Scottie Pippen

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Jerry stackhouse was just as prolific scorer as jordan? You should be banned for saying such. And Id avy bet you that satckhouse never took more shots than jordan. And he definately wasn't as efficient. Which is probably another reason why hill avg the rebounds he did.

And the bulls wouldn't have lost much defensively with hill in pippens place? Then why didn't hey win rami? Your saying that hill and stackhouse were as productive as jordan and pippen. Your nuts

I meant *as Pippen was. But good job catching that little typo. Doesn't prove much though.

 

[FirstTimer]

Hill played with Jerry Stackhouse who was just as prolific a scorer as Jordan was.

I understand you're trying to make a point...but.....WHAT?!

Do you think hill could still avg 20 ppg and 8 rbds with rodman and jordan playing alongside him?

Yes.

First, let say that it was unfortuante what happened to hil. But he did have 5 years in the league. He did look like he was well on hi way to superstadom. But he did have FIVE YEARS. Pippen had 1.

But those 5 years weren't prime seasons.

How are you STILL not getting this? We never saw what Hill could have done in his prime IMO because Hill never played during his prime. He was hurt. We saw maybe a glimpse the season before he got to Orlando but then the wheels fell off and his ankles fell apart. We never saw Hills prime...we basically only saw what should have been his ascent to his prime then his down years post injury.

This is where I question your loyalty as a bulls fan.

You're an absolute meatball then.

LOL at questioning my loyalty to the Bulls because I believe had Hill been able to actually play in his prime he would have been viewed as a better player than Pippen.

You make concessions that kobes production was limited cuz of shaq, even though kobe was still avg around 20 shots a game and even took more shots than shaq.

Shaq was STILL SCORING POINTS. It makes pretty good sense that had the Lakers not had Shaq during those seasons that Kobe would have picked up a few more points since Shaq didn't need to get his touches

Shaq didn't hinder kobe from shooting.

He did if Shaq wasn't there and Kobe could have put up more shots.

But say fail to admit pippens prime was spent behind jordan.

I never "failed" to admit that. You're seriously not reading and your Pippen jock riding is preventing you from even following along. I admitted we saw Pippen in his prime for a year and half and I called him a fantastic basketball player but I still stand by my feeling that had Hill not spend ages 27-32 hurt he would have put up better numbers and in the end been seen as a better player.

Why not check rami when he says that pippen and hill were similar defensively?

Because I don't feel like it?

I've spent the better part of my stay at this site checking Rami and it grows tiring. I'm up for something new.

What's more farfetched, saying that hill and pippen were similar statistically or that hill and pippen were similar defensivley?

Neither is far fetched IMO. Hill was a fantastic defender in his own right. Pippen was better but not by as large a margin you are implying and again..if we had gotten to see Hill's prime I think we would have seen that bear itself out.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

1999-00 Detroit Pistons Roster and Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

If it wasn't for Jerry Stackhouse, Hill probably would have averaged well over 30 points per-game that last season.

Pippen wasn't that great of a scorer by a long shot.

 

[97Bulls]

The fact is we saw 1 year of hills prime as far as age due to injury. And we saw 1 1/2 years of pippens prime.

Hills lost his prime to injury. Although he wasn't he did have about 3 years of prime play if we are to go by the normal avg of a players prime which is about 25 to 32. That's not a definate though. Some guys improve as they get older. Look at dirk. Some guys max out at 30. Look at james worthy. At 29, he couldn't even start ahead of 23 yr old rookie george lynch.

Pippen spent his prime playing behind jordan. It seems to me you guys think 94 was the best pippen would ever be. I say it was the tip of the iceberg. And I admit the same for hill.

Even more, hill came back and played in about 70 games and went right back to his normal 20 ppg. Even shooting a higher percentage to boot. Facts are facts, he spiked. I think that 26 ppg was not the norm for hill.

