Should Rodman's Number be retired?

[houheffna]

Then start a "Retire Horace Grant's Number" thread and begin your campaign, if you believe it so much.

Try reading the statement in context next time, then you won't make such an ignorant rebuttal.

 

[Crystallas]

Try reading the statement in context next time, then you won't make such an ignorant rebuttal.

:clap: Case closed, right? I mean, that's your opinion, right? LOL!!!!!!

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I saw nearly every game that Rodman was a Bull and I stood in a bar waiting in line for his autograph for 4 or 5 hours... and paid $60 for it. I loved the guy but he still shouldn't have his jersey retired by the team.

 

[Crystallas]

I saw nearly every game that Rodman was a Bull and I stood in a bar waiting in line for his autograph for 4 or 5 hours. I loved the guy but he still shouldn't have his jersey retired by the team.

And I strongly disagree. It's simple as that. I would retire Rodman's number in a hearbeat if I could.

We've been down this road. I know what follows. hou repeats himself, tries to make it as if his opinion is somehow better than anyone else's opinion. At least you don't do that with me, Rami. You have your opinion, I have mine.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And I strongly disagree. It's simple as that. I would retire Rodman's number in a hearbeat if I could.

We've been down this road. I know what follows. hou repeats himself, tries to make it as if his opinion is somehow better than anyone else's opinion. At least you don't do that with me, Rami. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Well, I'll just state the reason I don't believe it a little bit more thoroughly and maybe you will see where I am coming from a little better?

I believe that retiring a player's jersey should only be done if that player has either played with a team for a long period of time or had a huge couple of years playing with that team. Rodman was at a borderline all-star level pretty much the entire time he was with the Bulls. The only thing is that "entire time" was only three years... Kirk Hinrich was actually the best player on the Bulls for a couple of seasons and he was with the team for seven years. If you retire Rodman's, you really could/should retire Kirk's too. Same story with Luol Deng. And Deng has been at near borderline all-star level himself.

If you retire Rodman's jersey, it sets a dangerous precedent because then you are risking having pretty much any decent player to ever play for the Bulls hanging in the rafters. Look at the Celtics' and Lakers' retired names and compare them to the Bulls' would-be deserving names if Rodman gets that honor: Van Lier, Gilmore, Grant, Kukoc, Deng, Hinrich... Hell, the Lakers only have like 8 names retired. And that team has had a LOT more superstar players than the Bulls have had.

 

[Crystallas]

Well, I'll just state the reason I don't believe it a little bit more thoroughly and maybe you will see where I am coming from a little better?

I believe that retiring a player's jersey should only be done if that player has either played with a team for a long period of time or had a huge couple of years playing with that team. Rodman was at a borderline all-star level pretty much the entire time he was with the Bulls. The only thing is that "entire time" was only three years... Kirk Hinrich was actually the best player on the Bulls for a couple of seasons and he was with the team for seven years. If you retire Rodman's, you really could/should retire Kirk's too. Same story with Luol Deng. And Deng has been at near borderline all-star level himself.

If you retire Rodman's jersey, it sets a dangerous precedent because then you are risking having pretty much any decent player to ever play for the Bulls hanging in the rafters. Look at the Celtics' and Lakers' retired names and compare them to the Bulls' would-be deserving names if Rodman gets that honor: Van Lier, Gilmore, Grant, Kukoc, Deng, Hinrich... Hell, the Lakers only have like 8 names retired. And that team has had a LOT more superstar players than the Bulls have had.

I'm going beyond the numbers. Rodman had a world wide impact as a Bull, bigger than Jordan for a few months, absolutely no doubt about it. You could listen to the radio, read the paper, watch TV, and hear Jordan's name here and there. But Rodman would dominate every segment possible. It didn't last forever, but that did happen. Rodman wasn't going to be allowed to be an all-star, he should have been, but the league wasn't going to let that happen. He still put up a 16.1rpg season, among 2 other stellar rebound years, and leaving as the best RPG player ever in team history, including the pre-ABA rule era. His hair started in San Antonio, but it wasn't anywhere near as wild until he came here, and that was a phenomenon in itself. Retire a jersey based on hair? No on, the whole 3 years. For the entire time he was here, he added something to the team on and off the court. The point is, he was a unique player. Plus, you don't ever ignore a 72 win team.

As far as the Lakers go, that's their argument to make. The Celtics retired everyone, so looking at another team isn't a great example. And I am by no means saying we should be like the Celtics, but I don't want to be as stingy as other teams either.

 

[Gunzaan]

Short answer: No.

Rodman was so much more then the Bulls.

 

[houheffna]

:clap: Case closed, right? I mean, that's your opinion, right? LOL!!!!!!

Oh boy....

My opinion is NOT that Grant should have his number retired, my opinion is that neither of them should have their number retired. But the arguments used to support Rodman can definitely be used in support of Horace Grant. I disagree with those arguments...and the idea that I should start a new thread for that reason is asinine.

 

[Crystallas]

Oh boy....

My opinion is NOT that Grant should have his number retired, my opinion is that neither of them should have their number retired. But the arguments used to support Rodman can definitely be used in support of Horace Grant. I disagree with those arguments...and the idea that I should start a new thread for that reason is asinine.

