Scottie Pippen

[FirstTimer]

Maybe top 5 wasn't completely thought through on my part but,

Early favorite to win CCS "Understatement of the Year Award"?

 

[FirstTimer]

Can't wait to see what load of BS 97Bulls responds with next.

Maybe he can tell us more about James Worthy's career?!

 

[FirstTimer]

Perhaps he can/will even question someones fanhood!

 

[97Bulls]

You can't prove that's my pathetic!

For all we know it could be yours.

.
Because you lose?

I DIRECTLY QUOTED YOU in a discussion on Grant Hill and Scottie Pippen. It's not like I tried to extrapolate that into discussions of economics.

No, you picked out a few words
Ok?

And you keep responding to points I made. You aren't arguing Rami's points with me. You are quoting comments I directly made and in my context. Nice try,


I never said you did. I said you compared them.

Which they actualyl didn't because they had different styles of play. Looking at simply the end result on a stat sheet kind of misses the point of how they scored what they did and what kind of skill set and potential they had when they put up those points.
What does it matter as to how they scored? The fact is they scored. Im not talking about their styles.
In Rice's "peak" scoring season he shot nearly 450 three pointers. You're treally trying to compare him as a player and a scorer to Hill? A guy who for his ENTIRE CAREER has taken just over 600.

Nice work on that horrible comparison.

Did you even compare rice and hills offensive production? They very similar
Wow. Talk about a leap and half.

1. Len Bias never played a second of NBA basketball. Hill, before his ankles went out just as he was entering his prime, had played 6 seasons. We have a bit more data to draw from and make educated guesses and theories there don't we?
I agree, but you are going off of what ifs. The same can be said for bias
2. I never labeled Hill as an all-time great. I just insinuated thathe had the potential to be one if he hadn't gotten hurt based on where his career track was taking him.


This shit again?


Wow. Talk about missing the point by miles and miles and miles....Pippen at 29 I feel would have been putting up similar stats through out his "prime years" 29 wasn't neccessarily a "max out" year but a pretty good indication of what he was capable of as "the man". Hill, when he got hurt was actually improving as a player and scorer. IMO if Pippen was capable of a lot more his numbers would have "exploded" more when Jordan left. They didn't. They went up and IMO he cemented himself as a Top 5 player in the NBA at the time. That's damn impressive and really fucking good. However IMO Hill had much more potential to grow as a player, and statisically then what's Pippen "jump" after Jordan left indicated that he had.
Hill based on his track record, hill would've never been much better than what we saw in 00. Like I said earlier, its called deductive reasoning. We both agree your guessing. I just took it a bit further and compare hills scoring outputs to thos that scored at a similar rate.


No shit?

Really?

Thanks for pointing that out.

.
Really damn impressive.


Hill was putting up great rookie seasons against those same guys when Pippen was peaking. it's not like Hill played poorly for a few seasons, those guys retired then he lit up shitty NBA players. He had a fantastic rookie season and was good right away against those players. Way to misrepresent what actually occurred...again.
Im not misrepresenting anything. You said hill was on his way to being the next jordan as of 00. How? When he couldn't even crack all-nba 1st team?
Here are the All NBA 1st teams from Hill's last three seasons before he got hurt:
1997-1998
Duncan
Jordan
Malone
O'Neal
Payton

*Hill made the All NBA 2nd team that season. Pippen was 3rd team.
As you can see Hill was already viewed as a REALLY damn good player before all those guys got old ineffective or however you want to present it.

1998-1999
Duncan
Iverson
Kidd
Malone
Mourning

*Hill made the second team this year.

1999-2000
Duncan
Garnett
Kidd
O'Neal
Payton

*Hill 2nd team again.

And then he go thurt.

The NBA was still damn strong in the late 90's and early 2000's.

Keep trying to misrepresent the facts.


The nba was going through a transition in the late 00s. We've seen the outcome of hills peers had he been able to remain healthy and they don't hold up to pippens peers. Other than kobe, shaq, garnett, and duncan. None of the other guys can crack the top 20

No duh?

BUT HE DIDN'T. He had almost two full prime seasons with no Jordan around to draw from. It's not like we are left to wonder "I wonder what Pippen could do if Jordan wasn't around...." We saw it...and for the 15th time. It was damn impressive and damn good. Quit acting as though we don't have non-Jordan influenced data on Pippen to draw from. We do.

Which brings us back to my original point. Pippen did more in his 2 years in his prime as the man than hills did in his 2 prime years as the man. They put up similar stats, and pippens defense is far superior. Shits and giggles be damned.

bottom line

 

[FirstTimer]

bottom line

You suck at quoting.

