Rodman: Derrick can't win by himself

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And defense generally becomes better as playoff series go forward because coaches learn how to make adjustments as the amount of time played goes forth. The Heat and Bulls both made adjustments. Haslem and Mike Miller became offensive options after game 1 and helped even the Heat even the rebounding margin. The Bulls offense was shut down after game 1 because even Spoelstra knew how limited the Bulls are when Rose is unable to be mobile. They still NEEDED to have Rose force plays because he is by far their best decision maker and play-maker regardless of whether he is passing or scoring. And since scoring is the easiest way for the Bulls to score, he took 25ish shots per-game and tried to get hot. That was the Bulls' best chance to win and it didn't end up panning out. Blaming Rose seems highly irrational to me because of that.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Wasn't Boozer injured at that time?

Yeah, but during the first couple of games, they were trying to force-feed Boozer in the low-post against Indiana and as a result of the turnovers... Indiana almost stole the first two games until Thibodeau scrapped that plan.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

The Bulls were exposed in the playoffs because they went up against a team with more depth than the Bulls (Pacers) and a team with four guys who can all create their own shot (the Hawks). They needed Rose to take over games. The Bulls couldn't have beaten the Hawks if they didn't put the ball in Rose's hands. The Pacers series was hard fought mainly because Boozer just botched the entire thing.

not to mention lack of 3 point shooting..and also something i forgot to add in my first post of this thread lack of facilitators(i.e. making the extra pass..running the offense well..and overall not having another guy besides rose that can set up teammates..noah can a little) and facilitating overall imo(i still believe in a little more of a balance between rose creating for others passing wise and rose creating for himself...a good example is chris paul...)

 

[DCguy]

The Bulls were exposed in the playoffs because they went up against a team with more depth than the Bulls (Pacers) and a team with four guys who can all create their own shot (the Hawks). They needed Rose to take over games. The Bulls couldn't have beaten the Hawks if they didn't put the ball in Rose's hands. The Pacers series was hard fought mainly because Boozer just botched the entire thing.

Well in the Pacers series that's when Boozer initially suffered the turf toe so it was hard for him to move. The way I think the offense was designed, it made some of the players stand around and watch Rose. He is a supreme talent but Thibs used the other guys more creatively before. I just felt he should have continued that. Especially going to more Boozer post ups and letting him initiate some offense.

 

[houheffna]

not to mention lack of 3 point shooting..and also something i forgot to add in my first post of this thread lack of facilitators(i.e. making the extra pass..running the offense well..and overall not having another guy besides rose that can set up teammates..noah can a little) and facilitating overall imo(i still believe in a little more of a balance between rose creating for others passing wise and rose creating for himself...a good example is chris paul...)

Looking at who you used as an example (Chris Paul) is the main reason I continue to stress that while Rose is the best player in the league at the position, he is not the best PG in the sense of the doesn't have the ability yet to facilitate as well as Paul or Deron Williams can. He is the best player though...I think I confuse some people with that...lol

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Exactly, they would have still went for the double team, but without the pick and roll being involved, they would have had someone just straight run at him to catch him off guard. Rose reacted better than that. I'm basically saying Thibs should have just scrapped the pick and roll and went with the ball movement approach. I think CJ and Brewer could have done a little off the dribble to help Rose out more in my opinion.

I think C.J. should have been out there with Rose to help him out and I wouldn't have played Korver nearly at all. It is true that the Bulls needed some ball movement but the problem with that is I believe that could play right into Miami's hands because they have a team full of guys who get steals in the passing lanes. And even if you do manage to swing the ball to the other side, the result is more than likely going to be a contested shot by someone other than Rose... which will more than likely result in a miss... which will very likely result in a long rebound... which will also result in sparking Miami's amazing transition game.

Thibodeau minimized Miami's fast-break game in the ECF. If he didn't... the Bulls probably would have gotten blown out every night. He gave them a chance to win every game in the closing minutes and that's all you can reasonable ask for. That's all Phil Jackson and Tex Winter ever did too.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Looking at who you used as an example (Chris Paul) is the main reason I continue to stress that while Rose is the best player in the league at the position, he is not the best PG in the sense of the doesn't have the ability yet to facilitate as well as Paul or Deron Williams can. He is the best player though...I think I confuse some people with that...lol

ya i think that besides his 3 point shot is something he can work on..

rose may be one of the best if not the best player in the league...but i'm thinking purely by PG standards...chris paul(or deron williams..but what i saw of CP3 against the lakers made me realize that despite some of the injuries..he may still be the best) is still the best because he does everything required of the PG position and does it well...

