The Cubs are gonna shock the World!

[brett05]

I was firmly on your side in this argument when we all discussed it in ST and early in the season. I'm still in your camp that statistically managers don't win many ball games. I also said at that time that what the great managers do better than others is what they do in the non baseball sense of the word manager. In this sense I think Maddon has allowed his team to win games they normally wouldn't. These guys believe in themselves and believe they can win every day. Maddon understands that all players needed to be handled in different ways and that it especially holds true with young players. He also understands his team. When they were pressing early in the summer he brought in a magician to much derision and yet it helped get their minds right. When they were pressing a week ago and had started showing up 6 and 7 hours before game time he locked them out of the clubhouse and cancelled BP. None of these things come out of a book and I would expect a different set of tools to be used next year with the younger players gaining experience and the team's goals having escalated even further than this year.

You're never going to be able to evaluate a good manager's contributions to wins and losses with a metric and in game decisions tend to balance out which is why most analytical baseball sources put a manager's impact at +/- 3. I'd agree with this as it pertains to in game moves. How players are handled in terms of psychology and team building though cannot be ignored. If you're looking at the difference between Maddon and Renteria I'd argue that there's a huge difference. If you say that Maddon has maximized his quantifiable influence at say 3 games (based on the fact they'll likely finish 20 games better than last year's record) I would say that he's worth another 7-9 games in how he runs his ballclub. The other 8-10 games of improvement have come from the obvious upgrades in talent.

I've never discounted the value of the intangibles of the game. It absolutely helps to minimize the mistakes and allows players to get the most out of using their talents.

I've always read/heard the =/- 5. Maddon has made mistakes this year. The Cub fans on this board have said so. Others, myself included have pointed out the bad calls with infield in and batting the pitcher 8th. He's also made some tremendous moves like pulling Castro. I applaud him for that too. Nothing he's done has moved him from the top 5-8 managers in the game for me.

That said, I've not read/heard one player say Rick wasn't on this path too. I'm not sure Rick wouldn't have had this success as well this season. Basically what I have seen, talent placed aside, that Maddon and Renteria for their respective years have done about the same job. That's all.

 

[brett05]

I've explained previously what Maddon brought to the table. Lately he has been expecting players to stay away from the stadium and show up later. Just like in Tampa, he is expecting his team to stay fresh down the stretch and thinks a lot of BP is detrimental. Look at how the offense is coming along down the stretch. Yeah. Maddon isn't worth wins. His WAR this season is well above 5, IMHO.

You can opinion all you want. We have nothing tangible. That's the point.

 

[brett05]

He seems to know how to handle players and situations.

He doesn't harp on the negatives, but let's them know about it and keeps the attitude positive.

He is free and loose, and players respect that and no his demands.

There is no doubt why teams play well under him especially with a young Tampa team, and now a young Cubs team. It isn't just a coincidence.

He is going to help to lure free agents to the Cubs also IMO. That isn't going to hurt.

I saw on a piece that he was talking to Jed and Theo during Spring Training and he said he wanted the players to hit a softball. Theo and Jed looked at him in a confusion and said "do you think it will work"?

Maddon said "I do" and laughed.

Just shows his "off-the-wall" approach to the game.

That Young Tampa Team is worse than when Maddon had them and they are playing pretty good.

 

[SilenceS]

Love to see anything that backs that. ANYTHING

20 games over .500 for starters. Did you even watch Ricky coach? I liked him but his in game managing was sub par. He had no idea how to use a bullpen. He was a players coach. Maddon is a players coach with much better in game strategy. Don't argue just to argue Brett.

The Cubs are 20 over and Maddon is a huge part of it.

 

[Parade_Rain]

You can opinion all you want. We have nothing tangible. That's the point.

Winner - Robotic post of the day award.

 

[brett05]

20 games over .500 for starters. Did you even watch Ricky coach? I liked him but his in game managing was sub par. He had no idea how to use a bullpen. He was a players coach. Maddon is a players coach with much better in game strategy. Don't argue just to argue Brett.

The Cubs are 20 over and Maddon is a huge part of it.

I watched him. As a rookie manager he was very impressive. No one wanted a change. Then Maddon became available. Don't write revisionist history here SilenceS just because you can't agree with a White Sox Fan.

You have no idea if this Cub team would be 20 over under Rick. FACT!

 

[brett05]

Winner - Robotic post of the day award.

Your MO shines thru again. Let me know when smart intelligent Parade_Rain returns will ya?

 

[SilenceS]

I watched him. As a rookie manager he was very impressive. No one wanted a change. Then Maddon became available. Don't write revisionist history here SilenceS just because you can't agree with a White Sox Fan.

You have no idea if this Cub team would be 20 over under Rick. FACT!

Lol, everyone was fine with him coming back because there was no one that available that was worth the change. The minute Maddon became available everybody wanted him over Renteria. Don't try to rewrite what happened. Renter was criticized for his in game moves by many posters including me. It had nothing to do with you being a White Sox fan. It has to do is you pick and choose and mix and match to form arguments. Maddon is better coach than Renteria. Want to know why that is fact? Because the consensus around baseball is he is one of the best managers in the game and has the Cubs positioned for the Playoffs. Renteria doesn't have a job. That is fact. Not this mythical alternate universe. Real life. You have tried to downplay Maddon since he came here. That is history and fact.

In the end, the Cubs are 20 over. They could be the first team in history to start 4 rookies and make the playoffs. They have a legit chance to catch the Pirates and Cardinals. Those are facts. So, coming on a Cubs board and trying to downplay a manager that is beloved by a fan base isn't going to get you far. Its screams boredom and jealousy.

Just to reiterate, Maddon is the better coach. Period.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

That said, I've not read/heard one player say Rick wasn't on this path too. I'm not sure Rick wouldn't have had this success as well this season. Basically what I have seen, talent placed aside, that Maddon and Renteria for their respective years have done about the same job. That's all.

We all have our opinions, but what I see is that there is no way Renteria would have had the same success with this team as Maddon. One of the main reasons is Maddon's influence on the roster. Yes, he lost the argument with Baez coming out of ST but my understanding is that Russell wouldn't have been called up as early as he was if he hadn't wanted it. The FO was said to have been aggressively trying to acquire an infielder to create a bridge to Baez who wasn't ready after his sister's death or to Alcantara who was struggling. He also was instrumental in bringing Schwarber up instead of going with Teagarden and Ross when Montero went down. Puting Coghlan at 2B to keep him in the lineup with Schwarber was also largely his decision. I don't think Renteria would have carried the weight to win some of these battles with the FO even if he would have the vision, which I also doubt. Obviously the other thing Maddon has over Renteria is experience in managing people in the general sense. I talk about that frequently but it's incredibly important and while I think Renteria could get there in that are, he seems to have the temperament for it, it was clear last year that he wasn't there yet.

To argue that Renteria and Maddon are the same in terms of impact is madness IMHO of course. I like Renteria and think he will make a very good manager as he gains experience. There could be as many as 10 jobs opening up this next offseason and it would be crazy if he didn't get one of them. I'd hire him if I had a young team without someone in Maddon's league available (John Farrell will probably be the best of the lot out there) but if you had a choice between Rick Renteria and Joe Maddon you choose the latter 10 out of 10 times.

 

[Boobaby1]

That Young Tampa Team is worse than when Maddon had them and they are playing pretty good.

Worse, yes. But lets not hide the fact that he had (5) 90 plus win seasons in Tampa, and last year, they were 18 games under .500 in June, and then rallied back to 5 games under at the end of the year with a week to go, even after losing David Price.

This year is a down year for the AL East. Sure Toronto has risen to the occasion as of late, but they were a .500 team at the deadline and had an 11 game winning streak prior to that.

I have many friends that are Cardinal fans FWIW, and they all say that they would take Maddon right now over Mike Matheny and day of the week.

He must bring something to the table.

 

[brett05]

Lol, everyone was fine with him coming back because there was no one that available that was worth the change. The minute Maddon became available everybody wanted him over Renteria. Don't try to rewrite what happened. Renter was criticized for his in game moves by many posters including me. It had nothing to do with you being a White Sox fan. It has to do is you pick and choose and mix and match to form arguments. Maddon is better coach than Renteria. Want to know why that is fact? Because the consensus around baseball is he is one of the best managers in the game and has the Cubs positioned for the Playoffs. Renteria doesn't have a job. That is fact. Not this mythical alternate universe. Real life. You have tried to downplay Maddon since he came here. That is history and fact.

In the end, the Cubs are 20 over. They could be the first team in history to start 4 rookies and make the playoffs. They have a legit chance to catch the Pirates and Cardinals. Those are facts. So, coming on a Cubs board and trying to downplay a manager that is beloved by a fan base isn't going to get you far. Its screams boredom and jealousy.

Just to reiterate, Maddon is the better coach. Period.

You seriously need to look up what "fact" means.

 

[SilenceS]

Boy, I should become a manager. I would like to be payed millions of dollars just to sit back and let my team play. Sure, I may have to walk out to the mound every now and then to show I am alive but it would be a sweet gig.

 

[brett05]

Worse, yes. But lets not hide the fact that he had (5) 90 plus win seasons in Tampa, and last year, they were 18 games under .500 in June, and then rallied back to 5 games under at the end of the year with a week to go, even after losing David Price.

This year is a down year for the AL East. Sure Toronto has risen to the occasion as of late, but they were a .500 team at the deadline and had an 11 game winning streak prior to that.

I have many friends that are Cardinal fans FWIW, and they all say that they would take Maddon right now over Mike Matheny and day of the week.

He must bring something to the table.

Just saw a list or two this morning that had Matheny over Maddon. Not by friends, but people who actually get paid to do this. One was 120 Sports

 

[SilenceS]

You seriously need to look up what "fact" means.

 

[brett05]

Boy, I should become a manager. I would like to be payed millions of dollars just to sit back and let my team play. Sure, I may have to walk out to the mound every now and then to show I am alive but it would be a sweet gig.

Careful with your straw scarecrow

 

[Parade_Rain]

Your MO shines thru again. Let me know when smart intelligent Parade_Rain returns will ya?

It's robotic, because you can't seem to think outside of basic stats, You take issue with needing verifiable stats to determine a manager's value. Here are two verifiable facts. 1) The Cubs are 20 games over .500. No one expected anything close to that happening at this time. 2) The Cubs are currently the second WC late in the season. Many expected the Cubs to be competitive. Few expected them to actually make the post-season.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Boy, I should become a manager. I would like to be payed millions of dollars just to sit back and let my team play. Sure, I may have to walk out to the mound every now and then to show I am alive but it would be a sweet gig.

I'm sure you could manage the Sux pretty well doing just that very thing.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Just saw a list or two this morning that had Matheny over Maddon. Not by friends, but people who actually get paid to do this. One was 120 Sports

People have to be careful about Cardinal fans. The best baseball fans. LOL. When the Cardinals begin to lose regularly, everyone will see those meatheads for what they are. Every year LaRussa was managing many wanted him replaced.

 

[Parade_Rain]

You seriously need to look up what "fact" means.

I looked it up and it said Brett05 was trolling.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

People have to be careful about Cardinal fans. The best baseball fans. LOL. When the Cardinals begin to lose regularly, everyone will see those meatheads for what they are. Every year LaRussa was managing many wanted him replaced.

I think Matheny competent in a system that's been set up for a by the book manager. I've watched enough Cardinals baseball to realize that he doesn't do anything special. If the injury bug hit them beyond their systems ability to compensate, which of course it hasn't this year, he might not look that much different than the soon-to-be-fried Matt Williams.