Scottie Pippen

[CODE_BLUE56]

No, you did say hill was better and a better athlete. But show reasons.

look at the videos rami posted

grant has a great vertical,strength,exceptional passing ability, was a better rebounder,and had a higher PPG average than Pippen did

Grant was more polished overall although his defense was good and not great like pippen..but pippen was not nearly as diversified offensively

had grant not been...this woud not even be close to a discussion....grant got hurt when he was playing his best...

ETA:not to mention i've posted similar reasons and ideas about 206704598670398475098375 times on this thread...but you probably didnt read the whole thread did you?

 

[97Bulls]

Pippen impacted games defensively like a shitty center. Not a good defensive center. His job was to defend the best wing on the floor and to play weak side defense. Jordan helped him out seeing as though he was almost as good as Scottie defensively. Those guys played off of each other; one guy allowed the other guy to help on defense. Usually it was Jordan who was the roamer and Pippen who was the lock-down guy. Other times it was vice versa.

Yeah, you don't know what your talking about. You seem to be trying to win an argument rami. Your not even being reasonable. I accepted the stackhouse/ jordan comparison as a mistake. But your going down the same road when you say guys like ariza, bowen, and battier are similar to pippen defensively.

Id expect more from a bulls fan. And again statements like pippen defense is the equivalent to that of a shitty center is discrediting him. Or that he's on the same level defensively as the guys you mentioned (including hill) is an insult to pippen.

Just like saying guys like jerry stackhouse, allen iverson or as good a scorer as michael jordan.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Yeah, you don't know what your talking about. You seem to be trying to win an argument rami. Your not even being reasonable. I accepted the stackhouse/ jordan comparison as a mistake. But your going down the same road when you say guys like ariza, bowen, and battier are similar to pippen defensively.

ariza is not...but bowen,battier, and artest are most certainly close to pippen's level...pippen is not the god of defense seriously....

lets not act like the opposition isnt credible here...cmon

Id expect more from a bulls fan. And again statements like pippen defense is the equivalent to that of a shitty center is discrediting him. Or that he's on the same level defensively as the guys you mentioned (including hill) is an insult to pippen.

i partly agree with this.....wing defenders most certainly are game changers because they can negate your outside reliabilities as well as your wing stars..considering many players live out on the wing like lebron,wade,kobe,etc....but a big center can clog up the inside..which means you negate big men but also the ability for guards to drive and dish..by sealing the inside with a great defensive big man..you force the opposing team to score all from shooting....

i never said nor do i think rami said that grant was on the level of pippen..but again pippen is not the god of defense....bowen,battier,and artest are phenomenal defenders almost if not as good as pippen....

Just like saying guys like jerry stackhouse, allen iverson or as good a scorer as michael jordan.

stackhouse no...iverson,kobe,lebron, those guys at their height are capable of scoring 30+PPG...nearly unguardable..jordan may be the best offensive player ever..but its not like he is the best far and away....

 

[97Bulls]

look at the videos rami posted

grant has a great vertical,strength,exceptional passing ability, was a better rebounder,and had a higher PPG average than Pippen did

Grant was more polished overall although his defense was good and not great like pippen..but pippen was not nearly as diversified offensively

had grant not been...this woud not even be close to a discussion....grant got hurt when he was playing his best...

ETA:not to mention i've posted similar reasons and ideas about 206704598670398475098375 times on this thread...but you probably didnt read the whole thread did you?

Now your giving me something to respond to. The fact is, we just don't know what hill would've done had he not injured himself. Grant hill was an amzing talent before he was injured. But unfortunately, we will neve know for sure if he would've been the type of player you guys are trying to make him out to be. I admit he missed a portion of his prime, but he was in his prime when he got hurt. And like it or not, hill put up stats simmilar to pippen while he was in his prime. The difference is that pippen was only a first option player for 1 year. Hill was for 5.

I've shown similar even slightly better scorers that hit their scoring peak at around hills age and never could repeat that feat. Funny how you guys refuse to reply to that post.

Even in the rebounding comparison. Hill never rebounded with guys like grant and rodman. And his teammates weren't nearly as efficient. You don't think that more than shows the reasons for hills ONE rebound advantage?

Its called deductive reasoning. Look it up.

 

[97Bulls]

ariza is not...but bowen,battier, and artest are most certainly close to pippen's level...pippen is not the god of defense seriously....

lets not act like the opposition isnt credible here...cmon



i partly agree with this.....wing defenders most certainly are game changers because they can negate your outside reliabilities as well as your wing stars..considering many players live out on the wing like lebron,wade,kobe,etc....but a big center can clog up the inside..which means you negate big men but also the ability for guards to drive and dish..by sealing the inside with a great defensive big man..you force the opposing team to score all from shooting....

i never said nor do i think rami said that grant was on the level of pippen..but again pippen is not the god of defense....bowen,battier,and artest are phenomenal defenders almost if not as good as pippen....



stackhouse no...iverson,kobe,lebron, those guys at their height are capable of scoring 30+PPG...nearly unguardable..jordan may be the best offensive player ever..but its not like he is the best far and away....

Jordan is the greatest offensive player ever. Far and away when compared to iverson and stackhouse. But ill give you kobe and james. But I wouldn't compare pippen to guys like battier, ariza, etc. Pippens defense is on the level of gary payton, michael cooper, bobby jones, artest, rodman, and jordan. Just to name a few.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Jordan is the greatest offensive player ever. Far and away when compared to iverson and stackhouse. But ill give you kobe and james. But I wouldn't compare pippen to guys like battier, ariza, etc. Pippens defense is on the level of gary payton, michael cooper, bobby jones, artest, rodman, and jordan. Just to name a few.

battier is probably one of the best defenders of the 2000s as well as bowen..people forget how important bowen was to that spurs team....


why will you give me kobe and james and not iverson...iverson averaged 27 PPG for his career....including some 60 point games and a slew of years over 30 PPG...iverson may have been small and a ****** but the man could flat out score the rock....he singlehandedly lifted that 76ers team to the finals and then took game one from the all mighty lakers when he scored like 50 points

 

[97Bulls]

battier is probably one of the best defenders of the 2000s as well as bowen..people forget how important bowen was to that spurs team....


why will you give me kobe and james and not iverson...iverson averaged 27 PPG for his career....including some 60 point games and a slew of years over 30 PPG...iverson may have been small and a ****** but the man could flat out score the rock....he singlehandedly lifted that 76ers team to the finals and then took game one from the all mighty lakers when he scored like 50 points

Iverson was too inefficient. Although he was a beast.

And id say guys like battier and bowen were great on the ball defenders. But that's it. GP,Pippen, Jordan guys like that were farr more versitle defenders. They provided help, trap, press etc. If they only had to play defense and not do anything else but that, it would've been scary

 

[clonetrooper264]

The only knock against Iverson (who in his prime was one of my favorite players because he was the little guy and yet he was outscoring everyone) was that he was shooting in the low 40s for fg% and probably about 32% from 3 while he was scoring 30+. Not exactly the most efficient scoring option, but he did get his fair share of FTs and it's not like he had a ton of scoring talent on his team. He had a few players he could rely on, but much like our team, the offense revolved around him.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

It's not the matter of winning an argument. You are saying things that are flat out not true. If you believe Pippen was as good or better than Hill in his prime, there's nothing I can do about your opinion. But you insist on saying that Pippen was on Hill's level offensively and you cite per-game stats to justify your outrageous claims.

It's laughable.

And Code_Blue is very much accurate when he said Pippen was not the God of defense.

Pippen almost always had Jordan. And they both had Grant and Cartwright. And later on, they both had Harper (great, underrated defender), Rodman (arguably a better all-around defender than Pippen or Jordan), and Longely (stellar shot-blocker).

 

[97Bulls]

It's not the matter of winning an argument. You are saying things that are flat out not true. If you believe Pippen was as good or better than Hill in his prime, there's nothing I can do about your opinion. But you insist on saying that Pippen was on Hill's level offensively and you cite per-game stats to justify your outrageous claims.

It's laughable.

And Code_Blue is very much accurate when he said Pippen was not the God of defense.

Pippen almost always had Jordan. And they both had Grant and Cartwright. And later on, they both had Harper (great, underrated defender), Rodman (arguably a better all-around defender than Pippen or Jordan), and Longely (stellar shot-blocker).

What am I saying that's wrong rami? All we can do is speculate cuz grant hill and scottie pippen played in for different teams. And played different roles on their respective teams.

Why is it so hard to grasp that grant hill and scottie pippen avg basically the same amount of points in their best seasons? Hill avg 21 to pippens 20. Is this such a drastic edge to hill ONE POINT?!!!!!!. And as a basketball fan you can't tell me that hill playing as a 1st option and pippen playing as a second option doesn't play a factor. That's just simple math. It can't get more elementary than that. Put jordan on the pistons and he's gonna take some of his opportunities.

What's wrong with this assumtion?

And before you answer, understand that I already acknowledge that hill missed about 3 of what would've been his best years to injury. But I also acknowledge that pippen spent all of his best years behind jordan.

And please tell me. Take pippen out of the triangle and allow him to dominate the ball similar to the way hill did and let's say he plays in a more uptempo style offense like hill. How many ppg do you think pippen could avg?

 

[97Bulls]

And am I to assume that because of guys like harper, rodman, jordan, and longley, and grant, jordan, and cartwright thats what made pippen a great defender? And that he wouldn't have been that defender without those guys?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And am I to assume that because of guys like harper, rodman, jordan, and longley, and grant, jordan, and cartwright thats what made pippen a great defender? And that he wouldn't have been that defender without those guys?

All you can do is assume because you obviously don't know basketball. And you like to keep changing the topic matter.

 

[97Bulls]

All you can do is assume because you obviously don't know basketball. And you like to keep changing the topic matter.

Those were your words not mine. Now answer my question please. What about my previous post is far fetched?

And if jordan never came back, what would pippens statline be? Over the course of about 3 years.

 

[FirstTimer]

Lol im 37 yrs old.

LOL at this...

Wow.

That's even more sad. Now you really have no excuse for what you've been posting.

If I was 13, do you really think id be sitting here going back and forth about grant friggn hill?

Sicne you're 37 I'm even more shocked because you should have been able to see both play.

And I understand your view.

No you don't.

I've even reiterated your view.

Repeating back to me what I've said doesn't mean you "understand" anything.

You've showed no facts to support this claim.

No shit?! What "facts" should I have showed? It's a hypothetical argument because Hill missed his prime with injuries

Seriously. I don't get how you can say you "understand" my argument then quasi demand "facts" from Hill's prime, which you say you understand he missed with injuries, to show he was better than Pippen.

This is absurd.

Ive shown you what he did when he did come back

Which is asnine. It'd be like me trying to disprove someone saying Gale Sayers could have been an all time great running back had he not injuried his knee by me posting his declined stats of what he did when he came back from the injury as proof of him "never being able of reaching that height to begin with."

You truly don't understand anything that's going on here.

I've shown you that just cuz he score an avg of 26 ppg doesn't mean he could've continued that same consistancy based on other players that scored similar to him.

None of those players you listed were "similar" to him style wise and talent wise.

I reiterate, Grant Hill was already viewed as one of the best players in the entire NBA, perhaps even THE best, before he was hurt. Some people were starting to label him "The Next Jordan". LOL at comparing a young Grant Hill to Glen Rice.

I still stand by my claim that you NEVER watched Hill play at all.

You refuse to admit that pippen spent his prime behind jordan

No I don't. However we got to see almost two full seasons of what Pippen IN HIS PRIME, with NO JORDAN.

We never got to see Hill's prime because he was on crutches.

See the difference yet?

.

But somehow 22/9/7 is the best pippen would've ever achieved statistically.

That was achieved without Jordan. Why would I assume he could do anymore?

Your a hater. I ask you about their defense and you play the shits and giggles card?

Because, as I've explained for what seems like the 5th time now how can I rate Hill as a defender all time compared to Pippen when I can't use Hill's prime seasons to show me the peak of what he could have been? Your question didn't matter why should my answer?

And you refuse to acknowledge the clear and dominant advantage pippen has over hill defensively.

Because I don't think he would have had one?

You also must understand you and ramithesocalledbullsfan

And here we go with the lame knee jerk CCS BS.

"You don't worship the Bulls, you're not a Bulls fan". Save that for the conversations with your flunkie Bulls fans friends.

But you guys obviously don't understand mine.

I understand yours fine.

Pippen=L33t

Guys like Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Dikembe Mutombo were the only guys who could dominate games with their defense alone. .

Ben Wallace was a horseshit man to man defender. He was great in the Pistons system because he had great help side defenders in a very good defensive system.

Wallace is the most overrated defender of the last 20 years.

I wouldn't even put Wallace in the same sentence as Hakeem, Dikembe, and Howard. Hell, Rodman was far and away a betetr defensive player than Wallace..and it's not close.

 

[97Bulls]

Your pathetic. This is the a big reason as to why I don't like going back and forth over the internet. You take everything I said out of context. I tole you allready that you and rami are comming from different points of view. Im having a conversation with rami as to who was the better scorer. And he's is using hills one year as his point. I didn't say rice was better than hill. I said they, follow me, scored similar. Its called deductive reasoning. I guess len bias should be considered an all-time great cuz people were saying he had that much talent.

My biggest problem with you is as a so called bulls fan, you can say pippen at 29 maxed out his talent, even though he was in the middle of his prime but hill at 27 was only starting his. You don't know what hill would've done. Even saying that he was well on his way to being the best player of the time. But how impressive is that? When alot of the great 90s players were gone. From 99 to 00 the best players in the league were shaq, an old karl malone, duncan, webber, kidd, payton, hill. There really wasn't much after that. Pippen was one of the top players in a league that had olajuwan, payton, malone, robinson, shaq, barkley, jordan, stockton, hardaway, webber. Most of whom are top 15 all-time. Put hill in that mix and he'd be no better than pippen.

All I keep reading from you is but he was hurt but he was hurt. Injuries are apart of the game bro. The same way you feel hill missed a portion of his prime maybbe half. Pippen spent all of his prime with jordan. It got him wins but it cost him statistically.

 

[FirstTimer]

Your pathetic

You can't prove that's my pathetic!

For all we know it could be yours.

.

This is the a big reason as to why I don't like going back and forth over the internet.

Because you lose?

You take everything I said out of context.

I DIRECTLY QUOTED YOU in a discussion on Grant Hill and Scottie Pippen. It's not like I tried to extrapolate that into discussions of economics.

Im having a conversation with rami as to who was the better scorer.

Ok?

And you keep responding to points I made. You aren't arguing Rami's points with me. You are quoting comments I directly made and in my context. Nice try,

I didn't say rice was better than hill

I never said you did. I said you compared them.

I said they, follow me, scored similar.

Which they actualyl didn't because they had different styles of play. Looking at simply the end result on a stat sheet kind of misses the point of how they scored what they did and what kind of skill set and potential they had when they put up those points.

In Rice's "peak" scoring season he shot nearly 450 three pointers. You're treally trying to compare him as a player and a scorer to Hill? A guy who for his ENTIRE CAREER has taken just over 600.

Nice work on that horrible comparison.

I guess len bias should be considered an all-time great cuz people were saying he had that much talent.

Wow. Talk about a leap and half.

1. Len Bias never played a second of NBA basketball. Hill, before his ankles went out just as he was entering his prime, had played 6 seasons. We have a bit more data to draw from and make educated guesses and theories there don't we?

2. I never labeled Hill as an all-time great. I just insinuated thathe had the potential to be one if he hadn't gotten hurt based on where his career track was taking him.

My biggest problem with you is as a so called bulls fan

This shit again?

you can say pippen at 29 maxed out his talent

Wow. Talk about missing the point by miles and miles and miles....Pippen at 29 I feel would have been putting up similar stats through out his "prime years" 29 wasn't neccessarily a "max out" year but a pretty good indication of what he was capable of as "the man". Hill, when he got hurt was actually improving as a player and scorer. IMO if Pippen was capable of a lot more his numbers would have "exploded" more when Jordan left. They didn't. They went up and IMO he cemented himself as a Top 5 player in the NBA at the time. That's damn impressive and really fucking good. However IMO Hill had much more potential to grow as a player, and statisically then what's Pippen "jump" after Jordan left indicated that he had.

You don't know what hill would've done

No shit?

Really?

Thanks for pointing that out.

.

But how impressive is that?

Really damn impressive.

When alot of the great 90s players were gone. From 99 to 00 the best players in the league were shaq, an old karl malone, duncan, webber, kidd, payton, hill. There really wasn't much after that. Pippen was one of the top players in a league that had olajuwan, payton, malone, robinson, shaq, barkley, jordan, stockton, hardaway, webber. Most of whom are top 15 all-time. Put hill in that mix and he'd be no better than pippen.

Hill was putting up great rookie seasons against those same guys when Pippen was peaking. it's not like Hill played poorly for a few seasons, those guys retired then he lit up shitty NBA players. He had a fantastic rookie season and was good right away against those players. Way to misrepresent what actually occurred...again.

Here are the All NBA 1st teams from Hill's last three seasons before he got hurt:
1997-1998
Duncan
Jordan
Malone
O'Neal
Payton

*Hill made the All NBA 2nd team that season. Pippen was 3rd team.
As you can see Hill was already viewed as a REALLY damn good player before all those guys got old ineffective or however you want to present it.

1998-1999
Duncan
Iverson
Kidd
Malone
Mourning

*Hill made the second team this year.

1999-2000
Duncan
Garnett
Kidd
O'Neal
Payton

*Hill 2nd team again.

And then he go thurt.

The NBA was still damn strong in the late 90's and early 2000's.

Keep trying to misrepresent the facts.

. Injuries are apart of the game bro.

No duh?

The same way you feel hill missed a portion of his prime maybbe half. Pippen spent all of his prime with jordan

BUT HE DIDN'T. He had almost two full prime seasons with no Jordan around to draw from. It's not like we are left to wonder "I wonder what Pippen could do if Jordan wasn't around...." We saw it...and for the 15th time. It was damn impressive and damn good. Quit acting as though we don't have non-Jordan influenced data on Pippen to draw from. We do.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I wouldn't even put Wallace in the same sentence as Hakeem, Dikembe, and Howard. Hell, Rodman was far and away a betetr defensive player than Wallace..and it's not close.

My point was that Wallace did impact the game defensively in a way that Pippen couldn't because of his shot-blocking. I understand that Rasheed Wallace was the reason he had such major impact and won DPOY awards (Sheed being arguably the best post defender in NBA history [definitely top 5]).

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

My point was that Wallace did impact the game defensively in a way that Pippen couldn't because of his shot-blocking. I understand that Rasheed Wallace was the reason he had such major impact and won DPOY awards (Sheed being arguably the best post defender in NBA history [definitely top 5]).

 

[FirstTimer]

My point was that Wallace did impact the game defensively in a way that Pippen couldn't because of his shot-blocking. I understand that Rasheed Wallace was the reason he had such major impact and won DPOY awards (Sheed being arguably the best post defender in NBA history [definitely top 5]).

LOL.

Rodman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sheed in post defense.

Not sure how you'd Sheed top 5 at all because he'd be up against guys like Russel, Rodman, Hakeem, Wilt, Moses Malone etc. Start throwing in guys like: Thurmond, Kareem, Gilmore, Walton, Mutumbo, D. Robinson, Duncan, etc. Sheed doesn't even start to become a factor all those guys are leaps and bounds ahead of him in post defense. And it's not close and not really a debate.

Sheed to me was always a tremendous help side post defender. For a guy that got labeled as "lazy" he was a really good help defender. I was never enamored with his man to man post defense, not saying he was bad but just never blew me away.

Really not sure Sheed is an "all-time" post defender of any kind. Really good help side, solid man guy but nothing worth noting on any sort of list....If ihad to put a number on it..which would meaningless..maybe I start thinking about him at around 40 or 50 all time...and that's more than likely just to fill the list out....because I stopped caring around 20.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

LOL.

Rodman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sheed in post defense.

Not sure how you'd Sheed top 5 at all because he'd be up against guys like Russel, Rodman, Hakeem, Wilt, Moses Malone etc. Start throwing in guys like: Thurmond, Kareem, Gilmore, Walton, Mutumbo, D. Robinson, Duncan, etc. Sheed doesn't even start to become a factor all those guys are leaps and bounds ahead of him in post defense. And it's not close and not really a debate.

Sheed to me was always a tremendous help side post defender. For a guy that got labeled as "lazy" he was a really good help defender. I was never enamored with his man to man post defense, not saying he was bad but just never blew me away.

Really not sure Sheed is an "all-time" post defender of any kind. Really good help side, solid man guy but nothing worth noting on any sort of list....If ihad to put a number on it..which would meaningless..maybe I start thinking about him at around 40 or 50 all time...and that's more than likely just to fill the list out....because I stopped caring around 20.

Maybe top 5 wasn't completely thought through on my part but, to me, that was the best part of Sheed's game. His laziness was more present on the boards and he was a passive scorer who chucked up a lot of long jumpers.

Game 7 of the 2005 Finals really shows how great of a man defender Sheed was in the post. He had the strength and a LOT of length at 6'11'' to cut off the basket to whomever he was guarding. Tim Duncan had a hell of a time against him. Andrew Bynum did in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals even though he was going up against an old Sheed. However, the Celtics were crushed in embarrassing fashion on the glass and Sheed was in large part to blame.