 

[DCguy]

And defense generally becomes better as playoff series go forward because coaches learn how to make adjustments as the amount of time played goes forth. The Heat and Bulls both made adjustments. Haslem and Mike Miller became offensive options after game 1 and helped even the Heat even the rebounding margin. The Bulls offense was shut down after game 1 because even Spoelstra knew how limited the Bulls are when Rose is unable to be mobile. They still NEEDED to have Rose force plays because he is by far their best decision maker and play-maker regardless of whether he is passing or scoring. And since scoring is the easiest way for the Bulls to score, he took 25ish shots per-game and tried to get hot. That was the Bulls' best chance to win and it didn't end up panning out. Blaming Rose seems highly irrational to me because of that.

I don't think anyone is blaming Rose or anybody in particular. But I think saying Rose gets no blame is unfair. He gets the credit if the team wins, but none if they lose? They win as a team and lose as a team. Everyone could have done something better to turn those losses to wins, that's why I think everyone should equally be blamed. But they all played hard so I can live with that. They went down swinging.

 

[DCguy]

I think C.J. should have been out there with Rose to help him out and I wouldn't have played Korver nearly at all. It is true that the Bulls needed some ball movement but the problem with that is I believe that could play right into Miami's hands because they have a team full of guys who get steals in the passing lanes. And even if you do manage to swing the ball to the other side, the result is more than likely going to be a contested shot by someone other than Rose... which will more than likely result in a miss... which will very likely result in a long rebound... which will also result in sparking Miami's amazing transition game.

Thibodeau minimized Miami's fast-break game in the ECF. If he didn't... the Bulls probably would have gotten blown out every night. He gave them a chance to win every game in the closing minutes and that's all you can reasonable ask for. That's all Phil Jackson and Tex Winter ever did too.

I agree, I'm just saying in a nutshell that I wish we had went away from so many pick and rolls. I mixture of everything I believe would have helped some.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I don't think anyone is blaming Rose or anybody in particular. But I think saying Rose gets no blame is unfair. He gets the credit if the team wins, but none if they lose? They win as a team and lose as a team. Everyone could have done something better to turn those losses to wins, that's why I think everyone should equally be blamed. But they all played hard so I can live with that. They went down swinging.

The only thing you can blame Rose for is not being good enough to beat a team made up of great defenders who have versatile scorers like Wade, James, and Bosh.

He gave them a chance... that is all you can be expected to do. Thibodeau did too and it is easy to look in hindsight and dish out blame. But they both did the right things at the time to give them the best chance at winning. If anybody but Rose was their best player and anybody but Thibodeau was their coach, that series is a sweep and the Bulls lose each game by at least 20.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I agree, I'm just saying in a nutshell that I wish we had went away from so many pick and rolls. I mixture of everything I believe would have helped some.

Well, that is pretty much what they did though. It was a mixture of everything. I think throwing the ball to Noah on the majority of plays really was the best thing they could have done offensively because Rose was trapped nearly every time, regardless of whether a screen was set or not. And Noah get 6 assists a couple of games too.

 

[97Bulls]

the rose fault comment was not directed towards anyone specific but i did hear the comment on this thread that rose deserved no blame for losing the ECF and that simply is not true...

i disagree a little about blaming the coaches first...sometimes the coaches do make mistakes in running a play that didnt fit in correspondence to the lineup...or not giving rose opportunities to create for himself or others..although quit a bit in that series rose was doing iso which in many cases how iso is ran is more heavily dependent on the player running the iso then the structure of the play or the coach who calls the play
he did run isos for rose. But rose just looked tired. I think the beatings he took from atlanta and mostly indiana in the first few rounds wore on him. There really may not have been much thibs could've done if rose just doesn't have it. I know heff credit james. And that's true to a ceraain extent but truth be told, there were a lot of factors that played into hiw bad rose shot. Not just james defense.


dont disagree with that at all.. although i think in this day and age you also need to have good 3 point shooting to have a balanced offensive attack..thats what really helped dallas..i wouldnt say they had a great #2 or #3 option(terry is a spotty guy and marion isnt a 20 point scorer anymore) but they did run their offense very well and could score inside the paint area with a dirk shot or tyson chandler inside or whatever..AND they could go outside..the defense cant necessarily focus totally on one area of the floor

but i certainly think its important to have another guy who can consistently score when needed as a #2...and a #3 who can do a bit of the same

Again, I agree. You just took it a step further. You should be the GM. There's different ways to skin a cat. Outside shooting will get it done too. I'm just more basing it off of what I think is more feasible for the bulls right now. They really need some shooters to surround rose with. But that would mean a huge upheave of players.

 

[DCguy]

Well, that is pretty much what they did though. It was a mixture of everything. I think throwing the ball to Noah on the majority of plays really was the best thing they could have done offensively because Rose was trapped nearly every time, regardless of whether a screen was set or not. And Noah get 6 assists a couple of games too.

Yeah Noah did a nice job setting people up offensively. It surprised me a little. I went from hating Noah to becoming a big fan of the guy lol.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

he did run isos for rose. But rose just looked tired. I think the beatings he took from atlanta and mostly indiana in the first few rounds wore on him. There really may not have been much thibs could've done if rose just doesn't have it. I know heff credit james. And that's true to a ceraain extent but truth be told, there were a lot of factors that played into hiw bad rose shot. Not just james defense.

i agree with that...i wouldnt say rose was completely worn out from the other series(considering he did get a reasonable amount of break time between series and games...and he's 22 and peaking athletically..

but i do think you're right there are more factors than just jame's defense(which i do credit is very, very good...but you have to remember that james did do a good job on rose..but the miami defense as a unit also did a good job against rose..its not always individual matchups that make the biggest difference)

didnt oprah's last episode delay the ECF? i think that might have hurt the bulls a little momentum wise and also helps spoelstra and miami re structure their defensive game plan

not a huge incident of note..still..i wonder how much of an effect that made

Again, I agree. You just took it a step further. You should be the GM. There's different ways to skin a cat. Outside shooting will get it done too. I'm just more basing it off of what I think is more feasible for the bulls right now. They really need some shooters to surround rose with. But that would mean a huge upheave of players.

lol thanks for the compliment but i would never want to be a gm lol..thats a position where you have to really manage money well and be able to take criticism..especially if you make a mistake

 

[97Bulls]

The only thing you can blame Rose for is not being good enough to beat a team made up of great defenders who have versatile scorers like Wade, James, and Bosh.

He gave them a chance... that is all you can be expected to do. Thibodeau did too and it is easy to look in hindsight and dish out blame. But they both did the right things at the time to give them the best chance at winning. If anybody but Rose was their best player and anybody but Thibodeau was their coach, that series is a sweep and the Bulls lose each game by at least 20.

That's not all we can blame rose for. Its not as if he were shooting any better than anyone else on the team. Maybe they all should've stopped shooting then.

I'm not even saying rose is at fault for the bulls loss due to his shooting. Its how the shots came about. The forcing. The bad decisions etc. I could see rose taking a lot of shots if he were making them. But he shot worse than anybody. And a lot of that was cuz he forced the issue. And thibs put them all in bad positions.

 

[DCguy]

That's not all we can blame rose for. Its not as if he were shooting any better than anyone else on the team. Maybe they all should've stopped shooting then.

I'm not even saying rose is at fault for the bulls loss due to his shooting. Its how the shots came about. The forcing. The bad decisions etc. I could see rose taking a lot of shots if he were making them. But he shot worse than anybody. And a lot of that was cuz he forced the issue. And thibs put them all in bad positions.

Well said, my exact feelings.

 

[CubbyBear2290]

He is correct about that, but in my mind he still isn't in the hall of fame, nor should have he ever been voted in.....just my take, but he is 100% correct on this matter.

 

[Uman85]

If Jordan and Kobe couldn't win on their own, Rose can't either.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

That's not all we can blame rose for. Its not as if he were shooting any better than anyone else on the team. Maybe they all should've stopped shooting then.

I'm not even saying rose is at fault for the bulls loss due to his shooting. Its how the shots came about. The forcing. The bad decisions etc. I could see rose taking a lot of shots if he were making them. But he shot worse than anybody. And a lot of that was cuz he forced the issue. And thibs put them all in bad positions.

Thibs did what he had to do to limit turnovers thereby stopping Miami's transition offense. Rose had to take bad/difficult shots because that was the Bulls' best chance to beat the Heat.

If Jordan didn't have Pippen in '92 or '93, would it have been his fault that the Bulls lost against the Knicks? It's the same story with Rose losing to the Heat without a second play-maker. He's not at fault. If Joe Johnson, for instance, was Rose's teammates, points would come 500% easier for Rose and those other 3 guys. Bogans/Brewer/Korver just doesn't work.

The only thing I will blame Thibs for is playing Korver instead of Watson.

 

[TheChicagoFan]

Rodman's right. He is just like Jordan before he had Pippen. Rose needs a guy like Pippen to help spread the court. It will make Rose better and it will make the team better.