 

[FirstTimer]

No, you picked out a few words

LOL at this.

I took entire chunks of your terrible posts and broke them down.

Did you even compare rice and hills offensive production? They very similar

Yes.

I saw it. Both live and in retrospect. Not in a million years would I ever compare Rice and Hill as players. Their production came by completely different means and at different points in their career. Nice work. Glen Rice at 29. Well shoot let's see what Hill did at 2....oh wait. He was HURT and a completely different style of player. Yep. Great comparison.........

just took it a bit further and compare hills scoring outputs to thos that scored at a similar rate.

You took a turn to nonsense. Comparing the rate at which scorers score and ignoring the obvious and glaring differences in the way they do it, how old they are when they do it, and their general skill set etc is a ridiculous oversight. How can you NOT see that?

Im not misrepresenting anything

Yes you are. Trying to downplay the talent pool Hill played against or woul dhave played against is laughable at best seeing as he was already being viewed as a better player than Pippen relative to their career paths overlapping when they were playing against the same players. Hill had a fantastic rookie season playing against the same player that your "prime Pippen" was putting up his best seasons against.

You are just making shit up now at this point.

You said hill was on his way to being the next jordan as of 00. How? When he couldn't even crack all-nba 1st team?

First off all: I never said that. I said that's what was being said about Hill at the time...because it was.
2010 NBA Playoffs: Grant Hill reinvents himself with Phoenix Suns - ESPN

Hell, that article pointed out Hill finished third in the MVP voting one season behind Jordan and Malone.


At least Hill lived up to the moniker a bit better than Harold Miner.

The nba was going through a transition in the late 00s. We've seen the outcome of hills peers had he been able to remain healthy and they don't hold up to pippens peers. Other than kobe, shaq, garnett, and duncan. None of the other guys can crack the top 20

That's 4 in the Top 20. The list of guys you named that Pippen played at the same time as:
Hakeem: Top 20
Payton: Not top 20
Malone: Top 20
Robinson: Maybe Top 20. Not IMO
Shaq: Top 20
Barkley: Top 20..but borderline..but I'd put him in there. IMO the 3rd best PF ever
Jordan: Pippen didn't play against Jordan so this doesn't matter..nor was MJ in the league when Pippen played by himself.
Stockton: Not Top 20
Hardaway: Not Top 20
Webber: Not Top 20

Pretty even. 4-4. At worst 4-5 if you want to take the Admiral...which I don't know why you would.

Which brings us back to my original point. Pippen did more in his 2 years in his prime as the man than hills did in his 2 prime years as the man. They put up similar stats, and pippens defense is far superior. Shits and giggles be damned

No shit sherlock. We never got to see Hill's "prime". Hill was trending toward being one of the best players ever before he got hurt. He was gaining accolades, respect, etc. His scoring was going up and on and on...

Tremendous "point".

 

[97Bulls]

LOL at this.

I took entire chunks of your terrible posts and broke them down.


Yes.

I saw it. Both live and in retrospect. Not in a million years would I ever compare Rice and Hill as players. Their production came by completely different means and at different points in their career. Nice work. Glen Rice at 29. Well shoot let's see what Hill did at 2....oh wait. He was HURT and a completely different style of player. Yep. Great comparison.........
im not comparing them as players. Im comparing their offensive production



You took a turn to nonsense. Comparing the rate at which scorers score and ignoring the obvious and glaring differences in the way they do it, how old they are when they do it, and their general skill set etc is a ridiculous oversight. How can you NOT see that?


Yes you are. Trying to downplay the talent pool Hill played against or woul dhave played against is laughable at best seeing as he was already being viewed as a better player than Pippen relative to their career paths overlapping when they were playing against the same players. Hill had a fantastic rookie season playing against the same player that your "prime Pippen" was putting up his best seasons against.

You are just making shit up now at this point.


First off all: I never said that. I said that's what was being said about Hill at the time...because it was.
2010 NBA Playoffs: Grant Hill reinvents himself with Phoenix Suns - ESPN

Hell, that article pointed out Hill finished third in the MVP voting one season behind Jordan and Malone.


At least Hill lived up to the moniker a bit better than Harold Miner.