Oh baby?...

Okay, I agree. Grant's number shouldn't be retired. He disowned this franchise. Rodman didn't. For some reason it's okay for you to play stupid, but when someone else makes a mockery of your stupid comment, you're all butt hurt. hou, you are the most defensive person on CCS. Give it up. Guess what, not everyone is going to agree with you, or even validate your opinion. Hell, I have tried in the past to be respectful of your views, but you don't share that same level of respect for others, unless they agree with you. So do your best, let's see your next contradiction. Should we open the doors to retiring Elton Brand now, if we foolish fans support retiring 91? I'm really curious, how far are you willing to stretch this. :shrug:

 

[houheffna]

And I strongly disagree. It's simple as that. I would retire Rodman's number in a hearbeat if I could.

We've been down this road. I know what follows. hou repeats himself, tries to make it as if his opinion is somehow better than anyone else's opinion. At least you don't do that with me, Rami. You have your opinion, I have mine.

If calling your attempt of philosophy stupid and pointless means my opinion is better than yours....OK!!! But not once did I say my opinion was better than yours, you are creating a straw man argument because from the beginning, your point was....silly.

YOU tried to push your opinion as superior to others because you watched him and dared to insinuate that you might have some level of expertise on the subject because of it. I simply gave my opinion and was pretty much done with it. I personally don't think Harold Baines' number should be retired...that's just me. Baines' was one of my favorite players, but I don't think his number should have been retired.

And the idea that Rodman had a bigger impact world wide than Jordan...because he wore different color hair...and a damn wedding dress...is a bit much also. Rodman was famous for being a sideshow. But in the allstar games from 1996-1998...THE FANS DIDN'T VOTE RODMAN IN!!!. Not even close. At least 5 forwards garnered more votes per year...at least 5. Another example of your being there meaning absolutely nothing when you misrepresent what actually happened in that time.

Rodman's fame started where Jordan's ended. Jordan didn't do post game shows on Sunday nights. Rodman did....Jordan would never appear on SNL between games in NYC...Rodman did. Jordan shunned the lights off the floor. He didn't need it. He was a legend already. His worldwide impact is still felt. He still has the most jerseys sold. Is Rodman top 10? Hell no...

 

[houheffna]

Oh baby?...

Okay, I agree. Grant's number shouldn't be retired. He disowned this franchise. Rodman didn't. For some reason it's okay for you to play stupid, but when someone else makes a mockery of your stupid comment, you're all butt hurt. hou, you are the most defensive person on CCS. Give it up. Guess what, not everyone is going to agree with you, or even validate your opinion. Hell, I have tried in the past to be respectful of your views, but you don't share that same level of respect for others, unless they agree with you. So do your best, let's see your next contradiction. Should we open the doors to retiring Elton Brand now, if we foolish fans support retiring 91? I'm really curious, how far are you willing to stretch this. :shrug:

I wasn't being defensive at all...I just said your attempt at being Socrates didn't make sense. And to compare people who have opinions on the subject but didn't "experience" the players they speak of to a parrot is disrespectful of their views...is there any other way to look at it?

 

[Crystallas]

I wasn't being defensive at all...I just said your attempt at being Socrates didn't make sense. And to compare people who have opinions on the subject but didn't "experience" the players they speak of to a parrot is disrespectful of their views...is there any other way to look at it?

Not defensive? LOL, the only time you post, is to tell other people that their opinion doesn't line up with yours. You can say that you're not defensive all you want, but that doesn't make it any less true. Heck, you're defensive about being called out for being defensive.
And Socrates? :rolling: Give me a break. Again, you're still butthurt by that parrot comment, and then try to return the favor by saying that I'm attempting to be Socrates. I'm still waiting for your next connection. It's like playing Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. Horace Grant, Artis Gilmore, Norm Van Lier, Babe Ruth, Dennis Rodman. WHAM!

 

[houheffna]

Not defensive? LOL, the only time you post, is to tell other people that their opinion doesn't line up with yours. You can say that you're not defensive all you want, but that doesn't make it any less true. Heck, you're defensive about being called out for being defensive.
And Socrates? :rolling: Give me a break. Again, you're still butthurt by that parrot comment, and then try to return the favor by saying that I'm attempting to be Socrates. I'm still waiting for your next connection. It's like playing Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. Horace Grant, Artis Gilmore, Norm Van Lier, Babe Ruth, Dennis Rodman. WHAM!

I posted in this forum to give my opinion. Nobody had a problem with it. As a matter of fact, the argument I had with you in this forum had NOTHING to do with my opinion. I had a problem with you summarily dismissing others opinions based on age and whether they "experienced" Dennis Rodman.

