Rodman: Derrick can't win by himself

[houheffna]

Agreed. If James stopped Rose by himself then I guess that means Marion stopped James by himself.

James shut down James...nobody else impeded his abilities more than he did himself. No need to call Lebron a quitter if he didn't quit. I haven't heard anyone call Magic and Rose quitters...

 

[Glide2keva]

The lakers never used the piick and roll. And even if they did, not as much as thibs did. Besides. Pippen really only guarded magic in game 2. After jordan got in foul trouble.

I'm trying to look through some youtube vids to see if I can find the actual games. Not just highlights. And Ill find them. But it won't matter cuz heff is stuck in his ways.

They have the series on DVD.

 

[Glide2keva]

The lebron james defense force is going hard in the paint defending his idol.

Just so we know, no one can shut down james, only he has the power to do it. lebron though can shut down Rose. Even when he has help and his teammates trap him constantly, it was lebron by himself that did it. Not the help defense, lebron, by himself. I wonder who this Bulls "fan" was actually rooting for?

Let's not forget that this was the same Bulls "fan" that told us to "face facts" and then proceeded to give his opinion on why lebron was the MVP and not Rose. Boy was he wrong on that one?

Then let's not also forget that this Bulls "fan" asked us to be objective after the ECF series. Like Miami winning was a good thing or something.

For all parties concerned, you're arguing with a lebron fan, not a Bulls fan.

Great job Hou

 

[houheffna]

The lebron james defense force is going hard in the paint defending his idol.

Just so we know, no one can shut down james, only he has the power to do it. lebron though can shut down Rose. Even when he has help and his teammates trap him constantly, it was lebron by himself that did it. Not the help defense, lebron, by himself. I wonder who this Bulls "fan" was actually rooting for?

Let's not forget that this was the same Bulls "fan" that told us to "face facts" and then proceeded to give his opinion on why lebron was the MVP and not Rose. Boy was he wrong on that one?

Then let's not also forget that this Bulls "fan" asked us to be objective after the ECF series. Like Miami winning was a good thing or something.

For all parties concerned, you're arguing with a lebron fan, not a Bulls fan.

Great job Hou

You never completed that homework assignment on the origin of the term "point forward"...learn some history of the sport. Being a shoe shine boy at the stadium in the early 1990's doesn't make you any more of a Bulls fan or and more enlightened than anyone else on this forum.

Please come up with an original thought...you spent weeks as the one man "hallelujah choir" for that idiot Lex...now that he is gone, your act is kind of like watching Penn without Teller...

Being a fanboy at 42 years old must be a miserable existence.


You call other people trolls, how is your act of constantly following my every move and commenting, not on the subject, but on my having a thought at all...NOT trolling?

Your only opinion is "Houheffna sucks"...I mean, it would be nice if you had something to say other than whine when the Bulls lose.

 

[97Bulls]

James shut down James...nobody else impeded his abilities more than he did himself. No need to call Lebron a quitter if he didn't quit. I haven't heard anyone call Magic and Rose quitters...

If this is the case then it doesn't say much for james.

I never called james a quitter. Marion did have help on him. But he was the main guy defending him.

But in the bulls/heat series the way the heat defended rose was to trap the pick and roll. And the bulls ran that play about 70% of the series.

 

[houheffna]

If this is the case then it doesn't say much for james.

I never called james a quitter. Marion did have help on him. But he was the main guy defending him.

But in the bulls/heat series the way the heat defended rose was to trap the pick and roll. And the bulls ran that play about 70% of the series.

Again, with emphasis...when James guarded Rose, he shut Rose down. The only effective pick and roll combination early was Rose/Korver. After game 2, Rose was unable to do what he does best because James shut him down. The whole world knows that. This pick and roll stuff you are talking about is totally irrelevant to the point. When Lebron wasn't guarding Rose, Rose didn't maximize the opportunities.

I called James a quitter because he stopped playing aggressively. That had nothing to do with Marion. Marion is totally incapable of shutting Lebron down. When Lebron wanted to, he was able to score...does anybody on this thread really believe a 40 year old Kidd could stop Lebron James? Come on man...

Quit may be a strong word...but he mentally took a back seat to Wade to the point that he lost his aggressiveness. But it had little to do with Dallas, just as it had very little to do with Boston the year before...

 

[Glide2keva]

If this is the case then it doesn't say much for james.

