Rose is waking up!

[The Hawk]

Good job of doing a little research to figure out the real reason Collins was fired...and then ever so slightly trying to bend your theory into truth without people noticing. It didn't work but good job. That said, Butler and Jordan's situation are NOTHING ALIKE.

So was Rose a point guard when Ben Gordon was here? Did he stop being a pg when he became the best player on the team? How does that work exactly?

What research? I remember how it all went down with Collins and company is all. Do you not recall how pissed Jordan was when they traded his best friend and body guard, Oakley? He was outspoken about that. He also did not trust many of his teammates at the time as being able to make critical shots and Collins was frustrated with that and did move Jordan to the top in order to force him to pass the ball.

BTW, what do you mean by my "bending the truth"? How? When? What? Has the NBA game not evolved to the point where the term point guard pretty much means nothing anymore? I think that it has. My point has always been that Rose is a shoot first player and does not have what used to be called point guard skills. I believe that I likened him to Iverson in a previous post did I not?

You say that Jordan's and Butler's situation are nothing alike. I disagree in that both players called out both management and their fellow players. Jordan just took it to another level and could do that because he was the GOAT and knew it.

You and I could go on arguing semantics all that we want about what a point guard is or isn't and it really doesn't matter because it is just a label which has different meanings. It is similar to the arguments made about what position Tim Duncan plays. Is he a center or a power forward? Doesn't matter one whit really. He is just an all-time great player.

 

[Benchmob757]

Positions in basketball, especially today, are for the most part meaningless. You play to your strengths, who cares if gasol is listed as a PF or a C, he has his style of play and doesn't have to fit into some definition of what a position needs to be. Same with any other player.

Surprised at the back-and-forth about this, especially from fans of a team who ran a triangle in which at least 3 players at any given time could bring the ball up the floor and start the offense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[houheffna]

You and I could go on arguing semantics all that we want about what a point guard is or isn't and it really doesn't matter because it is just a label which has different meanings. It is similar to the arguments made about what position Tim Duncan plays. Is he a center or a power forward? Doesn't matter one whit really. He is just an all-time great player.

If the title doesn't matter, why are you complaining that Rose isn't a point guard and should be playing shooting? Is he incapable of ball handling and passing? If Hoiberg is using an offense similar to Golden State...why complain about Rose?

 

[The Hawk]

If the title doesn't matter, why are you complaining that Rose isn't a point guard and should be playing shooting? Is he incapable of ball handling and passing? If Hoiberg is using an offense similar to Golden State...why complain about Rose?

What I have been saying is that ball handling and passing are not the strong points of his game. I have said that he is a score first pass second guard. Point guard really doesn't exist anymore in the NBA by the definition of what a point guard was supposed to do. I don't know how many times I have to say this but the Bulls could use a guard or even a small forward(ala Pippin) who was a pass first type of guy who could set other guys up.

 

[The Hawk]

im talking about on offense and I said IF thats all he brings to the table...you're the one that said Butler shouldn't make any adjustments to his offensive game....and what hes bringing to the table on that end is iso and postups

you're not winning anything with that style of play on offense especially with a non-superstar like Jimmy so yeah if he refuses to adjust trade him while his value is high

First of all, I seem to remember another player who happened to be named Jordan who dominated the league with ISOs and post-ups. DWade, Kobe, Barkley, etc. They also come to mind.

You are just wrong about Butler because he does a lot more than merely posting up and isolation. There is a lot more to his game than that on offense, and how can you so readily ignore his defense and rebounding ability. Do you not think that having a guy who can match up defensively with any other guard or small forward in the league is pretty damn valuable?

I just do not get that because this guy spoke up about his teammates and coaches WORKING HARDER, he suddenly is some kind of bad guy. Hell, most of his teammates and coaches ended up agreeing with him. TOugh shit if they didn't like being called on it. If poor whittle Pau didn't like it, he can take his act somewhere else, the wine drinking soft Euro that he is

 

[The Hawk]

The Hawk doesn't want people to equate Hoiberg to Phil, but he equated Butler to Jordan. Wat?!?!?!

Also, Jordan hated Doug Collins so much that he hired him in Washington. Wat?!?!?!

He also fired Doug Collins in Washington did he not? ANd I equated Jordan and Butler because both spoke up and complained to management. Jordan was pissed when Collins wanted Oakley out and Krause traded him. Look it up if you don't believe me. Eventually Jordan mellowed after winning some championships with Phil. You have to understand how pissed Jordan was about not winning any championships in his first years with the Bulls and pretty much threw Collins under the bus and Krause helped also because Collins was going around his back to Reinny.

 

[The Hawk]

Rose has been a PG at every level. He always operates with the ball in his hands. A couple times this year he seemed to be getting minutes while resting and deferring to Moore as the PG. Or letting Jimmy do his thing.

For the vast majority of the minutes he is running the show. Is Lebron a PG? Was Jordan the PG?

Its all relative. To say Jordan was the SG and Kerr was the PG isn't quite right...it is about the play on the court and not the position. Rose in college = PG. Rose in past = PG. A couple times this year we have had others bring the ball up or run the offense.

But Rose is one of the PG's on this team. Come on Hawk. Post better, you can do it.

I believe that I have clarified what I mean. No desire to further argue it.

 

[Axl Rose]

First of all, I seem to remember another player who happened to be named Jordan who dominated the league with ISOs and post-ups. DWade, Kobe, Barkley, etc. They also come to mind.

You are just wrong about Butler because he does a lot more than merely posting up and isolation. There is a lot more to his game than that on offense, and how can you so readily ignore his defense and rebounding ability. Do you not think that having a guy who can match up defensively with any other guard or small forward in the league is pretty damn valuable?