And saying that Horace "disowned" the franchise and using that as a reason to not retire his number is ludicrous. Rodman caused more problems for the Bulls organization than Horace ever did. Plus, Scottie Pippen didn't disown the franchise??? Horace left to make more money. Reinsdorf and the Bulls made peace with Horace Grant many years ago...they are not retiring his number. His name is on the championship banners, like Rodman's is. That is as far as it should go...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I'm going beyond the numbers. Rodman had a world wide impact as a Bull, bigger than Jordan for a few months, absolutely no doubt about it. You could listen to the radio, read the paper, watch TV, and hear Jordan's name here and there. But Rodman would dominate every segment possible. It didn't last forever, but that did happen. Rodman wasn't going to be allowed to be an all-star, he should have been, but the league wasn't going to let that happen. He still put up a 16.1rpg season, among 2 other stellar rebound years, and leaving as the best RPG player ever in team history, including the pre-ABA rule era. His hair started in San Antonio, but it wasn't anywhere near as wild until he came here, and that was a phenomenon in itself. Retire a jersey based on hair? No on, the whole 3 years. For the entire time he was here, he added something to the team on and off the court. The point is, he was a unique player. Plus, you don't ever ignore a 72 win team.

As far as the Lakers go, that's their argument to make. The Celtics retired everyone, so looking at another team isn't a great example. And I am by no means saying we should be like the Celtics, but I don't want to be as stingy as other teams either.

Rodman did have an all-star season in Detroit and won a DPOY award. I'm not going strictly by the numbers either, otherwise I would not have labeled him as a borderline all-star for the time he was with the Bulls. Anybody who looked at his per-game numbers would think of him as a one-dimensional player, which he was not. He was a great player, and there is no denying that. If Rodman had been at his 1996 or 1997 level for more than 3 seasons than I would have a hard, hard time not retiring his jersey. I just believe three years isn't enough.

The reason Rodman was such a huge name wasn't because he was a great player (although it stemmed from that). He was a pop culture phenom, and a lot of it was for reasons that we, as Bulls' fans or Rodman, should not be very proud of. The guy was a nut-case who partied non-stop and even had his own bizarre one-man wedding ceremony.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Rodman deserves a way of being honored by the team without having the honor of having his #91 hanging in the rafters. That really only should be reserved for players who played for the team for more than three seasons. Even if there was a player who played for the Bulls for only three seasons and won a couple championships and 3 MVP awards, I'd still need to take my time and think about whether or not it would be acceptable to retire his jersey as a Bull (I'd personally probably do it). Rodman just wasn't anywhere near on that level when he was with the Bulls. His last year with the team, he wasn't even as good as Kukoc. The guy was crazy... during the '98 Finals, he would travel to-and-from Salt Lake City, UT, and Las Vegas. He was partying all night before Game 6 as well... and he didn't exactly have a great game either. This is a player we should hang from the rafters? Retiring Van Lier's and Gilmore's jerseys would definitely be a pre-requisite and that ship has pretty much sailed and would/should have happened long ago if the team was already going to do it. Retiring their's now would seem almost like the team is looking for a reason to justify retiring Rodman's. Not to mention Grant and Kukoc... who were never quite deserving all-star players who did a lot more for the team in terms of winning games than Rodman did.

 

[Crystallas]

That is as far as it should go...

Useless opinion is still useless.

 

[Crystallas]

Rodman did have an all-star season in Detroit and won a DPOY award. I'm not going strictly by the numbers either, otherwise I would not have labeled him as a borderline all-star for the time he was with the Bulls. Anybody who looked at his per-game numbers would think of him as a one-dimensional player, which he was not. He was a great player, and there is no denying that. If Rodman had been at his 1996 or 1997 level for more than 3 seasons than I would have a hard, hard time not retiring his jersey. I just believe three years isn't enough.

The reason Rodman was such a huge name wasn't because he was a great player (although it stemmed from that). He was a pop culture phenom, and a lot of it was for reasons that we, as Bulls' fans or Rodman, should not be very proud of. The guy was a nut-case who partied non-stop and even had his own bizarre one-man wedding ceremony.

He wasn't going to be allowed to be an all-star after he went on the NBA's radar. That was 91ish when Dennis slowly became the menace. The 3 years argument is the only valid one that I can accept. But I still would make a special exception for Rodman. 91 isn't exactly going to be worn anytime soon in Chicago, anyways. Even fan-fighting Artest fell short on those attempts LOL!

 

[houheffna]

Useless opinion is still useless.

My point exactly...it doesn't matter whether you were "there" or not...a dumb ass opinion can and will be a dumb ass opinion. So there is no need to shut someone down for not seeing every game Norm Van Lier played. Research and reference is a beautiful thing.

 

[Crystallas]

My point exactly...it doesn't matter whether you were "there" or not...a dumb ass opinion can and will be a dumb ass opinion. So there is no need to shut someone down for not seeing every game Norm Van Lier played. Research and reference is a beautiful thing.

Wow, just wow. You still don't pick up, do you? I have no problem with you having a "dumb ass" opinion, but I have a problem when you project your "dumb ass" opinion.
And no, not experiencing NVL and Gilmore play is a big factor to measuring someone's opinion to whether they should have been retired. In 20 years, the hou clone will make a case for Stacey King and Bill Wennington getting a retired number. I can read a book on surgery, but I don't see anyone lining up for me to give them a CABG.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I believe that the Bulls shouldn't allow anybody to wear #91 while, at the same time, not hang it in the rafters. That is as far as I will go.