 

[97Bulls]

1999-00 Detroit Pistons Roster and Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

If it wasn't for Jerry Stackhouse, Hill probably would have averaged well over 30 points per-game that last season.

Pippen wasn't that great of a scorer by a long shot.

Hill took more shots than stackhouse. What's your point? Hill took aalmost 20 shots a game that year. The highest pippen ever got was about 17.

 

[FirstTimer]

The fact is we saw 1 year of hills prime as far as age due to injury. And we saw 1 1/2 years of pippens prime.

NO SHIT?!?!? Really?

Where did you get that idea from? I can't name another person here who said something similar?!?!?!?

Hills lost his prime to injury.

See above.

That's not a definate though. Some guys improve as they get older. Look at dirk. Some guys max out at 30. Look at james worthy. At 29, he couldn't even start ahead of 23 yr old rookie george lynch

Completely inaccurate. The season Worthy didn't crack the starting lineup for at least a vast majority of the season since he became a full time starter in 1983 was his final year, at age 32, in 1993-1994 when his knees were a wreck.

Where do you come up with your bullshit at?

Pippen spent his prime playing behind jordan. It seems to me you guys think 94 was the best pippen would ever be.

I'd say it was. And it was damn fucking good. I think 1994-1995 he was one of only 4 players in history to lead his team in PPG, RPG, APG and SPG.

That's really fucking good and I think that's a really good glimpse at what Pippen was capable of.

Even more, hill came back and played in about 70 games and went right back to his normal 20 ppg.

THREE YEARS LATER.

You really think by that time the constant injuries hadn't robbed him of some ability? You really think that is an accurate glimpse of what a "never been injured for 2-3 years Hill" was capable of during his prime? You're really going to take that stance?

Come on.

Facts are facts, he spiked. I think that 26 ppg was not the norm for hill.

He spiked because of injury. Those are the facts. You clearly can't follow along.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

take off the red glasses....hill was just overall a more skilled player and had he not been hampered with injuries...he would have been in the HOF easily...i mean he's averaging 13 points per game and he's 38 and has a history of injuries....so you can tell what kind of talent he possessed...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Hill took more shots than stackhouse. What's your point? Hill took aalmost 20 shots a game that year. The highest pippen ever got was about 17.

Pippen averaged only 18 shot attempts and like 6 FT attempts despite the fact Jordan left and he would have had plenty more opportunities. He simply wasn't capable of being a high volume scorer. Hill was.

Hill averaged just a shade over 19 shot attempts and like 8 or 9 FT attempts per-game. And that was sharing the possessions with a guy like Stackhouse- who was no slouch.

That should tell you all you need to know about who was the better scorer.

 

[97Bulls]

Pippen averaged only 18 shot attempts and like 6 FT attempts despite the fact Jordan left and he would have had plenty more opportunities. He simply wasn't capable of being a high volume scorer. Hill was.

Hill averaged just a shade over 19 shot attempts and like 8 or 9 FT attempts per-game. And that was sharing the possessions with a guy like Stackhouse- who was no slouch.

That should tell you all you need to know about who was the better scorer.

That doesn't mean hill was a better scorer. Pippen cerried a much bigger lad than hill. And hill wasn't a winner. He could never lead a team and never lead a team as far as pippen did. And don't discount the toll playing the type of defense pippen played takes on your energy. And even still they were similar in scoring.

 

[97Bulls]

take off the red glasses....hill was just overall a more skilled player and had he not been hampered with injuries...he would have been in the HOF easily...i mean he's averaging 13 points per game and he's 38 and has a history of injuries....so you can tell what kind of talent he possessed...

What hill is doing at 38 is amazing. But don't discount that his body hasn't had to take the physical toll of playing a full 15 years.

 

[97Bulls]

I understand you're trying to make a point...but.....WHAT?!




Yes.



But those 5 years weren't prime seasons.