I never called james a quitter. Marion did have help on him. But he was the main guy defending him.

But in the bulls/heat series the way the heat defended rose was to trap the pick and roll. And the bulls ran that play about 70% of the series.

No lebron's awesomeness was enough to shut down Rose. lebron is the Chuck Norris of the NBA.

You may not call him a quitter, but I will. As I've said before, he's a show boater and a hot dog. If he can't show boat and hot dog and grand stand, then he isn't going to be effective. He wants everything to be easy. He wants to just waltz to a ring and it isn't that easy. He's got people giving him championships and he has only won 2 NBA Finals games. 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7, 2. That's it. And those 2 came with him as the second banana. He couldn't win one game as the lead dog.

All he is to me is a stat padding, glory fiend that can't win the big one or even show up during winning time on the biggest stage.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

No lebron's awesomeness was enough to shut down Rose. lebron is the Chuck Norris of the NBA.

You may not call him a quitter, but I will. As I've said before, he's a show boater and a hot dog. If he can't show boat and hot dog and grand stand, then he isn't going to be effective. He wants everything to be easy. He wants to just waltz to a ring and it isn't that easy. He's got people giving him championships and he has only won 2 NBA Finals games. 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7, 2. That's it. And those 2 came with him as the second banana. He couldn't win one game as the lead dog.

All he is to me is a stat padding, glory fiend that can't win the big one or even show up during winning time on the biggest stage.

i'm somewhere in between you guys

i feel lebron actually doesnt like the spotlight in the finals especially under pressure for whatever reason....i saw it time and time again in this year's finals(giving up open shots...not being assertive at all)....he did play very well in the ECF tho and the issue is him not necessarily having issues with the playoffs overall(because he doesnt)...its the finals

lebron is arguably one of the most talented and best players on the planet...he's 6'8 270...fast as a race horse...can pass and handle like PG....unreal ability..just look what happened to cleveland after he left..his impact is unquestionable

that said, lebron also has not put in time to develop a post game(which would have been crucial against dallas imo)..which has really hindered his improvement especially in some situations..he could be even better than he is

lebron is a great defender too, lets not forget that...he did a good job on rose in isos..now was it just lebron that shut down rose? no it was the whole miami defensive scheme,not to mention fatigue, and relative lack of support...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Hou, you left the part out where LeBron James didn't just stop himself by checking out mentally (he even 'checked out' when Wade was hurt and they desperately needed James to step up). He checked out because of other reasons, too. Look at what happened when he was with the Cavaliers against the Boston defense. He did the SAME EXACT THING. He does want to be an Oscar/Magic type of player. But you better believe that if he COULD score at will, or get to the line at will, he would. He's simply not a very versatile scorer in the half-court set and is EASY to slow down and make settle for contested jumpers.

And the only times he shut down Rose was for two isolation possessions in Game 4

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyllINeA46U]MVP D-Rose CHOKES horribly vs the Heat in ECF Game 4 - YouTube[/ame]

And James wasn't the one guarding Rose for most of the series.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Rose is actually a lot like a much shorter LeBron James in a lot of ways. But I still don't blame him for the Heat beating the Bulls. Rose needed more help against the Heat defense and LeBron James had too many options to go to.

 

[houheffna]

Hou, you left the part out where LeBron James didn't just stop himself by checking out mentally (he even 'checked out' when Wade was hurt and they desperately needed James to step up). He checked out because of other reasons, too. Look at what happened when he was with the Cavaliers against the Boston defense. He did the SAME EXACT THING. He does want to be an Oscar/Magic type of player. But you better believe that if he COULD score at will, or get to the line at will, he would. He's simply not a very versatile scorer in the half-court set and is EASY to slow down and make settle for contested jumpers.

And the only times he shut down Rose was for two isolation possessions in Game 4

MVP D-Rose CHOKES horribly vs the Heat in ECF Game 4 - YouTube

And James wasn't the one guarding Rose for most of the series.

I don't think Jason Kidd could stop Magic, and I don't think Kidd at this age could stop Lebron. Lebron wasn't inefficient in that series...he had a harder time scoring against the Bulls than he did against the Mavs. He stopped shooting, he stopped trying. That's all, that's it. When it got tougher, he cowered. With the skills he had, he was still the best player in the league, he was still virtually unstoppable.

