The Cubs Hot Stove Action Thread

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dabynsky

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I mean I guess my point of contention here has always just been it really doesn't matter if Bonifacio hasn't always been a useful offensive player because he's been far and away a more useful player than Barney. Like I said, I've never said Bonifacio was amazing. His peak is probably to be an average MLB player unless he some how sustains the 2011. Barney is a good glove and nothing else. Honestly, I just don't see the argument to be made for Barney as an every day player where as there is at least an outside shot if not better one for Bonifacio as an every day player.

If you want to argue Murphy/Valbuena vs Bonifacio I think that is a much better debate. But the way I see it is Barney doesn't provide any offense. He doesn't provide much if any flexibility defensively. All he provides is a good glove at 2B. On the contrary, Bonifacio provides super-utility, average defense and potentially average-above average offense not to mention if he doesn't start he also is a great bench player with his speed being able to pinch run. Hell, Bonifacio is also a good back up case for Sweeney/Lake/OF extravaganza.

So again, if the trade is Barney for Bonifacio straight up I'm taking that deal every day of the week.

Well this is where we are far apart. I want Bonifacio on the Cubs, but I want to give up less to roll the dice on him recovering that magic. I don't love Barney by any stretch, but if he is what he was from 2011-2012 that is basically the realistic projections for Bonifacio. The question is what outliers do you want to believe in, Barney's 2013 or Bonifacio's 2011? Which one of those is closer to each players true talent level pretty much explains why the gap in projections of 18 points of OBP seems like 20-30 to you and more 10-20 to me.

Barney also certainly could play more than 2B if asked to do so, but due to his extreme defensive value he rarely is asked to move.
 

SilenceS

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I think yall are looking at this wrong. I think they would make this move because Bonifacio is more versatile with speed we need. He would be way more useful to the team then Barney because Alcantara is coming and second is his destination. I would venture to guess that you see Alcantara and Baez not to far apart. Alcantara would give plus D at second already and scouts believe he would hit better then Barney right now. Barney can not play any position except second. I would make this trade. Cubs do not need Barney and he isnt part of the future going forward.
 

SilenceS

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Well this is where we are far apart. I want Bonifacio on the Cubs, but I want to give up less to roll the dice on him recovering that magic. I don't love Barney by any stretch, but if he is what he was from 2011-2012 that is basically the realistic projections for Bonifacio. The question is what outliers do you want to believe in, Barney's 2013 or Bonifacio's 2011? Which one of those is closer to each players true talent level pretty much explains why the gap in projections of 18 points of OBP seems like 20-30 to you and more 10-20 to me.

Barney also certainly could play more than 2B if asked to do so, but due to his extreme defensive value he rarely is asked to move.

Barney doesnt have a real good arm. Where would he play? Third? No way! Short? He would just be average. His D at second is the only thing that gives him any sort of value. Barney is completely expandable. You are not getting anything more for him from anyone.
 

dabynsky

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Barney doesnt have a real good arm. Where would he play? Third? No way! Short? He would just be average. His D at second is the only thing that gives him any sort of value. Barney is completely expandable. You are not getting anything more for him from anyone.
He could play SS and while his defense would probably take a hit from elite. I don't think Barney nets anything wonderful in a trade, but I don't see the price being that high on a DFA like Bonifacio.
 

chibears55

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lmao at yhe debate over which below average player is better. . Barney or bonafacio. .

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Boobaby1

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lmao at yhe debate over which below average player is better. . Barney or bonafacio. .

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Yeah! Get them both on the team and the Cubs could have their own version of the "Killer B's". :beerbang:
 

beckdawg

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I think yall are looking at this wrong. I think they would make this move because Bonifacio is more versatile with speed we need. He would be way more useful to the team then Barney because Alcantara is coming and second is his destination. I would venture to guess that you see Alcantara and Baez not to far apart. Alcantara would give plus D at second already and scouts believe he would hit better then Barney right now. Barney can not play any position except second. I would make this trade. Cubs do not need Barney and he isnt part of the future going forward.

I made that point about alcantara some where in my ranting. That said, I'm still struggling to understand dabynsky's point that Barney is some how too much to give up for Bonifacio.
 

