Rodman: Derrick can't win by himself

RamiTheBullsFan

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Very true rami. But thibs needs to implement an offense that will expose the players strengths. And as we all know, the bulls need another guy that can create his own shot.

The Heat defense is pretty much too good for the Bulls' offense no matter which way you slice it though. Korver cannot get open looks and is one-dimensional and easy to defend because James, Wade, Bosh, and Chalmers are all great at closing out on shooters. Brewer has little offense and you can sag all the way off of him. Deng depends largely on Rose and cannot deal with a guy like Wade or James guarding him. He can't create for himself and all he can do very well on offense is that wide open uncontested jump-shot. Noah is decent at everything for his size but he is not a great offensive player at all. Asik speaks for itself. Gibson most lives on pick and pops and put-backs. Boozer was a turnover machine.

I really don't think Thibodeau could have done much more to make them a better offensive team. He could have left Noah in instead of Asik but, I hate to say it... Noah is soft. He was emotionally spent and was psychological out of it after he made mistakes. Defense comes easier for Asik.
 

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There was NOTHING wrong with that defense...except for when Asik was hurt, Miami could do nothing with that defense. Look at Wade's numbers against the Bulls compared to the rest of the playoffs...they shut him down.

James did the same thing to Rose that Pippen used to do to point guards in the 1990's...of course someone steps up, IF Rose gets past Lebron...but Rose didn't get past Lebron.

Lebron > Rose is the main reason the Bulls lost that series. Period. Its not Thibs fault that guys missed open shots and didn't take advantage of the situation when they should have. You can't make something from nothing, they have to get personnel that can do what is needed offensively. Defense wasn't the problem. You are totally wrong about that. All season the Bulls defense stepped up when they struggled offensively. They had the best defense in the league.

Deng didn't fall asleep, Deng was busy guarding the best player in the league and did a pretty good job. To expect him to then score 25 points a night while guarding Lebron is too much.
I think someone needs to tell that to Fred Pfeiffer lol
 

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The Heat defense is pretty much too good for the Bulls' offense no matter which way you slice it though. Korver cannot get open looks and is one-dimensional and easy to defend because James, Wade, Bosh, and Chalmers are all great at closing out on shooters. Brewer has little offense and you can sag all the way off of him. Deng depends largely on Rose and cannot deal with a guy like Wade or James guarding him. He can't create for himself and all he can do very well on offense is that wide open uncontested jump-shot. Noah is decent at everything for his size but he is not a great offensive player at all. Asik speaks for itself. Gibson most lives on pick and pops and put-backs. Boozer was a turnover machine.

I really don't think Thibodeau could have done much more to make them a better offensive team. He could have left Noah in instead of Asik but, I hate to say it... Noah is soft. He was emotionally spent and was psychological out of it after he made mistakes. Defense comes easier for Asik.

What I believe Thibs could have done was to stop running the pick and roll. All the Heat did was trap Rose when that happened. If he would have stopped that it would have forced the Heat to be more creative with the double teams and Rose would have had a chance to see it coming more and make the appropriate play to combat that.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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It was mostly the ankle that kept Noah out of the game and frustrating him though. He may have been upset and spent emotionally but at least he was more solid than Boozer.
 

97Bulls

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Noah really isn't at much fault in all of this. The reason Noah spent much of the time off of the offensive boards is because he was sadly the second best playmaker on the floor for the Bulls at the time. Boozer was expected to be the guy Rose dished it off to when he was double-teamed but that did not turn out to be a good option.

Thibodeau felt like putting in Asik, Gibson, and Brewer instead of Noah, Boozer, and Korver simply because that was the way he probably felt was the more realistic way to beat the Heat- to ensure that at least their defense would be better.

There aren't many plays you can run for those guys but there aren't many you can run for Boozer, Noah, and Korver either because they can't create that much on their own either.

Sure there are. You can post up boozer first of all. Especially when rose is on the bench and watson is in cuz he's a better 3pt shooter than rose. The best play you can run for noah is no play. Cuz id want him around the basket. That's why the heat were able to hang with the bulls on the boards. Since deng is more of a jumpshooter, the defender is gonna need to stay close to him. Run some misdirection and back door plays for him while korver is on the other side running a curl play. These are simple plays too.

More than anything is that deng and rose must develope a strong post game. Cuz often, if rose is attracting the attention of the opposing players best wing defender, deng at 6'8 is probably gonna have a mismatch on him. And rose cuz I can tell that teams are gonn foul him hard when he attacks the basket which is gonna wear on him as the game and season and playoffs progress. Getting in thepost and using all of strength and frame will really help.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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What I believe Thibs could have done was to stop running the pick and roll. All the Heat did was trap Rose when that happened. If he would have stopped that it would have forced the Heat to be more creative with the double teams and Rose would have had a chance to see it coming more and make the appropriate play to combat that.