If you think James shut down Rose for two plays, you have a lot more youtube to watch, including game 5 when Lebron pretty much shut Rose down.

James was the number one option offensively in that series, so guarding Rose for 40 minutes wouldn't be smart for him to do. I never said that he played Rose the whole game...I keep stressing...WHEN he guarded him, he shut him down...

This is not about being a Lebron fan, this is about the truth. That is what happened. Lebron got into Rose's head mentally and being much bigger, taller and about as fast, he caused a lot of issues for Rose.

Do you really think all of those publications and commentators talk about how Lebron owned Rose based on two plays alone? People were comparing that battle to Olajuwon/Robinson in 1995. I was on twitter arguing with people about Rose needing to "give the MVP back to its rightful owner"...

That kind of talk doesn't come from just 2 plays...

 

[Glide2keva]

Hou, you left the part out where LeBron James didn't just stop himself by checking out mentally (he even 'checked out' when Wade was hurt and they desperately needed James to step up). He checked out because of other reasons, too. Look at what happened when he was with the Cavaliers against the Boston defense. He did the SAME EXACT THING. He does want to be an Oscar/Magic type of player. But you better believe that if he COULD score at will, or get to the line at will, he would. He's simply not a very versatile scorer in the half-court set and is EASY to slow down and make settle for contested jumpers.

And the only times he shut down Rose was for two isolation possessions in Game 4

MVP D-Rose CHOKES horribly vs the Heat in ECF Game 4 - YouTube

And James wasn't the one guarding Rose for most of the series.

Well to him, lebron can do no wrong, just face facts.

 

[DCguy]

LeBron and his help side defense defended Rose well. But so did Chalmers, Wade, and even Bibby with all having the aid of help side defense. Whenever LeBron does something well it gets exaggerated. He did not shut Rose down on his own, he had help from Haslem and Anthony.

 

[Glide2keva]

LeBron and his help side defense defended Rose well. But so did Chalmers, Wade, and even Bibby with all having the aid of help side defense. Whenever LeBron does something well it gets exaggerated. He did not shut Rose down on his own, he had help from Haslem and Anthony.

I hear you. The lebron hype is out of control. Giving the MVP back to it's rightful owner? No real Bulls fan would say that shit.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I hear you. The lebron hype is out of control. Giving the MVP back to it's rightful owner? No real Bulls fan would say that shit.

again,i am somewhere in between the conflict argument(my own opinion i dont always want to be 100% in the middle)

lebron james is a very,very good defender....and arguably is the talented and maybe the best player in the world....

however...as has been said a bunch in this thread

lebron did well against rose in some iso situations,but he himself did not completely shut down rose...

it was miami's strategy,help D,rose's fatigue and lack of support

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I don't think Jason Kidd could stop Magic, and I don't think Kidd at this age could stop Lebron. Lebron wasn't inefficient in that series...he had a harder time scoring against the Bulls than he did against the Mavs. He stopped shooting, he stopped trying. That's all, that's it. When it got tougher, he cowered. With the skills he had, he was still the best player in the league, he was still virtually unstoppable.

If you think James shut down Rose for two plays, you have a lot more youtube to watch, including game 5 when Lebron pretty much shut Rose down.

James was the number one option offensively in that series, so guarding Rose for 40 minutes wouldn't be smart for him to do. I never said that he played Rose the whole game...I keep stressing...WHEN he guarded him, he shut him down...

This is not about being a Lebron fan, this is about the truth. That is what happened. Lebron got into Rose's head mentally and being much bigger, taller and about as fast, he caused a lot of issues for Rose.

Do you really think all of those publications and commentators talk about how Lebron owned Rose based on two plays alone? People were comparing that battle to Olajuwon/Robinson in 1995. I was on twitter arguing with people about Rose needing to "give the MVP back to its rightful owner"...

That kind of talk doesn't come from just 2 plays...

LeBron can shut down Rose one-on-one in a five-on-five game. But LeBron had help because he always had a secondary defender waiting for Rose at the time. LeBron did the best job on Rose out of anybody, but he can't shut him down. How many times did he guard him... 15-20 times out of the entire series? And Rose probably shot like 1-of-15 during the times LeBron did defend him.