I just do not get that because this guy spoke up about his teammates and coaches WORKING HARDER, he suddenly is some kind of bad guy. Hell, most of his teammates and coaches ended up agreeing with him. TOugh shit if they didn't like being called on it. If poor whittle Pau didn't like it, he can take his act somewhere else, the wine drinking soft Euro that he is

so comparing Hoiberg to Pjax is blasphemous but comparing Jimmy to Jordan, Kobe, Wade is okay?

Im not wrong about Butler you're just twisting what i said...i even clarified i was strictly talking about offesne and yet you ignored that to spew your rhetoric about how amazing Butler is

Jimmy is good but not a player that is a generational talent like the guys you named

 

[houheffna]

He also fired Doug Collins in Washington did he not? ANd I equated Jordan and Butler because both spoke up and complained to management. Jordan was pissed when Collins wanted Oakley out and Krause traded him. Look it up if you don't believe me. Eventually Jordan mellowed after winning some championships with Phil. You have to understand how pissed Jordan was about not winning any championships in his first years with the Bulls and pretty much threw Collins under the bus and Krause helped also because Collins was going around his back to Reinny.

Jordan never got Collins fired. They did that behind Jordan's back. So lets stop with that. Jordan didn't fire Collins in Washington either...because Jordan was let go first. And the year Collins got fired...he took the Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals! I don't think Jordan would try to fire the coach that got him that far.

Those parts you didn't research hard enough.

 

[RoseMVP1]

This man just said ball handling isn't a strength for Rose....you're crazy dude.

 

[clonetrooper264]

This man just said ball handling isn't a strength for Rose....you're crazy dude.

For real...Rose has one of the best crossovers in the NBA. Not bad for someone who can't handle the ball eh?

 

[The Hawk]

so comparing Hoiberg to Pjax is blasphemous but comparing Jimmy to Jordan, Kobe, Wade is okay?

Im not wrong about Butler you're just twisting what i said...i even clarified i was strictly talking about offesne and yet you ignored that to spew your rhetoric about how amazing Butler is

Jimmy is good but not a player that is a generational talent like the guys you named

I just think that you short changed Butler by just talking about ISOs and post-ups and said something to the effect that if he doesn't adapt somehow then get rid of him. That ignores his total worth as a player including his ability play great defense and rebound from his position. The other thing is that Butler is yong and has improved every year that he has been in the league. He has become more than just a "good player".

 

[The Hawk]

Jordan never got Collins fired. They did that behind Jordan's back. So lets stop with that. Jordan didn't fire Collins in Washington either...because Jordan was let go first. And the year Collins got fired...he took the Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals! I don't think Jordan would try to fire the coach that got him that far.

IF you take a look at actually happened, that team was almost in revolt. Collins put Jordan at the top as a playmaker, Jordan was begging for additional players and Collins was constantly in Reinny's ear about how bad Krause was and Krause was pissed at him. Reinny took a look at it and decided enough was enough and went with the Jordan and Krause demands and fired Collins.

Those parts you didn't research hard enough.

From Yahoo answers: Re the question of did Jordan get Collins fired?


Basketball
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Alpha Wolf(Bringer of Rain)
Why did Michael Jordan have Doug collins Fired in 1989??

In 1988 Doug Collins said.."Wanna know what the Biggest problem in running our offense??....It's Michael Jordan!..he won't pass the Ball!!"..

Doug Collins wanted MJ to pass the ball...MJ did'nt like that too much!...and told jerry Kraus the GM..."Either he goes or I go!"


Another fact. Jordan did not want to get the blame for Collins getting fired and said that it was "management" who made the decision. He didn't want to get the blame that Magic Johnson did when he got his head coach fired just a few years prior to this.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Yahoo Answers is the most reliable of sources

 

[The Hawk]

Yahoo Answers is the most reliable of sources

I'm not claiming that it is but the fact is that Jordan complained a lot about how he was being used by Doug COllins. I know that Jordan's hatred of Krause is legendary but Jordan was very pissed off at Collins also at the time. He hated the Oakley deal which both Collins and Krause were in favor of. He(Jordan) hated Cartwright's offense and actually told Pippin and Grant that they were not to pass the ball to Cartwright or they'd never get the ball from him. It is interesting to read about what actually went down around those years behind the scenes. Jordan truly was a bad ass!

 

[Enasic]

Jordan truly was a dick. And still is.

 

[The Hawk]

For real...Rose has one of the best crossovers in the NBA. Not bad for someone who can't handle the ball eh?

He does have a great cross over. I never said, though, that he "can't handle the ball". Why does everything have to be so extreme? As in he can't handle the ball? I said that ball handling and passing are not his strength. What he has is his explosiveness and ability to get to the rim. His other big time asset is his strength to take the blow and still get the shot off. And his ability to shoot nice floaters. But when I talk about ball handling, I am talking about the ball handling that players do to deliberately try to draw defenders to them in order to set other players up for shots. In other words, what the traditional POINT GUARD does or did.

 

[Novak]

Yahoo answers... oh my hmy:

 

[clonetrooper264]

I'm not claiming that it is but the fact is that Jordan complained a lot about how he was being used by Doug COllins. I know that Jordan's hatred of Krause is legendary but Jordan was very pissed off at Collins also at the time. He hated the Oakley deal which both Collins and Krause were in favor of. He(Jordan) hated Cartwright's offense and actually told Pippin and Grant that they were not to pass the ball to Cartwright or they'd never get the ball from him. It is interesting to read about what actually went down around those years behind the scenes. Jordan truly was a bad ass!

He definitely hated the Oakley trade, that is a well known fact. It's all well known that he's a colossal jerk. But he didn't get Collins fired.

SO SAYS SAM SMITH!

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...lins-knowledge-doug-collins-collins-dismissal

 

[GalePayton]

Yahoo Answers is the most reliable of sources

:lmao: