TGDT: 10/30 Hawks @ Wild 7:00PM WGN

[R K]

Bolland isn't a top 6 forward. From the bottom 6 lines (Bickell, Dowell, Stalberg, Skille, Bolland, Pisani) there have been a total of 8 goals. 6 of them came from Dowell and Stalberg... Kopecky and Brouwer have yet to score more than a single goal.



Our only depth has come from the 4th line. Not sure what you call that. Its not as if guys like Brouwer and Bolland can't score. Pisani has had many 15+ goal years... Kopecky, I won't really get on his case much but he should be popping more in the net as well.



The lack of depth is pretty obvious, I'm pretty sure no one had 10 goals at this point in the year last year... 3 of them being game winners.

Well using your two examples Kopecky was a line with a guy that has 7 goals, IE Kopecky has how many assists??? and Brouwer was on the 3rd line with a Center whos been MIA even while on the ice.



I disagree the lack of depth is obvious anywhere other than the third line due to the Center not being able to play consistently.



I'm pretty sure last year our 4th line was just as productive as it is right now.

 

[PatrickShart]

Bolland's top 6 minutes a game....doesnt make him a top 6 forward? Interesting.



It's 13 games in...how many goals should everyone have....so that I know where they should be?. Brouwer, Kopecky, Boland, and Pisani...should all have more...how many? Then they'll have "depth"...and be the Oiler's of the 80's.

 

[Ton]

Bolland's top 6 minutes a game....doesnt make him a top 6 forward? Interesting.



It's 13 games in...how many goals should everyone have....so that I know where they should be?. Brouwer, Kopecky, Boland, and Pisani...should all have more...how many? Then they'll have "depth"...and be the Oiler's of the 80's.

Right, because he plays on the bottom 6 lines. Hes a center, of course hes going to have more ice-time than a winger the way Q likes to pair centers together at times. Bolland and Brouwer practically have the same amount of time at even strength, and if you really want to get technical, Ben Smith is a "top 6 forward" right now with his even strength time, not Bolland.



Anyway, with all that ice-time, a top 6 forward, according to you... don't you expect to see some production? You really think we are missing Bolland and his 3 points right now?



I don't know how many goals everyone should have, but they also aren't reaching expectations -- most of them not even on pace for 10 goals this year -- hell some of them barely on pace for 5 goals. It doesn't take much to figure that out.

 

[R K]

Right, because he plays on the bottom 6 lines. Hes a center, of course hes going to have more ice-time than a winger the way Q likes to pair centers together at times. Bolland and Brouwer practically have the same amount of time at even strength, and if you really want to get technical, Ben Smith is a "top 6 forward" right now with his even strength time, not Bolland.



Anyway, with all that ice-time, a top 6 forward, according to you... don't you expect to see some production? You really think we are missing Bolland and his 3 points right now?



I don't know how many goals everyone should have, but they also aren't reaching expectations -- most of them not even on pace for 10 goals this year. It doesn't take much to figure that out.

Go back and compare goals scored through 11 games last year and let me know how many players were on pace for 20 goals, and how many players weren't. 10 games is no where near enough time for this discussion. You know this.



And as far as Bolland is concerned he's not healthy and apparently has not been. Let me know his numbers last year too. Because it appears it's almost an identical start to this year for him.

 

[Ton]

Go back and compare goals scored through 11 games last year and let me know how many players were on pace for 20 goals, and how many players weren't. 10 games is no where near enough time for this discussion. You know this.

When did I say 20 goals? This team is top heavy right now, with Hossa out the bottom lines need to step up. Minnesota is a start, but I'd like to see more.

 

[R K]

When did I say 20 goals? This team is top heavy right now, with Hossa out the bottom lines need to step up. Minnesota is a start, but I'd like to see more.

I said 20, you said 10 and 5....



"don't know how many goals everyone should have, but they also aren't reaching expectations -- most of them not even on pace for 10 goals this year -- hell some of them barely on pace for 5 goals. It doesn't take much to figure that out."





Didn't the 4th line win a game two games ago?



I wouldn't call last years 4th line exactly productive. I'd take our 4th line this year (assuming Q would leave them alone) then last years hands down.

 

[PatrickShart]

Right, because he plays on the bottom 6 lines. Hes a center, of course hes going to have more ice-time than a winger the way Q likes to pair centers together at times. Bolland and Brouwer practically have the same amount of time at even strength, and if you really want to get technical, Ben Smith is a "top 6 forward" right now with his even strength time, not Bolland.



Anyway, with all that ice-time, a top 6 forward, according to you... don't you expect to see some production? You really think we are missing Bolland and his 3 points right now?



I don't know how many goals everyone should have, but they also aren't reaching expectations -- most of them not even on pace for 10 goals this year -- hell some of them barely on pace for 5 goals. It doesn't take much to figure that out.

