Soriano's power drop a concern?

[CODE_BLUE56]

Thats where we disagree. As i said before Wilson to me isnt what you call an ACE while Prince is a superstar bat that will only be 28. So i take the younger player that is a superstar over a SP that you can find around same statitics for less money. If we can get both great but only one then i want Prince

i agree here..but i also with agree dabs that cj wilson would be a great acquisition..he is another guy that can go 6-7 innings and get you 3 ER or less

Cj wilson,Zam,Garza,and Demp would be a nice top 4 of the starting rotation..of course the pen still needs improvement or the starting rotation's performances mean little not to mention we need wells or someone else to step up as the last guy in the rotation

no cj wilson is not an ace..but he's a damn good pitcher...really pitching well right now..not too old either

of course i always argue that the cubs really need an ace to REALLY be competitive and you know do the unspeakable and go far into the playoffs..maybe even win it all(dreaming of course)...but i'd rather have 4 pitchers like wilson,garza,zam,and dempster than have say halladay,another good(not great pitcher) and then a bunch of crap..(not saying that those 4 will lead the cubs to the WS but i am starting to think that if we have those guys pitching consistently well an ace pitcher will be less of a need)

anywho...what kind of money is wilson wanting? wonder if we could get wilson and fielder(dreaming again of course)..

 

[daddies3angels]

Well I don't see any SP with a low 3 ERA averaging over 8 K/9 in the AL that are available next year beside Wilson. ACE is such an arbitrary title, and while he might not be in that first tier of elite starters. He has to be considered a step above Matt Garza given his performance this year. A rotation of Wilson, Garza, Dempster, Zambrano, Wells is actually a pretty solid rotation. And we just have to look to the southside to see how a team with good pitching and a below average lineup can hang around in a division race.

Here a list of guys that i go after IF they sign Prince and cant afford Wilson:

Buerhle (only be 33 and loves the midwest, and should do wonders in NL)

Chris Carpenter ( I would give him 2 year deal)

Edwin Jackson (only being 28 and has really good stuff)

Now IF they sign Wilson and cant afford Prince or Pujols

Pena (we know how that worked out this year)



So my point is that you can fill SP spot up but having a 28 y/o SUPERSTAR is tough to find.

 

[daddies3angels]

i agree here..but i also with agree dabs that cj wilson would be a great acquisition..he is another guy that can go 6-7 innings and get you 3 ER or less

Cj wilson,Zam,Garza,and Demp would be a nice top 4 of the starting rotation..of course the pen still needs improvement or the starting rotation's performances mean little not to mention we need wells or someone else to step up as the last guy in the rotation

no cj wilson is not an ace..but he's a damn good pitcher...really pitching well right now..not too old either

of course i always argue that the cubs really need an ace to REALLY be competitive and you know do the unspeakable and go far into the playoffs..maybe even win it all(dreaming of course)...but i'd rather have 4 pitchers like wilson,garza,zam,and dempster than have say halladay,another good(not great pitcher) and then a bunch of crap..(not saying that those 4 will lead the cubs to the WS but i am starting to think that if we have those guys pitching consistently well an ace pitcher will be less of a need)

anywho...what kind of money is wilson wanting? wonder if we could get wilson and fielder(dreaming again of course)..

Assuming he get around 12-15 mil. I would think TEX would be huge bidders to keep him since they always need pitching and he has proven to do well there

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Assuming he get around 12-15 mil. I would think TEX would be huge bidders to keep him since they always need pitching and he has proven to do well there

hmm...guess its one or the other when it comes to fielder and wilson unless we dump a couple of contracts

 

[daddies3angels]

hmm...guess its one or the other when it comes to fielder and wilson unless we dump a couple of contracts

Thats what Dab and i thinking and we disagree who to go after. To me Wilson be a guy to get if Cubs only 1 piece away cause he 31. While Fielder 28 and if Cubs suck next 2 years he still be only 30 for when they start getting better. Would think they could contend in the next 3-4 years which put Fielder 30-31 while Wilson would be 33-34 and most pitchers start declining then.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

i'd go for fielder or pujols first and then wilson

but thats jmo

 

[daddies3angels]

i'd go for fielder or pujols first and then wilson

but thats jmo

I changed my mind on Pujols. Beginning of year i was saying HAVE to get Pujols cause how many times do you get chance to get top 10 player of ALL TIME. BUT now im thinking Fielder is better option just cause of Age. Now if Cubs were only that 1 guy away then hell ya Pujols but there not.

