid out...the Heat had the available players to help grind out. You take away the way the Suns got Amare looks..and you mitigate his pluses.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

No they weren't. I'm sure the Pacers win some matchups there but the gap at the top is REALLY wide...like cavernously wide. That Pacers team gets their shit pushed hard.

This has been explained to you ad nauseum about playoff basketball. In the playoffs the top end of the roster matters much more than the bottom half. You backing up your claim that the Pacers were better because in part Austin Croshere>James Jones is pretty fucking stupid and runs counter to the way playoff series are usually played and rotated.

I agree that the talent at the top isn't even comparable. Still, I just don't think Miami is well-suited to go up against a coach who makes adjustments as well as Rick Carlisle.

Which team would I rather have long-term? Miami. Which do I think would win the first series between the two? Indiana. But it would be a dog-fight.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Because of the system..which as I've already laid out...the Heat had the available players to help grind out. You take away the way the Suns got Amare looks..and you mitigate his pluses.

I think you are ignoring how effective Amare Stoudemire could be when you threw him the ball in the high-post and allowed him to face-up and handle the ball and spin and overpower and finish at the rim.

Yes, Amare Stoudemire's greatest asset was Steve Nash and the floor spacing they had. But he was in his offensive prime back in 2007 and had a lot of quickness/explosiveness that he has started to lose in the years since.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

one thing i think that is important that hasn't been discussed is rebounding

the suns were a pretty bad rebounding team with nash and having no real center

the tandem of wade,lebron,and bosh would eat up offensive boards

especially because one of their best rebounders,amare, is often away from the post

then you got work horses like haslem who are good for some timely rebounds