When the Bulls ran pick and roll, Rose was barely able even get to the screener (whether it was Boozer or Noah). That is ultimately why Asik and Taj were put out there to end games. And when those guys are out there, you might as well forget about thinking about spacing the floor at all because it would be almost pointless (so Brewer was in too instead of Korver). The Heat at least weren't getting a lot of long rebounds (which sparks their transition game). The main reason why they won Game 5 was because Wade and James started hitting contested three's.

Rose is the only Bulls with the ability to be create and they completely took him out of the game at certain points. The other Bulls just couldn't step up enough and the whole team shot a terrible percentage...
 

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But lests be fair. Jamison was old and williams was inconsistant. I see the compariosn in that the coaches put too much into one players hands. The bulls are much more talented than those cavs teams. Much more

i see the comparison as well because they have a lack of scorers and one key guy to rely on..which means they are not a balanced team suited for the playoffs

HOWEVER...this bulls team is clearly better defensively, and has more depth

overall more talented


the issue with the current bulls team is

A.they dont any really go to scorers(noah's offense is still raw,deng is a #3 option but not necessarily a 20 point scorer night in and night out, and boozer is constantly hampered with injuries and declining)

B.Rose is a shoot first, score first PG..its not necessarily a net negative...but you wonder if rose should be trying to drive in the lane and create his own offense nearly every possession or try to create some room for an open shot or a cut to the basket more often..rose doesnt have bad court vision...but i think he does need to work on his distributing ability...not to say he should cut his number of shots in half..but some moderation is good

C.outside shooting...ties a little bit to rose not always giving them great opportunities on offense..but thats definitely not the only reason for poor outside shooting..besides Korver..there arent any significant threats from outside...deng and rose are improving their outside shot which will be very important..but i think they need another outside shooter to complement korver so he has a little less pressure not being the only one who has outside game..

also..what hurts is when defenses pack it in and make the bulls try to shoot from the outside...and they cant so their offense becomes stagnant and the rely on rose to try to weave his way to another missed shot...better 3 point shooting or another 3 point shooter in general makes the defense honor the outside shot and spread out more..thus there is more room to create offense inside the paint and inside the arc overall

how can you say rose has 0% to blame for the bulls loss'? are you kidding?

im not saying he takes most of the blame(there are lot of different reasons...boozer sadly is a big one)...but im damn sure rose could have played better that series
 

97Bulls

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What I believe Thibs could have done was to stop running the pick and roll. All the Heat did was trap Rose when that happened. If he would have stopped that it would have forced the Heat to be more creative with the double teams and Rose would have had a chance to see it coming more and make the appropriate play to combat that.

Exactly. Don't bring nother defender to him for goodness sake. The biggest problem I saw from rose is he just looked tired. A lot of his shots were short. He didn't look as quick. He looked like he hit that wall so to speak
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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Sure there are. You can post up boozer first of all. Especially when rose is on the bench and watson is in cuz he's a better 3pt shooter than rose. The best play you can run for noah is no play. Cuz id want him around the basket. That's why the heat were able to hang with the bulls on the boards. Since deng is more of a jumpshooter, the defender is gonna need to stay close to him. Run some misdirection and back door plays for him while korver is on the other side running a curl play. These are simple plays too.

More than anything is that deng and rose must develope a strong post game. Cuz often, if rose is attracting the attention of the opposing players best wing defender, deng at 6'8 is probably gonna have a mismatch on him. And rose cuz I can tell that teams are gonn foul him hard when he attacks the basket which is gonna wear on him as the game and season and playoffs progress. Getting in thepost and using all of strength and frame will really help.

The Heat were able to hang with the Bulls on the boards because Haslem was out there combined with Boozer and Noah being gimpy.

Boozer was not a low-post option in the Heat series at all. And pretty much wasn't for the entire final third of the season and rest of the playoffs. The only thing he tried to do when he got the ball was dribble into a soft lay-up attempt and he would get SWATTED what seemed like five times per game.

And the thing about Korver is that he's basically useless against the Heat. He's an enormous liability on defense and it's terribly hard to hide him unless Bibby is out there too. But more than that... he is easy to defend because all he does is shoot and the Heat are made up of players that contest jumpers because of their speed, length, and athleticism. Deng is largely the same in that regard as Korver except he's a very good rebounder and defender. Rose is the only guy who can effectively create for himself and the only guy who can create for others.

It would be nice if Rose or Deng or Noah had a post up game. But the sad truth is that wasn't an option in that series because they don't. That is why Boozer was brought in so we'll see if he can stay healthy.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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Rose took all of those shots because the Bulls needed a miracle performance out of him and the Heat defense NEEDED to be expecting him to take those kind of shots to give other players a chance to be open at some point down the stretch.

He is not always a score-first PG. In the Heat series, he absolutely needed to be to give the Bulls a decent chance at winning.
 

97Bulls

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i see the comparison as well because they have a lack of scorers and one key guy to rely on..which means they are not a balanced team suited for the playoffs

HOWEVER...this bulls team is clearly better defensively, and has more depth

overall more talented


the issue with the current bulls team is

A.they dont any really go to scorers(noah's offense is still raw,deng is a #3 option but not necessarily a 20 point scorer night in and night out, and boozer is constantly hampered with injuries and declining)

B.Rose is a shoot first, score first PG..its not necessarily a net negative...but you wonder if rose should be trying to drive in the lane and create his own offense nearly every possession or try to create some room for an open shot or a cut to the basket more often..rose doesnt have bad court vision...but i think he does need to work on his distributing ability...not to say he should cut his number of shots in half..but some moderation is good

C.outside shooting...ties a little bit to rose not always giving them great opportunities on offense..but thats definitely not the only reason for poor outside shooting..besides Korver..there arent any significant threats from outside...deng and rose are improving their outside shot which will be very important..but i think they need another outside shooter to complement korver so he has a little less pressure not being the only one who has outside game..

also..what hurts is when defenses pack it in and make the bulls try to shoot from the outside...and they cant so their offense becomes stagnant and the rely on rose to try to weave his way to another missed shot...better 3 point shooting or another 3 point shooter in general makes the defense honor the outside shot and spread out more..thus there is more room to create offense inside the paint and inside the arc overall

how can you say rose has 0% to blame for the bulls loss'? are you kidding?

im not saying he takes most of the blame(there are lot of different reasons...boozer sadly is a big one)...but im damn sure rose could have played better that series
I never said rose wasn't without fault. I said I blamed the coach first for the decisions he made as to what the bulls were gonna do offensivly.

I actually agree with everything else you said. The bulls need another guy to be able score for himself. No championship team has been able to win without at least 2 guys that can get their own offense. The championship bulls had 3 in jordan, pippen and kukoc during the second 3pt. And they had 2 during the first. Hell even ron harper could get up a shot on his own if needed.
 

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When the Bulls ran pick and roll, Rose was barely able even get to the screener (whether it was Boozer or Noah). That is ultimately why Asik and Taj were put out there to end games. And when those guys are out there, you might as well forget about thinking about spacing the floor at all because it would be almost pointless (so Brewer was in too instead of Korver). The Heat at least weren't getting a lot of long rebounds (which sparks their transition game). The main reason why they won Game 5 was because Wade and James started hitting contested three's.

Rose is the only Bulls with the ability to be create and they completely took him out of the game at certain points. The other Bulls just couldn't step up enough and the whole team shot a terrible percentage...

The fact Rose could barely get to the screener was exactly why Thibs should have let the pick and roll go for the series. The Heat automatically went to the trap when the Rose even looked like he was about to run a pick and roll. Whether the guys are one dimensional or not, when it takes Rose 4-5 seconds to break away from the double or triple team, and then finally pass it to whomever, they take a rushed shot, it's shouldn't be a surprise that they miss it. Eliminate the pick and roll, like in game one, and go with better ball movement until the open man shoots. Now if they continue to miss shots, than that's that. But allowing the Heat to easily gang up on Rose during the pick and roll didn't make sense to me. That was the main problem, predictable plays. You can still run a variety of plays with NBA talent, which every NBA team has.
 

DCguy

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Rose took all of those shots because the Bulls needed a miracle performance out of him and the Heat defense NEEDED to be expecting him to take those kind of shots to give other players a chance to be open at some point down the stretch.

He is not always a score-first PG. In the Heat series, he absolutely needed to be to give the Bulls a decent chance at winning.