 

[daddies3angels]

After thinking about it, Cubs be better if they get Fielder and Edwin Jackson then CJ Wilson and Pena... With Fielder and Jackson getting 2 guys that are only 28 while if you went Pena and Wilson getting 2 guys in mid 30's. I think i just found out the 2 guys who i want for sure in this year FA

 

[dabynsky]

Here a list of guys that i go after IF they sign Prince and cant afford Wilson:

Buerhle (only be 33 and loves the midwest, and should do wonders in NL)

Chris Carpenter ( I would give him 2 year deal)

Edwin Jackson (only being 28 and has really good stuff)

Now IF they sign Wilson and cant afford Prince or Pujols

Pena (we know how that worked out this year)



So my point is that you can fill SP spot up but having a 28 y/o SUPERSTAR is tough to find.

Well lets go through the list of the guys that you listed here:
Chris Carpenter Age 36 3.68 ERA 99 ERA+ 0.7 HR/9 2.1 BB/9 6.8 K/9
Mark Buehrle Age 32 3.21 ERA 127 ERA+ 0.8 HR/9 2.1 BB/9 4.8 K/9
Edwin Jackson Age 27 3.78 ERA 108 ERA+ 0.6 HR/9 2.9 BB/9 7.1 K/9
CJ Wilson Age 31 3.38 ERA 127 ERA+ 0.6 HR/9 3.1 BB/9 8.0 K/9

Wilson's numbers have taken a hit with a couple of rougher outings because earlier his ERA was around 3.08. I doubt you are going to be able to get Buehrle for much less than Wilson. Buehrle signed a 4 year deal that paid him 14 million this season. You would have to figure he would be looking for another 4-5 year deal with a couple mil or so bump. That is pretty much in line with Wilson, and I would rather go for Wilson between the two. Edwin Jackson's numbers this year are good, but last year he had a mid 4 ERA. And he has put up more seasons in the 4s than the high 3s. Carpenter's injury history has to be a red flag for any team, but I don't want any part of that.

 

[daddies3angels]

Well lets go through the list of the guys that you listed here:
Chris Carpenter Age 36 3.68 ERA 99 ERA+ 0.7 HR/9 2.1 BB/9 6.8 K/9
Mark Buehrle Age 32 3.21 ERA 127 ERA+ 0.8 HR/9 2.1 BB/9 4.8 K/9
Edwin Jackson Age 27 3.78 ERA 108 ERA+ 0.6 HR/9 2.9 BB/9 7.1 K/9
CJ Wilson Age 31 3.38 ERA 127 ERA+ 0.6 HR/9 3.1 BB/9 8.0 K/9

Wilson's numbers have taken a hit with a couple of rougher outings because earlier his ERA was around 3.08. I doubt you are going to be able to get Buehrle for much less than Wilson. Buehrle signed a 4 year deal that paid him 14 million this season. You would have to figure he would be looking for another 4-5 year deal with a couple mil or so bump. That is pretty much in line with Wilson, and I would rather go for Wilson between the two. Edwin Jackson's numbers this year are good, but last year he had a mid 4 ERA. And he has put up more seasons in the 4s than the high 3s. Carpenter's injury history has to be a red flag for any team, but I don't want any part of that.

Im not saying those guys good as CJ Wilson but to me they compare while Pena is not comparable to Fielder. Fielder better AVG, power, RBI, and OBP. I really think Cubs be better with Fielder and Jackson who both 28 y/o rather then Wilson and Pena who both be mid 30's. Jackson wont cost nearly as much as Wilson. There has been alot of pitchers with Jackson stuff that has figured it out when 28-30 range. Jackson has good of stuff as Garza. To me those 4 plus Cashner gives you nice SP rotation.

 

[dabynsky]

Im not saying those guys good as CJ Wilson but to me they compare while Pena is not comparable to Fielder. Fielder better AVG, power, RBI, and OBP. I really think Cubs be better with Fielder and Jackson who both 28 y/o rather then Wilson and Pena who both be mid 30's. Jackson wont cost nearly as much as Wilson. There has been alot of pitchers with Jackson stuff that has figured it out when 28-30 range. Jackson has good of stuff as Garza. To me those 4 plus Cashner gives you nice SP rotation.

I am willing to bet Jackson will make a lot more than Pena will though. And Edwin Jackson has been pretty inconsistent to say the least. He has only had a sub 4 ERA twice in his career, and has been bounced from team to team. I would rather stay away and invest in pitching. As I've mentioned a couple of times in other threads saying Wilson is 31 doesn't really give us the full picture. He has been a reliever for most of his career and he hasn't racked up the innings that many other starters have. For example despite being 4 years older than Jackson he has pitched over 350 fewer innings than Jackson at this point.

 

[Jntg4]

I would like to point out that while Wilson's numbers may not be great, he is pitching at the extremely hitter-friendly Rangers Ballpark in Arlington.

 

[dabynsky]

I would like to point out that while Wilson's numbers may not be great, he is pitching at the extremely hitter-friendly Rangers Ballpark in Arlington.

You do have to factor in though that the other teams in the AL West have pretty friendly pitcher parks. I do think it is very encouraging Wilson's HR rate when he pitches in a launching pad like Arlington half the time though.