How are you STILL not getting this? We never saw what Hill could have done in his prime IMO because Hill never played during his prime. He was hurt. We saw maybe a glimpse the season before he got to Orlando but then the wheels fell off and his ankles fell apart. We never saw Hills prime...we basically only saw what should have been his ascent to his prime then his down years post injury.



You're an absolute meatball then.

LOL at questioning my loyalty to the Bulls because I believe had Hill been able to actually play in his prime he would have been viewed as a better player than Pippen.


Shaq was STILL SCORING POINTS. It makes pretty good sense that had the Lakers not had Shaq during those seasons that Kobe would have picked up a few more points since Shaq didn't need to get his touches

He did if Shaq wasn't there and Kobe could have put up more shots.


I never "failed" to admit that. You're seriously not reading and your Pippen jock riding is preventing you from even following along. I admitted we saw Pippen in his prime for a year and half and I called him a fantastic basketball player but I still stand by my feeling that had Hill not spend ages 27-32 hurt he would have put up better numbers and in the end been seen as a better player.




Because I don't feel like it?

I've spent the better part of my stay at this site checking Rami and it grows tiring. I'm up for something new.


Neither is far fetched IMO. Hill was a fantastic defender in his own right. Pippen was better but not by as large a margin you are implying and again..if we had gotten to see Hill's prime I think we would have seen that bear itself out.

My bad with worthy. What I was trying to say is that by 29 which should've been the middle of his prime, he was finishing. And by the 32, which should've started his twilight, he wasnt even starting.

And im not arguing that hill couldn't put up better numbers barring injuries.

What I am saying is SO COULD PIPPEN if he wasn't playing with the greatest scorer and rebounder ever. And your a fool if you think hill would've even got enough shots in that offense and with jordan to even come close to 26 ppg. And there's also no way he grabs 10 rebounds with rodman alone grabbing more than his starting PF and C combined.

And what's more is your view on defense. Hill wasn't a bad defender, but he wasn't close to pippen. And that's what trumps this debate. I mean, if pippen is the greatest perimeter defender ever, and arguably top 10 with all player included, where is hill if by your account theyre close. Even in his playing days? Im sure I could think of about 10 swing men that were better defenders than him.

And I don't care about how you feel. You sound like a female. I thought we are trying to get an understanding. You sound like your trying to win an arggument. If someone is saying something outlandish, step in.

But still, where do you rank hill all-time defensively?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

That doesn't mean hill was a better scorer. Pippen cerried a much bigger lad than hill.

Yes, it does.

And hill wasn't a winner.

We've already been over this. The word "winner" is subjective, and, it already has been pointed out to you that Hill was a winner.

He could never lead a team

Wrong. Hill led a team. And he did it quite well, too. Pippen led the Bulls for 18 months; Hill led the Pistons for about 5 years.

and never lead a team as far as pippen did.

Most reasonable basketball fans would come to the conclusion that was because Pippen had a LOT more help from teammates than Hill did.

And don't discount the toll playing the type of defense pippen played takes on your energy

This proves once and for all that you never watched Hill play. Pippen would guard the opposing teams' best wing scorer; Hill would also guard the opposing teams' best wing scorer.

And even still they were similar in scoring.

No, they were not. There was practically nothing on offense that Hill could not do noticeably better than Pippen.

 

[97Bulls]

I took the liberty of look up the offensive production of some players that scored similar to hill.

Glen Rice
22,19,21,22,21,27,22,18. Notice he hit 27 and never repeated it

Kevin Garnett
21,23,22,21,23,24,22,22,22. Kg spiked at 24

Tim Duncan
21,22,23,22,26,23,22,20. Duncan hit 26 and never repeated

Mitch Richmond
22,22,24,23,22,23,23,26,23,20. Richmond hit his spke at 31

Reggie Miller
25,23,21,21,20,20,21,22,20. Miller peaked early and never could reach his high of 25 ppg

When jordan retired, piippen started what probably would've been a scoring path similar to these players. He was even avg 23 ppg in 95 before jordan came back and settled in at 21. I see pippen without jordan as having scoring seasons of

22, 23, 25, 22,20 and the start his decline

Hill actuall had the lowest of these guys. Even lower than pippen based on the path pippen was taking before jordan came back
20,20,21,21,21,26.

And to say he would've been a 30 pt score is stupid. I've given 5 examples of players that were every bit the scorers of hill if not more. And none of them came close to 30 ppg.

When I get a chance, ill list the scoring seasons of some guys who did hit 30 ppg. And you'll se the difference.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

^Wow. Rice was never the scorer Hill was. Neither was Reggie. Or Richmond. And even though it is sketchy to compare big men to perimeter scorers, neither were KG or TD.

Hill trumps all of the wingmen you mentioned both offensively and especially defensively.

Your fatal mistake was making this purely about misleading and highly over-used per-game statistics. You made yourself out to look like a complete fool.

 

[97Bulls]

Yes, it does.



We've already been over this. The word "winner" is subjective, and, it already has been pointed out to you that Hill was a winner.



Wrong. Hill led a team. And he did it quite well, too. Pippen led the Bulls for 18 months; Hill led the Pistons for about 5 years.



Most reasonable basketball fans would come to the conclusion that was because Pippen had a LOT more help from teammates than Hill did.



This proves once and for all that you never watched Hill play. Pippen would guard the opposing teams' best wing scorer; Hill would also guard the opposing teams' best wing scorer.



No, they were not. There was practically nothing on offense that Hill could not do noticeably better than Pippen.

What are you talking about? You said yourself that hill had stackhouse. Pippen never had a guy remotly close to that caiber of a player. And it wasn't just pippens on the ball defense. It was his help defense, his being able to play full court press, trap, play post d. All things that's what makes pippen the greatest defender ever from the perimeter. Hill never played defense like that.

And I don't know how it was pointed out. He never won. He wasn't even the best player on that duke team. He wasn't even the 3rd best player on that team. Bobby hurley and christian laetner were. And regardless, Its college. Pippen went farther in his one year leading the bulls than hill ever did in his 5 years leading the pistons. And hill had joe dumars and otis thorpe. Both won championships. Pippen had bj armsrtong and grant. Paxson and cartwirht were old and rarely ever used.

 

[97Bulls]

^Wow. Rice was xxnever the scorer Hill was. Neither was Reggie. Or Richmond. And even though it is sketchy to compare big men to perimeter scorers, neither were KG or TD.

Hill trumps all of the wingmen you mentioned both offensively and especially defensively.

Your fatal mistake was making this purely about misleading and highly over-used per-game statistics. You made yourself out to look like a complete fool.

Ok, so let me get this straight. Hills a better scorer than pippen based on hill scoring 26 ppg one season. But all thses other guys who were in the same role as hill (a first option) and put up better offensive number than hill weren't? Even more they all played in the same era. So they're playing under the same rules. If your to blind to see that, I can't help you.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

What are you talking about? You said yourself that hill had stackhouse.

in 1997, DET won 54 games before Stackhouse was even apart of the team. And I was referring to Stackhouse as a scorer; not as a complete player.

Pippen never had a guy remotly close to that caiber of a player.

The Pippen-led Bulls also had Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, and B.J. Armstrong. Hill had an aged Joe Dumars, Linsey Hunter, and Otis Thorpe. Not much of a comparison.

And it wasn't just pippens on the ball defense. It was his help defense, his being able to play full court press, trap, play post d. All things that's what makes pippen the greatest defender ever from the perimeter. Hill never played defense like that.

Hill did play defense like that and still does except now he's a lot slower and can't leap as high or as quickly. The only real difference between Hill and Pippen defensively was Scottie's length was ridiculous for a SF and he contested a lot of shots and passes and got his hands in a lot more passing lanes. You must think that Pippen affected the game defensively like Dikembe Mutombo or Ben Wallace. Newsflash: he didn't.

And I don't know how it was pointed out. He never won. He wasn't even the best player on that duke team. He wasn't even the 3rd best player on that team. Bobby hurley and christian laetner were.

hahahaha that is a nice joke.

And regardless, Its college. Pippen went farther in his one year leading the bulls than hill ever did in his 5 years leading the pistons.

You are getting very redundant. Pippen had more talent helping him and you are pretending like he won a championship with the Jordanless Bulls; he did not. Hill won 54 games with:

hill had joe dumars

old

and otis thorpe.

Nowhere near as good as Horace Grant

Both won championships.

duh?

Pippen had bj armsrtong and grant.

Also won championships... in fact, they both won MORE rings than Thorpe or Dumars. And you also forgot Kukoc very conveniently.

Paxson and cartwirht were old and rarely ever used.

Nor did they need to be.

If late 90's Hill was on the Bulls in 1993-94, they probably win the championship.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Ok, so let me get this straight. Hills a better scorer than pippen based on hill scoring 26 ppg one season. But all thses other guys who were in the same role as hill (a first option) and put up better offensive number than hill weren't? Even more they all played in the same era. So they're playing under the same rules. If your to blind to see that, I can't help you.

You're too blind to see that your insistent use of per-game stats expose you for your obvious ignorance of how any of these players played, who they played with, and why they put up the statistics they did.

 

[FirstTimer]

My bad with worthy. What I was trying to say is that by 29 which should've been the middle of his prime, he was finishing.

Worthy averaged a career best 21.4 PPG that season and by your own admissions prime is from 25-32. Worthy had a tremendous prime and then his knees went out at the very tail end of your "prime years". The point you tried to prove means nothing. The thing that "finished" Worthy was injuries, not some natural erosion of skill while healthy.

And by the 32, which should've started his twilight, he wasnt even starting.

Because his knees were awful.

I'm seriously questioning if you have EVER seen a game that Pippen didn't play in.

And im not arguing that hill couldn't put up better numbers barring injuries.

What I am saying is SO COULD PIPPEN if he wasn't playing with the greatest scorer and rebounder ever

Pippens prime seasons were not spent with Rodman on the roster. Hell, Pippen was starting to break down a bit physically by the time the Bulls went on their second run.

Pippen had two seasons playing in the heart of your prescribed prime years as "the guy" with no Jordan and no Rodman and we saw what he did. And it was damn good. You bitching about him playing "behind Jordan and with Rodman" doesn't mean a thing because he played almost two full two prime age seasons without either of them.

And your a fool if you think hill would've even got enough shots in that offense and with jordan to even come close to 26 ppg.

I never said Hill would average 26 in the offense with Jordan. Awesome job trying to make up an argument.

And there's also no way he grabs 10 rebounds with rodman alone grabbing more than his starting PF and C combined.

Also never said that. Congrats on trying to invent something else.

I don't know how you found this site but you REALLY need to step up your game if you expect to stick around here. Your last two posts have been basically nothing but misinformation and made up BS.

And what's more is your view on defense. Hill wasn't a bad defender, but he wasn't close to pippen. And that's what trumps this debate. I mean, if pippen is the greatest perimeter defender ever, and arguably top 10 with all player included, where is hill if by your account theyre close.

I don't know because as I mentioned above we never saw what type of peak defender Hill could be because HE MISSED HIS PRIME WITH INJURIES.

That's what this statement means:

if we had gotten to see Hill's prime I think we would have seen that bear itself out.

For christsakes.



.

I thought we are trying to get an understanding

You thought wrong.

If I "understood" or agreed with any of your points I'd put a pistol in my mouth.

But still, where do you rank hill all-time defensively?

Irrelevant question because you missed the point of my statement.

But just for shits and giggles. I rank Hill #1 overall.

EVER.

 

[FirstTimer]

I think 97Bulls is the one waiter in the Chicago area that Pippen tipped.