That's 4 in the Top 20. The list of guys you named that Pippen played at the same time as:
Hakeem: Top 20
Payton: Not top 20
Malone: Top 20
Robinson: Maybe Top 20. Not IMO
Shaq: Top 20
Barkley: Top 20..but borderline..but I'd put him in there. IMO the 3rd best PF ever
Jordan: Pippen didn't play against Jordan so this doesn't matter..nor was MJ in the league when Pippen played by himself.
Stockton: Not Top 20
Hardaway: Not Top 20
Webber: Not Top 20

Pretty even. 4-4. At worst 4-5 if you want to take the Admiral...which I don't know why you would.

who would you consider hills best competiton? From 99 to 00 the best players were shaq, kidd, mourning, webber, just not that many.and nowhere near the top level players pippen had to compete against

No shit sherlock. We never got to see Hill's "prime". Hill was trending toward being one of the best players ever before he got hurt. He was gaining accolades, respect, etc. His scoring was going up and on and on...
show me a player that's similar as far as trend to hill offensively. Try to justofy your claim. I provided about 5 for mine
Tremendous "point".

I know, I suck at quoting

 

[FirstTimer]

im not comparing them as players. Im comparing their offensive production

I...know.....

I'm saying it's stupid to do because they produced their offense in different ways. To compare "offensive production" yet ignore the fact that the offense was produced in completely different ways is myopic and borderline Special person.

Hence this comment which you either didn't read or were incapable of understanding..

You took a turn to nonsense. Comparing the rate at which scorers score and ignoring the obvious and glaring differences in the way they do it, how old they are when they do it, and their general skill set etc is a ridiculous oversight. How can you NOT see that?

BTW, assists are offensive production stats too. Nice how you leave those out. Not that it matters...

who would you consider hills best competiton?

a rising McGrady, VC, Iverson, Sprewell, Garnett, Duncan, Malone, Webber, Kidd, Payton, Finley, Shaq, Mutumbo, Mourning, Sheed, Ray Allen, A fading Reggie Miller, Abdur Raheem, Eddie Jones, Marbury,a rising Kobe, Houston, Glenn Robinson, Stockton top start with.

just not that many.and nowhere near the top level players pippen had to compete against

Again..laughable. Grant Hill won/shared rookie of the year against the same players Pippen had his "peak" seasons against when Jordan was gone. Hill excelling in the league right away against that talent. Quit trying to make it seem Hill played in a "softer" NBA when from the moment he stepped on the court in the NBA he obviously belonged.

show me a player that's similar as far as trend to hill offensively. Try to justofy your claim. I provided about 5 for mine

You're STILL not getting this?

How can I show you similar players to what Hill's prime would have been if HE DIDN'T play during it so I have no point of comparison.

The 5 you showed weren't "similar" they just averaged around the same PPG Hill did while he was a completely different style of player. You showed me:
Glen Rice: Completely different style of scorer.
Kevin Garnett: A center and a powerfoward. Yep, great player to compare to a point forward...........
Tim Duncan: See above comment.
Mitch Richmond: See comments in this thread regarding Glen Rice..only a better version. Different type of scorer and player than Hill.
Reggie Miller: Completely different style of player than Hill.

Your "similar" players aren't "similar" at all.
LOL at trying to take Glen Rice 26-4-2 season and trying to draw conclusions about Hill and what he would have done when Hill averaged 7.7RPG and 6.2 APG over his first 6 seasons in the league. The five guys you named have literally nothing in common with Hill....at all. Looking at this 3pt shoort or this PF/C scoring wise and saying Hill wouldn't have surpassed that simply because those players didn't when they played different styles, and scored differently is basketball Special person.


The entire point is that Hill would have been his own player and followed his own arc because he was on pace to become a HOF'er.

Honestly the best comparison to Hill in his prime would be a more athletic version of Pippen. Better ball handler. Better rebounder and above the rim player. Maybe not as elite a defender but in the conversation. Better pure scorer. Stat line of 4-5 prime years averaging around 26pts-8reb-8ast. Some seasons over that, some seasons a bit under. Easily surpassing what we saw from Pippen in his two seasons by himself.

 

[FirstTimer]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x1p46_uc7Q]YouTube - ‪Grant Hill Mix - Yinka Dare‬‏[/ame]

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

please dont tell me you still think grant isnt a high riser lol?

 

[FirstTimer]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IXk1SXz8RU]YouTube - ‪Grant Hill career high 46points VS Wizards‬‏[/ame]

 

[FirstTimer]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8NX2wKEYow&feature=related]YouTube - ‪Grant Hill triple double VS Bulls in1997‬‏[/ame]

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

opcorn:

 

[97Bulls]

I...know.....

I'm saying it's stupid to do because they produced their offense in different ways. To compare "offensive production" yet ignore the fact that the offense was produced in completely different ways is myopic and borderline Special person.
dude, you obviously don't follow sports. Your confusing style with results. Stop it. Your making yourdelf look stupid. Who's better? The guy that scores 20 ppg on jumpshots, or the guy that scores 20 ppg attacking the basket? Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Im not in no way shape or form saying that glen rice was better than grant hill. Just that their offensive production was similar. Not their rebounding, defense, passing etc
Hence this comment which you either didn't read or were incapable of understanding..