 

[daddies3angels]

I am willing to bet Jackson will make a lot more than Pena will though. And Edwin Jackson has been pretty inconsistent to say the least. He has only had a sub 4 ERA twice in his career, and has been bounced from team to team. I would rather stay away and invest in pitching. As I've mentioned a couple of times in other threads saying Wilson is 31 doesn't really give us the full picture. He has been a reliever for most of his career and he hasn't racked up the innings that many other starters have. For example despite being 4 years older than Jackson he has pitched over 350 fewer innings than Jackson at this point.

You see Jackson getting 10 mil +? Pena will get 10-12 mil for sure. I see Jackson more of a 7-9 mil player. Jackson has been bounced around for sure. I understand that Wilson has less innings but the body of 31 y/o is different from a 28 y/o. I just think with Cubs still needing 4-6 moves that getting the younger guys makes more sense that when Cubs can make the other 2-4 moves in the next 2 seasons they still be in there peaked years. Im not questioning that Wilson is better then Jackson but i feel Jackson can give Cubs around the same production for alot less money while Fielder will give Cubs TONS more production then Pena at 1B.

 

[dabynsky]

You see Jackson getting 10 mil +? Pena will get 10-12 mil for sure. I see Jackson more of a 7-9 mil player. Jackson has been bounced around for sure. I understand that Wilson has less innings but the body of 31 y/o is different from a 28 y/o. I just think with Cubs still needing 4-6 moves that getting the younger guys makes more sense that when Cubs can make the other 2-4 moves in the next 2 seasons they still be in there peaked years. Im not questioning that Wilson is better then Jackson but i feel Jackson can give Cubs around the same production for alot less money while Fielder will give Cubs TONS more production then Pena at 1B.

Jackson is making 8.5 million this season, and is putting up solid numbers. His agent is also Scott Boras. I think 10 million is the minimum Jackson gets on the open market.

 

[daddies3angels]

Jackson is making 8.5 million this season, and is putting up solid numbers. His agent is also Scott Boras. I think 10 million is the minimum Jackson gets on the open market.

Well then he might be out of Cubs range then lol. I understand Wilson idea, i really do, im just tired of seeing Cubs 3 hole this consist of Castro, DeShit, and Baker. I just think Fielder production is by far more then Pena then what Cubs can find for another SP compared to Wilson. Now if there was an absolute ACE avaible i say hell ya but theres not. So go after the superstar this year and hopefully after Z and Demp are gone there will be an ACE avaible for 2013 FA

Starting pitchers
Scott Baker (31) - $9.25MM club option
Joe Blanton (32)
Matt Cain (28)
Fausto Carmona (29) - $9MM club option
Kevin Correia (32)
John Danks (28)
Jorge De La Rosa (32) - $11MM player option with a $1MM buyout
R.A. Dickey (38) - $5MM club option with a $300K buyout
Scott Feldman (29) - $9.25MM club option with a $600K buyout
Gavin Floyd (30) - $9.5MM club option
Zack Greinke (28)
Jeremy Guthrie (34)
Cole Hamels (29)
Dan Haren (32) - $15.5MM club option with a $3.5MM buyout
Tim Hudson (37) - $9MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Colby Lewis (33)
Francisco Liriano (29)
Kyle Lohse (34)
Derek Lowe (40)
Shaun Marcum (31)
Daisuke Matsuzaka (32)
Brandon McCarthy (29)
Brett Myers (32) - $10MM club option with a $3MM buyout
Carl Pavano (37)
Jake Peavy (31) - $22MM club option with a $4MM buyout
Anibal Sanchez (29)
Jonathan Sanchez (30)
Ervin Santana (30) - $13MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Joe Saunders (32)
James Shields (31) - $9MM club option with a $1.5MM buyout
Jered Weaver (30)
Jake Westbrook (35) - $8.5MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout if club declines
Randy Wolf (36) - $10MM club option with a $1.5MM buyout
Carlos Zambrano (32) - $19.25MM player option depending on Zambrano's Cy Young voting placement

Look at some of those guys who could be avaible. I realize some will resign with team but there are some really good SP that are better then Wilson and now look at 2013 projected 1B class:

Aubrey Huff (36) - $10MM club option with a $2MM buyout
Adam LaRoche (33) - $10MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
Carlos Lee (37)
James Loney (29)
Mike Napoli (31)
Ty Wigginton (35) - $4MM club option with a $500K buyout


SO YES FIELDER IS A MUST THIS OFFSEASON

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

i agree with you about pujols..i feel now that the cubs need to really look for fielder who might demand for less money actually and will a better long term investment imo

my mind just had a thought to trade pena and some other prospects/money for cj wilson..then i realized that's completely Special person

anywho...we need to dump pena's salary imo....that's another reason i really hate hendry not wanting to trade him? how are you going to get pujols or fielder if you still have pena?


