Stan Bowman - Hot or Not?

[klemmer]

Are you really trying to compare DT to SB?

He's not trying, he is.



And failing miserably at it.

 

[Ton]

I think Dale has more knowledge on the hockey side of things, but I also have faith that Stan is a good GM. No one wanted to give Dale the benefit of the doubt his first 3 seasons, many didn't appreciate him either, and was criticized for many moves he made and didn't make.



I remember when Joe Thornton was traded for Marco Sturm, Wayne Primeau, and Brad Stuart. Many wondered why Dale couldn't put a package together that could rival that, especially when we were desperate for a #1 center. Instead, he decided to ice a team with Arnason, Bell, Calder, Vrbata, and Lapointe to anchor the offense (Or it's possible that the Bruins weren't biting on the Hawks offers, something every GM experiences). People were pissed, questioned Dale, and that happened for several years before he was given the chance to prove people wrong. He changed a lot of opinions over the course of his tenure as GM in Chicago. But Dale won some of his trades, built through the draft, and won a Cup--and failed miserably with his off-season signings.. Why doesn't Stan deserve the same respect? He is taking the same path and building this team in his own light.



Dale didn't win with every trade, signing, or draft pick. I can come up with a giant list of his failures, and believe me, there is plenty of failed experiments.



Adrian Aucoin, Jassen Cullimore, Curtis Brown, Matthew Barnaby, Martin Lapointe (contract), Radim Vrbata, Tony Salmelainen, Todd Simpson, Cam Barker, Danny Richmond, Jeff Hamilton, Andy Hilbert, Denis Arkhipov, Peter Bondra, Lasse Kukkonen, Michael Holmqvist, Michal Handzus, Jason Williams, Martin St. Pierre, Nikita Alexeev, Reed Low, David Koci, Yanic Perreault, Jack Skille, Magnus Johansson, Sergei Samsonov, that alone is a big list of disappointments over 4 years.



People forget the crap that Dale iced because he built a Cup winning team. Not a single GM is capable of winning every trade, signing, or draft choice. The bottom line, everyone has stinky shit tagged along with their success.

 

[dlrob315]

I think Dale has more knowledge on the hockey side of things, but I also have faith that Stan is a good GM. No one wanted to give Dale the benefit of the doubt his first 3 seasons, many didn't appreciate him either, and was criticized for many moves he made and didn't make.



I remember when Joe Thornton was traded for Marco Sturm, Wayne Primeau, and Brad Stuart. Many wondered why Dale couldn't put a package together that could rival that, especially when we were desperate for a #1 center. Instead, he decided to ice a team with Arnason, Bell, Calder, Vrbata, and Lapointe to anchor the offense (Or it's possible that the Bruins weren't biting on the Hawks offers, something every GM experiences). People were pissed, questioned Dale, and that happened for several years before he was given the chance to prove people wrong. He changed a lot of opinions over the course of his tenure as GM in Chicago. But Dale won some of his trades, built through the draft, and won a Cup--and failed miserably with his off-season signings.. Why doesn't Stan deserve the same respect? He is taking the same path and building this team in his own light.



Dale didn't win with every trade, signing, or draft pick. I can come up with a giant list of his failures, and believe me, there is plenty of failed experiments.



Adrian Aucoin, Jassen Cullimore, Curtis Brown, Matthew Barnaby, Martin Lapointe (contract), Radim Vrbata, Tony Salmelainen, Todd Simpson, Cam Barker, Danny Richmond, Jeff Hamilton, Andy Hilbert, Denis Arkhipov, Peter Bondra, Lasse Kukkonen, Michael Holmqvist, Michal Handzus, Jason Williams, Martin St. Pierre, Nikita Alexeev, Reed Low, David Koci, Yanic Perreault, Jack Skille, Magnus Johansson, Sergei Samsonov, that alone is a big list of disappointments over 4 years.



People forget the crap that Dale iced because he built a Cup winning team. Not a single GM is capable of winning every trade, signing, or draft choice. The bottom line, everyone has stinky shit tagged along with their success.

Yes, Dale did not start out great but Dale did not walk in a situation where he had a Stanley Cup, Kane, Toews, Sharp, Hossa, Keith, Bolland & Seabrook as his core to work with. When you are set-up with a core like that, Stan's misses are going to be highly magnified. Once everyone get a taste of the ultimate, patience are thinner. Stan got his mulligan last year...he does not getting one this year.



You are not comparing apples to apples. Stan was set up better.

 

[supraman]

Yes, Dale did not start out great but Dale did not walk in a situation where he had a Stanley Cup, Kane, Toews, Sharp, Hossa, Keith, Bolland & Seabrook as his core to work with. When you are set-up with a core like that, Stan's misses are going to be highly magnified. Once everyone get a taste of the ultimate, patience are thinner. Stan got his mulligan last year...he does not getting one this year.



You are not comparing apples to apples. Stan was set up better.

Then factor in Chicago was so bad for so long you had to overpay free agents, then you can see why DT threw some high numbers at average talent.



Also is it okay for me to just not like Scooter? I don't want to wait a few years to see if a legit reason pops up, can I just not like him?

 

[Ton]

Set up better in terms of having a core in place, but as far as providing the depth within the organization to take over the players we lost due to the cap--the cookie jar was empty.



After the initial wave of talent set-up by Dale, leftovers Stan had were Skille, Brophey, Makarov, Smith, Dowell, and Bickell, all of which were among the better prospects left in the system to help fill the gaps... obviously nothing comparable to what was there previously in Versteeg, Buff, Bolland, Brouwer, Hammer, etc.. etc..



Stan might have the core, and yes he is lucky to have that, but he has no depth within the organization. He's building it back. To me it's not something that is as easy to do as people like to believe, it takes a few years no matter who the core players are.



Everyone wants this quick fix but where are you going to get that from? Once these prospects come through we should hope that they all produce above their salary the same way the last wave did. No doubt, the likes of Pirri, Kruger, Morin, Saad, Beach, Olsen, Leddy, McNeill, J. Hayes, K. Hayes, and many others are question marks for the moment, but so was the last wave, we just have to see if they can prove they are worth the potential on their eventual expensive price tags. Every top notch organization takes these gambles--I'm confident that the Blackhawks have a good assessment of young talent and these guys will be productive soon. That's how you win a Cup, there is no trade or FA signing that would have changed things with the core already having a commitment.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Thank God they get past Nashville in the first round in 2010. Had they not have had that brilliant stroke of luck where Kane tied the game with under a minute left, they kill off Hossa's penalty, Sopel does a lap around the rink and distributes the puck ultimately to Hossa who was wide open on the left side of the net... I wonder what people would think of Dale as purely a hockey GM and not as a person.

 

[supraman]

Thank God they get past Nashville in the first round in 2010. Had they not have had that brilliant stroke of luck where Kane tied the game with under a minute left, they kill off Hossa's penalty, Sopel does a lap around the rink and distributes the puck ultimately to Hossa who was wide open on the left side of the net... I wonder what people would think of Dale as purely a hockey GM and not as a person.

The same, we would have blamed Scooter, duh!



All Hail Dale bitches!!

 

[dlrob315]

Set up better in terms of having a core in place, but as far as providing the depth within the organization to take over the players we lost due to the cap--the cookie jar was empty.



After the initial wave of talent set-up by Dale, leftovers Stan had were Skille, Brophey, Makarov, Smith, Dowell, and Bickell, all of which were among the better prospects left in the system to help fill the gaps... obviously nothing comparable to what was there previously in Versteeg, Buff, Bolland, Hammer, etc.. etc..



Stan might have the core, and yes he is lucky to have that, but he has no depth within the organization. He's building it back. To me it's not something that is as easy to do as people like to believe, it takes a few years no matter who the core players are.



Everyone wants this quick fix but where are you going to get that from? Once these prospects come through we should hope that they all produce above their salary the same way the last wave did. No doubt, the likes of Pirri, Morin, Saad, Beach, Olsen, Leddy, McNeill, J. Hayes, K. Hayes, and many others are question marks for the moment, but so was the last wave, we just have to see if they can prove they are worth the potential on their tags. That's how you win a Cup, there is no trade or FA signing that would have changed things with the core already having a commitment.

I understand the building depth part...I am not talking about prospects and prospects are suspects and plus we will not be able to grade Stan on his futures until 3 or 4 yrs...I get that.



What I'm talking about is his FA pick ups, that is the only thing I can judge him on right now. You have seen the list of those FA from the last 2 summers, he has missed on 11 out 13...that is all I am saying. Until his prospects / suspects become NHL'ers, Stan will have to rely on summer FA pick ups..and thus far....big fat D-

 

[Ton]

I understand the building depth part...I am not talking about prospects and prospects are suspects and plus we will not be able to grade Stan on his futures until 3 or 4 yrs...I get that.



What I'm talking about is his FA pick ups, that is the only thing I can judge him on right now. You have seen the list of those FA from the last 2 summers, he has missed on 11 out 13...that is all I am saying. Until his prospects / suspects become NHL'ers, Stan will have to rely on summer FA pick ups..and thus far....big fat D-

Dale didn't have very much success in the FA market either other than a handful of players. I'd say their success rate is pretty close.



No reasonably talented player will sign for one-year when someone else is willing to give them a longer term, what you see is what you get with Stan's FA signings.

 

[R K]

Present as in the current situation. We as outsiders don't know the current trading scene. We don't know who is available yet or isn't. All we can do is focus on the present and our horrendous skid. Last game showed signs of improvement. They need to build on that.



If you want to get technical:



Tallon started working as the director of player personnel in 98 to 2002. He became assistant GM and then GM in 05. 7 years.



Bowman started in 2001 and was GM in 2009. 8 years.



Bowman paid his dues as well as Tallon did.

You can't possibly be going down this road can you? Come on? What prior NHL or even professional hockey experience did Stan have BEFORE his token position was given? Stan had ZERO experience when Tallon hired him because a friend asked him if he coud get him a job. Any idea on the friend? Yea.

 

[klemmer]

So, i guess DT lucked into a good situation down in Florida?

 

[R K]

Yes, Dale did not start out great but Dale did not walk in a situation where he had a Stanley Cup, Kane, Toews, Sharp, Hossa, Keith, Bolland & Seabrook as his core to work with. When you are set-up with a core like that, Stan's misses are going to be highly magnified. Once everyone get a taste of the ultimate, patience are thinner. Stan got his mulligan last year...he does not getting one this year.



You are not comparing apples to apples. Stan was set up better.

Dale had a guy named Pulford pulling strings in his first two years. Stan did not. Again lets not mention that little tid bit.

 

[klemmer]

Dale had a guy named Pulford pulling strings in his first two years. Stan did not. Again lets not mention that little tid bit.

Stan has McPimp pulling his strings.

 

[R K]

Thank God they get past Nashville in the first round in 2010. Had they not have had that brilliant stroke of luck where Kane tied the game with under a minute left, they kill off Hossa's penalty, Sopel does a lap around the rink and distributes the puck ultimately to Hossa who was wide open on the left side of the net... I wonder what people would think of Dale as purely a hockey GM and not as a person.

Maybe, who knows. That was game #5, not game #7. Had they lost that the series is 3-2 going back to Nashville, not over. Of which the Hawks man handled them in game #6 to win the Series.

 

[Ton]

Dale had a guy named Pulford pulling strings in his first two years. Stan did not. Again lets not mention that little tid bit.

Not every string... Dale was completely in charge of the draft.

 

[R K]

Stan has McPimp pulling his strings.

Not a chance. Stan has Scotty pulling his strings. Alot different from where I sit.

 

[klemmer]

Not a chance. Stan has Scotty pulling his strings. Alot different from where I sit.

You do have a different view than me. Point taken.

 

[Ton]

If anything the argument can be made that McD pulled a bit of Tallon's strings as well. But since then, McD is less involved on the hockey side of things.

 

[R K]

Again Stan will be judged in 3-4 years down the road. There was no miracle happening with the SC issues this team had, but that was partially his doing. They pissed off so many people in and around the NHL in the way they treated Tallon, it's no wonder he's having a hard time tradining wise.



If not for Dudley and Tallon he may not have gotten out of the SC mess. This team has how much Cap Space right now and basically all year? What have they added? How much are the paying Huet? Are they really eating Huet's contract? Some serious questions you have to ask, about Money, how much they are spending and how much they want to win. Mcdonough, Rocky can't afford to lose, but they are paying 9 million to two players who aren't playing in the NHL.



Lot's of questions IMO.

 

[R K]

If anything the argument can be made that McD pulled a bit of Tallon's strings as well. But since then, McD is less involved on the hockey side of things.

Not really, Tallon told him to fuck off and was fired. Pulling strings means you are a "yes mam" type person and listen. Tallon didn't.