BTW, assists are offensive production stats too. Nice how you leave those out. Not that it matters...




a rising McGrady, VC, Iverson, Sprewell, Garnett, Duncan, Malone, Webber, Kidd, Payton, Finley, Shaq, Mutumbo, Mourning, Sheed, Ray Allen, A fading Reggie Miller, Abdur Raheem, Eddie Jones, Marbury,a rising Kobe, Houston, Glenn Robinson, Stockton top start with.

I asked you to name the top players. Not good players. Im drawing a parallel between the players from their respective primes. If that's the best you can list. I can see why you feel hill was on his way to being the best player in the league

Again..laughable. Grant Hill won/shared rookie of the year against the same players Pippen had his "peak" seasons against when Jordan was gone. Hill excelling in the league right away against that talent. Quit trying to make it seem Hill played in a "softer" NBA when from the moment he stepped on the court in the NBA he obviously belonged.

come on bro. Only rookie can win rookie of the year. Even then he had to share it. And im not saying the league was softer. Just not as good

You're STILL not getting this?

How can I show you similar players to what Hill's prime would have been if HE DIDN'T play during it so I have no point of comparison.

The 5 you showed weren't "similar" they just averaged around the same PPG Hill did while he was a completely different style of player. You showed me:
Glen Rice: Completely different style of scorer.
Kevin Garnett: A center and a powerfoward. Yep, great player to compare to a point forward...........
Tim Duncan: See above comment.
Mitch Richmond: See comments in this thread regarding Glen Rice..only a better version. Different type of scorer and player than Hill.
Reggie Miller: Completely different style of player than Hill.

Your "similar" players aren't "similar" at all.
LOL at trying to take Glen Rice 26-4-2 season and trying to draw conclusions about Hill and what he would have done when Hill averaged 7.7RPG and 6.2 APG over his first 6 seasons in the league. The five guys you named have literally nothing in common with Hill....at all. Looking at this 3pt shoort or this PF/C scoring wise and saying Hill wouldn't have surpassed that simply because those players didn't when they played different styles, and scored differently is basketball Special person.
follow me. Im only referring to their offensive production. Not anything else. And definately not styles

The entire point is that Hill would have been his own player and followed his own arc because he was on pace to become a HOF'er.
we agree on this. Hill was definatley on his way to greatness. But he's not better than pippen
Honestly the best comparison to Hill in his prime would be a more athletic version of Pippen. Better ball handler. Better rebounder and above the rim player. Maybe not as elite a defender but in the conversation. Better pure scorer. Stat line of 4-5 prime years averaging around 26pts-8reb-8ast. Some seasons over that, some seasons a bit under. Easily surpassing what we saw from Pippen in his two seasons by himself.

he never showed that. The year he managed 26, he got 7 rbds and 5 assts. Id still pick pippen and his prime 22/9/7 and greatest defender ever. And I agree that hill was quicker than pippen, I think pippen was a better jumer and above the rim player. He's one of the few players that legitimately could dunk from the ft line. Hills probably a better midrange shooter but pippens better at shooting 3s. Hills first step was amazing but pippen was no slouch. And pippen is just better than hill defensively. And they're equal passers.

Overall, pippen was better. 6 years of play is long enough to draw a fair conclusion.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

some people are unwilling to learn

 

[97Bulls]

some people are unwilling to learn

Im trying to teach you guys. But don't worry you'll get there.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

It's sad when people resort to lying to themselves when all else fails.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Grant Hill in his prime was clearly better than Scottie Pippen and the only kind of person who doesn't believe that is CLEARLY a Bulls' homer, doesn't know basketball, didn't watch one or both of them, or a combination of some or all of the above.

[end thread]

 

[97Bulls]

Grant Hill in his prime was clearly better than Scottie Pippen and the only kind of person who doesn't believe that is CLEARLY a Bulls' homer, doesn't know basketball, didn't watch one or both of them, or a combination of some or all of the above.

[end thread]

Lol why cuz you show some clips? Like I said, ill take the guy with the rings, awards and altime great. And the best non bigman defender ever. You guys can have the brittle, has been, and base your opinions on what ifs.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Lol why cuz you show some clips? Like I said, ill take the guy with the rings, awards and altime great. And the best non bigman defender ever. You guys can have the brittle, has been, and base your opinions on what ifs.

There are no what-ifs about my opinion.

Hill was truly greater than Pippen and the fact that you deny it tells me that you are probably 'all of the above' in regard to that list