i would take either wilson or fielder..if i had a choice it'd be fielder because our pitching is relatively solid starting rotation wise(atleast in the too 3)..but that doesnt mean i wouldnt love to have wilson

it will be interesting to see what the cubs FO is thinking regarding free agency

i swear to god we better not end up empy handed or with some washed up guy like brandon inge

 

[daddies3angels]

Well then he might be out of Cubs range then lol. I understand Wilson idea, i really do, im just tired of seeing Cubs 3 hole this consist of Castro, DeShit, and Baker. I just think Fielder production is by far more then Pena then what Cubs can find for another SP compared to Wilson. Now if there was an absolute ACE avaible i say hell ya but theres not. So go after the superstar this year and hopefully after Z and Demp are gone there will be an ACE avaible for 2013 FA

Starting pitchers
Scott Baker (31) - $9.25MM club option
Joe Blanton (32)
Matt Cain (28)
Fausto Carmona (29) - $9MM club option
Kevin Correia (32)
John Danks (28)
Jorge De La Rosa (32) - $11MM player option with a $1MM buyout
R.A. Dickey (38) - $5MM club option with a $300K buyout
Scott Feldman (29) - $9.25MM club option with a $600K buyout
Gavin Floyd (30) - $9.5MM club option
Zack Greinke (28)
Jeremy Guthrie (34)
Cole Hamels (29)
Dan Haren (32) - $15.5MM club option with a $3.5MM buyout
Tim Hudson (37) - $9MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Colby Lewis (33)
Francisco Liriano (29)
Kyle Lohse (34)
Derek Lowe (40)
Shaun Marcum (31)
Daisuke Matsuzaka (32)
Brandon McCarthy (29)
Brett Myers (32) - $10MM club option with a $3MM buyout
Carl Pavano (37)
Jake Peavy (31) - $22MM club option with a $4MM buyout
Anibal Sanchez (29)
Jonathan Sanchez (30)
Ervin Santana (30) - $13MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Joe Saunders (32)
James Shields (31) - $9MM club option with a $1.5MM buyout
Jered Weaver (30)
Jake Westbrook (35) - $8.5MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout if club declines
Randy Wolf (36) - $10MM club option with a $1.5MM buyout
Carlos Zambrano (32) - $19.25MM player option depending on Zambrano's Cy Young voting placement

Look at some of those guys who could be avaible. I realize some will resign with team but there are some really good SP that are better then Wilson and now look at 2013 projected 1B class:

Aubrey Huff (36) - $10MM club option with a $2MM buyout
Adam LaRoche (33) - $10MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
Carlos Lee (37)
James Loney (29)
Mike Napoli (31)
Ty Wigginton (35) - $4MM club option with a $500K buyout


SO YES FIELDER IS A MUST THIS OFFSEASON

To me this shows why cubs NEED PRINCE over Wilson..i see 9 guys on that SP list of 2013 FA list that would be better then Wilson

 

[dabynsky]

i agree with you about pujols..i feel now that the cubs need to really look for fielder who might demand for less money actually and will a better long term investment imo

my mind just had a thought to trade pena and some other prospects/money for cj wilson..then i realized that's completely Special person

anywho...we need to dump pena's salary imo....that's another reason i really hate hendry not wanting to trade him? how are you going to get pujols or fielder if you still have pena?


i would take either wilson or fielder..if i had a choice it'd be fielder because our pitching is relatively solid starting rotation wise(atleast in the too 3)..but that doesnt mean i wouldnt love to have wilson

it will be interesting to see what the cubs FO is thinking regarding free agency

i swear to god we better not end up empy handed or with some washed up guy like brandon inge

Thankfully you don't have to worry about ending up with Brandon Inge this offseason since he is signed through next season.

 

[Jntg4]

TR: Hey Jim, any progress on that Pena trade you're supposed to be making.
JH: No Tom, I've decided to keep Pena. I really think he'll help the team next year.
TR: Alright, but you were really supposed to be doing that. What other trades have you worked on?
JH: None, this team is just a couple moves away from competing, so I'm not just gonna blow it up.
TR: Then what the hell have you been doing all day fat ass? Eating donuts?
JH: Actually I was planning our 2014 rotation of Andrew Cashner, Matt Garza, Matt Cain, Chris Archer, and Aaron Miles.
TR: Come on Jim, even I know that Aaron Miles is a terrible pitcher, and rarely ever takes the mound considering he's primarily a position player! And you traded Chris Archer you dumbass! You know what, you're fired.
JH: Tom, I wouldn't do that if I were you. Remember those pictures I have of you?
TR: No, no Jim, I'd never fire you. You've done a good job. Here, have an extension. Oh, and don't forget to give yourself a No-Trade Clause!

Sad part is that I'm sure this is 99% accurate.