Boobaby1

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I made that point about alcantara some where in my ranting. That said, I'm still struggling to understand dabynsky's point that Barney is some how too much to give up for Bonifacio.

How much different is it when I and others have suggested that you should improve whenever, wherever at every position when you can, only to get lambasted because the difference might be 1, 5, or 10 wins extra per year and still not make the playoffs? :shrug:
 

DewsSox79

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I made that point about alcantara some where in my ranting. That said, I'm still struggling to understand dabynsky's point that Barney is some how too much to give up for Bonifacio.

because some people look at his flawed WAR couple seasons ago. He in a utility late inning defensive replacement right now. nothing more nothing less. He will start for the cubs since the roster is bad. on a 500 or above team he is NOT a starter. he could easily be DFAd


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SilenceS

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because some people look at his flawed WAR couple seasons ago. He in a utility late inning defensive replacement right now. nothing more nothing less. He will start for the cubs since the roster is bad. on a 500 or above team he is NOT a starter. he could easily be DFAd


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And what would Barney be?
 

beckdawg

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How much different is it when I and others have suggested that you should improve whenever, wherever at every position when you can, only to get lambasted because the difference might be 1, 5, or 10 wins extra per year and still not make the playoffs? :shrug:

Why you trying to pick a fight here? I have never said trying to get better is a bad thing. I've suggested throwing $10-15 mil a year at an average player is not the way to do it. I've suggested throwing $25 mil/year at Tanaka who's considered a #2 when Garza who's also considered a #2 gets $13 mil is not the way to do it. I've suggested Soriano who will be 38 IIRC and making $19 mil for 1 year is not the way to do it because I honestly feel some of the players they currently have are better long term bets.

What annoys me is many around here act like if you're not in for throwing tons of money at the problem then you're not in favor of getting better. I said long before Tanaka signed that if it approached $25 mil/year I would rather they backed out, signed a different pitcher as a stop gap and then get creative with their money by trying to trade for someone like Either who at $15 mil/year(assuming the dodgers would eat a little of his remaining money) is more than an average player. That's a good value. I have also said that I was against Cano/Ellsbury like deals.... at the moment. And the reason for that is you have to get the majority of the value of a deal out of the first 3-4 years and at present time that does nothing for the cubs until they are at least an average team which clearly they aren't. If they want to make those sorts of move in 2015 or 2016 once some of their prospects come up to address somewhere likely pitching then fine.

In other words, it's not the improving that I, and I assume others, have a problem with. It's the way you go about doing it. And for what it's worth, I'm in no way saying that all of the moves the cubs have made were right. I for one would like to see them more active in the acquiring MLB players via trade route which should be obvious by my suggestion of Either. Its hard to say what's actually out there but I would have liked to see them get Dexter Fowler for what little he fetched. Fister was another guy who went seemingly cheap. Fowler in particular would be an improvement to Sweeney/Lake in CF.
 

dabynsky

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because some people look at his flawed WAR couple seasons ago. He in a utility late inning defensive replacement right now. nothing more nothing less. He will start for the cubs since the roster is bad. on a 500 or above team he is NOT a starter. he could easily be DFAd


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And the point is that Bonifacio is utility player as well who has been DFA'd. I can see an argument for making the move I've only debated the status of it is a no-brainer, slam dunk upgrade of swapping bench guys.
 

brett05

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And the point is that Bonifacio is utility player as well who has been DFA'd. I can see an argument for making the move I've only debated the status of it is a no-brainer, slam dunk upgrade of swapping bench guys.

And debated it quite well I might add. Glad to see fans of the Cubs disagree intelligently.
 

Boobaby1

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Why you trying to pick a fight here? I have never said trying to get better is a bad thing. I've suggested throwing $10-15 mil a year at an average player is not the way to do it. I've suggested throwing $25 mil/year at Tanaka who's considered a #2 when Garza who's also considered a #2 gets $13 mil is not the way to do it. I've suggested Soriano who will be 38 IIRC and making $19 mil for 1 year is not the way to do it because I honestly feel some of the players they currently have are better long term bets.