To me, Rose was on ball hog mode the whole playoffs. We one some games with that. It worked mainly in the Pacers series. But it hurt us some against the Hawks, especially in game 4. But Game 5 the ball moved and the defense picked up towards the end to pulls away from the Hawks, and game 6 the ball moved through out the game and the Bulls won big without Rose taking 32 like he did the last time they won big which was game 3 in that series. I felt he should have made the pass more, because when he did, the team came through, even in game one against the Heat.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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The fact Rose could barely get to the screener was exactly why Thibs should have let the pick and roll go for the series. The Heat automatically went to the trap when the Rose even looked like he was about to run a pick and roll. Whether the guys are one dimensional or not, when it takes Rose 4-5 seconds to break away from the double or triple team, and then finally pass it to whomever, they take a rushed shot, it's shouldn't be a surprise that they miss it. Eliminate the pick and roll, like in game one, and go with better ball movement until the open man shoots. Now if they continue to miss shots, than that's that. But allowing the Heat to easily gang up on Rose during the pick and roll didn't make sense to me. That was the main problem, predictable plays. You can still run a variety of plays with NBA talent, which every NBA team has.

The problem is that they needed an assortment of those plays. They couldn't just use off-ball screeners the entire time because Rose was still going to be trapped regardless of anything. Noah and Boozer was the main recipient on those screen plays and they would then try to do something off of the dribble- either putting up a soft lay-up or dishing it to Deng/Korver who would immediately be closed out upon or a double-teamed Rose. There really wasn't a good option in that series at all. The main thing to blame is injuries and Gar Forman and John Paxson for not getting a deal done for a versatile off-guard.
 

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I never said rose wasn't without fault. I said I blamed the coach first for the decisions he made as to what the bulls were gonna do offensivly.

the rose fault comment was not directed towards anyone specific but i did hear the comment on this thread that rose deserved no blame for losing the ECF and that simply is not true...

i disagree a little about blaming the coaches first...sometimes the coaches do make mistakes in running a play that didnt fit in correspondence to the lineup...or not giving rose opportunities to create for himself or others..although quit a bit in that series rose was doing iso which in many cases how iso is ran is more heavily dependent on the player running the iso then the structure of the play or the coach who calls the play

I actually agree with everything else you said. The bulls need another guy to be able score for himself. No championship team has been able to win without at least 2 guys that can get their own offense. The championship bulls had 3 in jordan, pippen and kukoc during the second 3pt. And they had 2 during the first. Hell even ron harper could get up a shot on his own if needed.

dont disagree with that at all.. although i think in this day and age you also need to have good 3 point shooting to have a balanced offensive attack..thats what really helped dallas..i wouldnt say they had a great #2 or #3 option(terry is a spotty guy and marion isnt a 20 point scorer anymore) but they did run their offense very well and could score inside the paint area with a dirk shot or tyson chandler inside or whatever..AND they could go outside..the defense cant necessarily focus totally on one area of the floor

but i certainly think its important to have another guy who can consistently score when needed as a #2...and a #3 who can do a bit of the same
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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To me, Rose was on ball hog mode the whole playoffs. We one some games with that. It worked mainly in the Pacers series. But it hurt us some against the Hawks, especially in game 4. But Game 5 the ball moved and the defense picked up towards the end to pulls away from the Hawks, and game 6 the ball moved through out the game and the Bulls won big without Rose taking 32 like he did the last time they won big which was game 3 in that series. I felt he should have made the pass more, because when he did, the team came through, even in game one against the Heat.

The Bulls were exposed in the playoffs because they went up against a team with more depth than the Bulls (Pacers) and a team with four guys who can all create their own shot (the Hawks). They needed Rose to take over games. The Bulls couldn't have beaten the Hawks if they didn't put the ball in Rose's hands. The Pacers series was hard fought mainly because Boozer just botched the entire thing.
 

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The Bulls were exposed in the playoffs because they went up against a team with more depth than the Bulls (Pacers) and a team with four guys who can all create their own shot (the Hawks). They needed Rose to take over games. The Bulls couldn't have beaten the Hawks if they didn't put the ball in Rose's hands. The Pacers series was hard fought mainly because Boozer just botched the entire thing.

Wasn't Boozer injured at that time?
 

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The problem is that they needed an assortment of those plays. They couldn't just use off-ball screeners the entire time because Rose was still going to be trapped regardless of anything. Noah and Boozer was the main recipient on those screen plays and they would then try to do something off of the dribble- either putting up a soft lay-up or dishing it to Deng/Korver who would immediately be closed out upon or a double-teamed Rose. There really wasn't a good option in that series at all. The main thing to blame is injuries and Gar Forman and John Paxson for not getting a deal done for a versatile off-guard.

Exactly, they would have still went for the double team, but without the pick and roll being involved, they would have had someone just straight run at him to catch him off guard. Rose reacted better than that. I'm basically saying Thibs should have just scrapped the pick and roll and went with the ball movement approach. I think CJ and Brewer could have done a little off the dribble to help Rose out more in my opinion.
 

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