Hakeem was just a monster defensive player and nothing else needs to be said about that. LeBron is far from what Olajuwon was defensively. That comparison is a little bit unfair because Olajuwon guarded Robinson for that entire series and that entire Game 1 or 2 in the 1995 WCF where he destroyed David Robinson. Robinson was simply outmatched that series and couldn't deal with guarding Hakeem and then trying to defend him on the other end.

I know Kidd or Marion or Deng can't stop James one-on-one. But they didn't need to do it one-on-one... they had help. It's true that LeBron had a tougher time against the Bulls' defense than the Mavs. But that is because the Mavs' defense simply isn't as good as the Bulls'.

And in the end of that final Game 5 in Chicago, the reason LeBron James went off the way he did was because Luol Deng was in foul trouble. So they put Deng on Chalmers, Rose on Wade, and Brewer on James. That allowed Wade to snap his cold streak and go off on Rose. And that is what allowed James to shoot and hit shots at will; Ronnie is nowhere near as long or as good of a ball-defender as Luol.

So the Heat were able to come back from like 12 down in the last three minutes and win.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And there are plenty of players who I trust more than LeBron James to score with lots of defensive attention on them:

Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant, Kobe Bryant, and even Dwyane Wade.

 

[97Bulls]

I think rami and code summarized it best. It wasa combination of things that led to roses bad shooting. James ability as heff said, the heats strategy, the lack of a secondary player capable of getting his own shot from the perimeter, the coaches not making adjustments according to counter the heats strategy. All those things helped the bulls demise.

And definately wasn't just james. I think heff is basing his summary of the whole series off of those 2 plays where james does D-up rose 1v1. But that's really doesn't tell the whole story.

When heff says that rose shot worse when james was defending him, well that's not saying much cuz he shot terrible overall. Its like a student bragging to another student cuz he got a D- instead of an F.

 

[houheffna]

And there are plenty of players who I trust more than LeBron James to score with lots of defensive attention on them:

Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant, Kobe Bryant, and even Dwyane Wade.

First let me clear some things up. I NEVER said give the MVP back to James...I said I had arguments on twitter with people who felt that way. Those arguments don't take place if Lebron didn't dominate that series.

The same dude that stalks my every move and likes to talk about what a real Bulls fan wouldn't do and wouldn't say...should go back to my twitter account and check out the arguments I had with another gentleman about the subject.

By the way, its easy to talk about what a Bulls fan will and won't do. Real Bulls fans I know use common sense, and don't blame the refs, or the commissioner for the Bulls play. I watched you whine for weeks during that series...real Bulls fans grow up, man up, except the wins and the losses, and hope for the best in the future. You being 40 years old or whatever, you should know better, but you led the parade of excuse making. So you should be the LAST person lecturing on what a real fan is all about. You are NO different from the Ben Gordon group I dealt with in the past...no different. You stated that the Bulls were the better team but the league wanted them to lose....wrong, and lacking common sense.

My point was Marion and Kidd can't stop Lebron James, I stand by that. Against the Bulls, he was the best player on the floor......on both sides of the floor for Miami. I predicted the Heat would win, I hoped they would lose...just as I wanted the Heat to lose in the Finals. I have never rooted for Lebron to win anything, and I don't care much for Wade. All of this is documented right here in this forum. Micheal Jordan told Derrick Rose to man up and get his shit together after that series...funny I didn't hear about MJ texting Rose saying, "those damn refs....". I am sure Rose is following that advice as needed. I wish some so called hardcore Bulls fans would to. This is fandom, not a religion, I have free will to think and feel as I want, if you don't like it, put me back on block and ignore my statements, which is what you asked EVERYBODY else on this forum to do over and over again. Get over your obsession with my thoughts...

Now back to reasonable, intelligent Bulls fans...

Lebron guarded Rose more than 20 times in the last 2 games combined. During critical moments Lebron shut him down...that is exactly what happened. The team had enough success against Rose that Lebron didn't have to guard Rose continuously. Had he guarded Rose for 40 minutes, Lebron would have been less effective offensively, I don't think he has the stamina to chase Rose around and then to score on the best defense in the league in my opinion. But it was that performance...on both sides of the ball, that led to what Pippen stated and what everybody should have been watching...and that was Lebron dominate that matchup and that series.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

^You do realize you were responding to me and not Glide there, right?

Regardless, comparing what James did to Rose down-the-stretch of a couple of games to what Olajuwon did to David Robinson doesn't quite parallel- despite what some "expert analysts" insist on saying.