I didnt realize PP/PK icetime doesnt matter or count....but what "line" someone allegedly plays on ultimately means someone is a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th line player. I was always under the impression with how much someone plays in a game and in what situation defines his role/value to a team, not a numbered line.



It doesnt take much to realize that chances are Sharp's not going to end up with 63 goals either...so just as his production may go down, someone else's will pick up. Its an 82 game season, not a 13gm season.

 

[PatrickShart]

Toews and Kane are only on pace for 19 goals...worried about them?

 

[R K]

Toews and Kane are only on pace for 19 goals...worried about them?

Scoring is not why this team is 7-5-1.



It's playing poorly on the back end. Primarily due to Campbell being out IMO.

 

[Ton]

I didnt realize PP/PK icetime doesnt matter or count....but what "line" someone allegedly plays on ultimately means someone is a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th line player. I was always under the impression with how much someone plays in a game and in what situation defines his role/value to a team, not a numbered line.



It doesnt take much to realize that chances are Sharp's not going to end up with 63 goals either...so just as his production may go down, someone else's will pick up. Its an 82 game season, not a 13gm season.

I hope so.



Bolland is a center, hes going to be placed in more situations than someone like Brouwer. I guess John Madden is a top 6 forward for Minnesota, Skinner is a top 6 forward for Carolina, Ryan O'Reilly is a top 6 forward for Colorado, Jerred Smithson is a top 6 forward for Nashville, Handzus is a top 6 forward for Los Angeles, Johan Hecht is a top 6 guy for Buffalo... I can probably keep going... these guys are all third line centers... they play on the bottom lines for their teams (the last 6 forwards). Who cares anyway, this argument is stupid.

 

[R K]

I hope so.



Bolland is a center, hes going to be placed in more situations than someone like Brouwer. I guess John Madden is a top 6 forward for Minnesota, Skinner is a top 6 forward for Carolina, Ryan O'Reilly is a top 6 forward for Colorado, Jerred Smithson is a top 6 forward for Nashville, Handzus is a top 6 forward for Los Angeles, Johan Hecht is a top 6 guy for Buffalo... I can probably keep going... these guys are all third line centers... they play on the bottom lines for their teams (the last 6 forwards). Who cares anyway, this argument is stupid.

Tomorrow night is in an extremely tuff building for us. Let's see how they fair. Easily should have won that game last year there.

 

[Ton]

I said 20, you said 10 and 5....



"don't know how many goals everyone should have, but they also aren't reaching expectations -- most of them not even on pace for 10 goals this year -- hell some of them barely on pace for 5 goals. It doesn't take much to figure that out."





Didn't the 4th line win a game two games ago?



I wouldn't call last years 4th line exactly productive. I'd take our 4th line this year (assuming Q would leave them alone) then last years hands down.

I like our 4th line this year compared to last years, it's faster and actually does a great job on the forecheck.

Scoring is not why this team is 7-5-1.



It's playing poorly on the back end. Primarily due to Campbell being out IMO.

I'd say its a mixture. Primarily team defense has screwed this team, but depth scoring also plays a role. We are in the middle of the pack in this league in goals per game, that's not exactly surprising to me, nor is it satisfying.



I'm not exactly putting the team down, but they deserve what they have right now... I just hope we see some improvement and we can truly be an elite team in the West this year. At this point, I'm not sure we'll win the division but I'm not writing it off yet either. Like you said, its early but also at the same time, we need to be better.

 

[R K]

I like our 4th line this year compared to last years, it's faster and actually does a great job on the forecheck.







I'd say its a mixture. Primarily team defense has screwed this team, but depth scoring also plays a role. We are in the middle of the pack in this league in goals per game, that's not exactly surprising to me, nor is it satisfying.

We are almost exactly where we are in scoring this year, to last after this many games. No matter where it's coming from.



And I'd be interested to see just how much more evenly spread out it was last year verses this year. But again it's almost pointless until you get past 20 games or more.



And while I agree it's a mixture I would say it's more due to our 1, 2 and 4 Dmen.



Starting the Season Seabrook had a very rough first couple of games. Keith, other than last night has had a horrid past 5 games. Personally causing 4-5 goals against. Hjarlmarsson has not been right all year yet.



That's not depth. Probably has a lot to due with no Campbell, but they have not played well as a group at all.

 

[PatrickShart]

I hope so.



Bolland is a center, hes going to be placed in more situations than someone like Brouwer. I guess John Madden is a top 6 forward for Minnesota, Skinner is a top 6 forward for Carolina, Ryan O'Reilly is a top 6 forward for Colorado, Jerred Smithson is a top 6 forward for Nashville, Handzus is a top 6 forward for Los Angeles, Johan Hecht is a top 6 guy for Buffalo... I can probably keep going... these guys are all third line centers... they play on the bottom lines for their teams (the last 6 forwards). Who cares anyway, this argument is stupid.