What annoys me is many around here act like if you're not in for throwing tons of money at the problem then you're not in favor of getting better. I said long before Tanaka signed that if it approached $25 mil/year I would rather they backed out, signed a different pitcher as a stop gap and then get creative with their money by trying to trade for someone like Either who at $15 mil/year(assuming the dodgers would eat a little of his remaining money) is more than an average player. That's a good value. I have also said that I was against Cano/Ellsbury like deals.... at the moment. And the reason for that is you have to get the majority of the value of a deal out of the first 3-4 years and at present time that does nothing for the cubs until they are at least an average team which clearly they aren't. If they want to make those sorts of move in 2015 or 2016 once some of their prospects come up to address somewhere likely pitching then fine.

In other words, it's not the improving that I, and I assume others, have a problem with. It's the way you go about doing it. And for what it's worth, I'm in no way saying that all of the moves the cubs have made were right. I for one would like to see them more active in the acquiring MLB players via trade route which should be obvious by my suggestion of Either. Its hard to say what's actually out there but I would have liked to see them get Dexter Fowler for what little he fetched. Fister was another guy who went seemingly cheap. Fowler in particular would be an improvement to Sweeney/Lake in CF.


Pick a fight? Hardly.

Call it frustration, but it's disgusting being the bridesmaid in every deal with players moving this train wreck forward, and furthermore, it's even more disgusting that they are bringing in candidates who have arm troubles and paying them to boot. Talk about trying to catch lightening in a bottle, and for what, to ship them off IF they perform for another bullpen arm or two. Really? You can get those bullpen arms at any time.

They went from Tanaka to Hammel. Talk about dropping off a cliff. Because they waited and hedged everything on Tanaka and whiffed, they missed out on your Fister or other players, and now the Cubs have a team that is even worse than last years team with another year of assessing if Josh Vitter's can become a cheap alternative or a utility player down the road.

It's pointless to say that this guy or that guy is an upgrade regardless if they are a starter or utility player. The brass is doing it their way, and as Cubs fans, we have to take it.

In a nutshell, anything the Cubs have or was brought in that remotely is an upgrade is either traded, or on the trading block.

It seems as though a lot of people on here are talking a rebound from Castro, Rizzo, and E-Jax. Well, I ain't holding my breath because their is just as good of a chance that even if they progress, that players like Schierholtz, Wood, and Lake regress.

So where is the improvement? In the farm again with another top 5 pick?
 

chibears55

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Yenier Bello Cleared To Sign With MLB Teams

By Steve Adams [January 24, 2014 at 10:38am CST]

Cuban catcher Yenier Bello has been cleared by the United States Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) and is now free to sign with a Major League club, according to MLB.com's Jesse Sanchez.

The 28-year-old Bello was cleared to sign by Major League Baseball back on Oct. 1 and has been scouted by as many as 15-20 Major League teams. Sanchez lists the Dodgers, Cubs and Blue Jays as teams that have been connected to Bello, who is said to offer some pop from behind the dish. He batted .274 with 13 homers in Cuba's Serie Nacional in 2011 -- a league in which the regular season is just 90 games long.

It's unclear what type of commitment it would take for a team to land Bello, but doesn't appear to be on the same prospect level as recent Cuban signees Jose Dariel Abreu, Yasiel Puig, Yoenis Cespedes and Aroldis Chapman. Because he is older than 23 and has more than three years of professional experience, Bello will not be subject to the international spending limitations laid out in the most recent Collective Bargaining Agreement; Bello can sign with any team for any amount. Now that he's been cleared to sign, I've added Bello's name to our 2014 Free Agent list.
 

SilenceS

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Rumors are circulating that Seattle is sniffing around for Shark and Russell package. Cubs are reportedly still standing strong on a strong package for them.
 

brett05

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Rumors are circulating that Seattle is sniffing around for Shark and Russell package. Cubs are reportedly still standing strong on a strong package for them.

When you can get jimenez or santana there's no way Sea pays a lot

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SilenceS

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When you can get jimenez or santana there's no way Sea pays a lot

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They both cost picks and wont be as cheap and dont come with a lefty reliever that is cheap. They may not pay but your reasoning is a little short sidded.
 

brett05

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They both cost picks and wont be as cheap and dont come with a lefty reliever that is cheap. They may not pay but your reasoning is a little short sidded.

No its not. They cost a 2nd, right? There's no way they come up w what the Cubs want.

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