Hanzus...yes...top 5 minutes on the team

Madden ....by about 20 seconds is top 6....so is right on the top 6/7 forward for them

Skinner by about 7 seconds per game, so again...right on that border

Smithson....8th on their forward in TOI so no

Hecht...top 6 minutes, so yes

O'Reilly....riight on the 6/7 forward border by 14 seconds per gm



Bolland is 6th on the team - by about 2min per gm. Plays PP and the PK - all 3 situations.

Last year....on the deepest team in the entire world - he was 5th in TOI - 2min more per game than # 7 (3rd in TOI per game in the playoffs)

08-09....he was 7th on TOI per game in the regular season - but was first (tops) in the playoffs in TOI per game.



If that's not relying/or stating the case that he's a top 5 forward on this team...I don't know what to tell you.



I guess if someone starts the game - he's a "starter" or the top/1st line player as well....since thats the first line of the game.

 

[Ton]

We are almost exactly where we are in scoring this year, to last after this many games. No matter where it's coming from.



And I'd be interested to see just how much more evenly spread out it was last year verses this year. But again it's almost pointless until you get past 20 games or more.



And while I agree it's a mixture I would say it's more due to our 1, 2 and 4 Dmen.



Starting the Season Seabrook had a very rough first couple of games. Keith, other than last night has had a horrid past 5 games. Personally causing 4-5 goals against. Hjarlmarsson has not been right all year yet.



That's not depth. Probably has a lot to due with no Campbell, but they have not played well as a group at all.

After 13 games last year:



88 - 4

33 - 5

10 - 6

51 - 1

32 - 3

25 - 3

16 - 2

02 - 3

11 - 1

36 - 2

07 - 1

20 - 1

82 - 1

22 - 3

19 - 1

04 - 1



16 people scored a goal, 9 of them had 2 or more, 7 of them with 3 or more...



This year, 13 people with a goal, 8 of them with 2 or more, 6 of them with 3 or more... so its not that far off. Obviously Brouwer and Bolland were off to better starts last year. Versteeg, Buff, and Ladd were key role players that were producing. Just seems like we are lacking that this year -- maybe the 4th line should be bumped to the third, honestly.

 

[PatrickShart]

Who gives a shit what "name or number" a line has?



Since TOI doesnt determine if a player is a top 6 forward or not, why not just name Toews, Sharp and Kane 4th liners...so then the Hawks could have the most productive 4th line - and we can ***** about the lack of production from the first line?

 

[Ton]

Hanzus...yes...top 5 minutes on the team

Madden ....by about 20 seconds is top 6....so is right on the top 6/7 forward for them

Skinner by about 7 seconds per game, so again...right on that border

Smithson....8th on their forward in TOI so no

Hecht...top 6 minutes, so yes

O'Reilly....riight on the 6/7 forward border by 14 seconds per gm



Bolland is 6th on the team - by about 2min per gm. Plays PP and the PK - all 3 situations.

Last year....on the deepest team in the entire world - he was 5th in TOI - 2min more per game than # 7 (3rd in TOI per game in the playoffs)

08-09....he was 7th on TOI per game in the regular season - but was first (tops) in the playoffs in TOI per game.



If that's not relying/or stating the case that he's a top 5 forward on this team...I don't know what to tell you.



I guess if someone starts the game - he's a "starter" or the top/1st line player as well....since thats the first line of the game.

K.

 

[R K]

It's not that far off and this year they have to find chemistry unlike last.



Bolland tapered off pretty fast last year and was gone for most of the season.



I would say the Buff, Ladd and Versteeg are missing most in physicality and defensive play. This team misses those aspects much more than the production.



The physicality we might miss all season while the defensive play with our current replacements will improve as the chemistry improves.



Again having a Center as important as Bolland not producing makes the entire line have issues. And not so much producing in production, but basic play on the ice. I'd give Bolland as much time as he needs and roll with Poltuny. As the 3rd line goes, so will the other two.



IE Havlat-Bolland-Ladd.....

 

[Ton]

It's not that far off and this year they have to find chemistry unlike last.



Bolland tapered off pretty fast last year and was gone for most of the season.



I would say the Buff, Ladd and Versteeg are missing most in physicality and defensive play. This team misses those aspects much more than the production.



The physicality we might miss all season while the defensive play with our current replacements will improve as the chemistry improves.



Again having a Center as important as Bolland not producing makes the entire line have issues. And not so much producing in production, but basic play on the ice. I'd give Bolland as much time as he needs and roll with Poltuny. As the 3rd line goes, so will the other two.



IE Havlat-Bolland-Ladd.....

Usually that happens when you are injured half the season, lol.



I agree with the rest, all the way with sitting Bolland until he is fine to play.

 

[R K]

Usually that happens when you are injured half the season, lol.

Exactly. And knowing he's been playing questionable since about oh, game one, that's yet another issue the team has incurred, but the same issue they incurred around this exact time last year.



If Campbell returns healthy some time this week, by the look of their record, I'd say they over came the injury. Struggled at times no doubt, but still did not flop points wise.



I am confident they'll over come them all.