The Myth Of "Finishing Checks" Thread

[FirstTimer]

There's always going to be the winner and loser of a fight and game. I've seen and been in games where a guy fights loses and it still lifts the bench. I don't know if you've ever played the game or what your background is with the sport but I can tell you a fight puts a jump in both teams games. Some guys can go out and get that extra jump in their teams game, some cant.

:yadontsay:

Then how can you post a study trying to correlate fighting to winning? It's confirmation bias at it's finest. "This guy fought and he won and his team won...FIGHTING WORKS!".

"But umm what about the times where the guys gets his ass handed to him and his team still wins?" IT PUT A JUMP IN HIS TEAM!

It's Special person. Stop.

My background is that I've been a fan of and watched the game for 20 years.

 

[FirstTimer]

The irony is that the Abdelkader hit basically cost the Red Wings that game. The Ducks scored on the ensuing PP, and Detroit never came back.

My issue with Abdelkader is that if he was so intent on making a big hit, why not make a big hit thats actually a hockey play? Knock someone off the puck...don't target a guy and cheap shot him. If the Red Wings need cheap shots to fire themselves up, then they are in serious trouble regardless.

But wait..isn't fighting supposed to be a deterrent to these types of hits?

 

[DMelt36]

The irony is that the Abdelkader hit basically cost the Red Wings that game. The Ducks scored on the ensuing PP, and Detroit never came back.

My issue with Abdelkader is that if he was so intent on making a big hit, why not make a big hit thats actually a hockey play? Knock someone off the puck...don't target a guy and cheap shot him. If the Red Wings need cheap shots to fire themselves up, then they are in serious trouble regardless.

Because Abdelkader is a fucking idiot? I really don't have a good answer for why he decided to launch himself at Lydman. But just because that was the end result doesn't imply that Babcock tapped him on the shoulder and said "Go get yourself 5 and a game for charging." It's possible that Babcock was telling the guys to hit someone in order to liven up the team a bit, yes. Abdelkader may have just gotten carried away.

But wait..isn't fighting supposed to be a deterrent to these types of hits?

Not anymore. Not since the instigator rule. And if you're arguing with fans who believe that, you're arguing with the bottom of the fan base barrel. Presenting Brandon Bollig's skates on the ice while Raffi Torres tried to decapitate Hossa last year as evidence.

My belief is that the role of fighting in the NHL now should be that when two players develop a sudden or long-building (like the Toews/Thornton scrap this year) disdain for each other, you let them punch each other stupid for a minute and get the dumb shit over with. Would I have a problem if they removed that aspect from the game? No. But I'm not opposed to it staying around, either. Sort of indifferent.

The interesting study, to me, would be to see if there's an effect on the number of cheap shots taken when fighting is removed from the game. If the league removes a somewhat-sanctioned fight as a way to end differences between two players, I'd wonder what would happen if that option was removed, because players will still find a way to get even. It just may start falling more outside of the rules.

 

[HawkWriter]

But by the same token, if you remove fighting, then there would be no reason for teams to carry an end-of-the-bench hatchet man whose only purpose is to start fights and take cheap shots. I would think that would lessen the number of cheap shots in itself.

How many teams actually carry a player like that any more? There are very, very few players in the NHL right now that can't play the game. Get rid of fighting and teams will still carry some sandpaper on their 4th line.

 

[DMelt36]

Don't know. Maybe I'm used to the days of every team having a Rob Ray, Brad May, Basil McRae, Craig Berube, etc.

There are still some of those guys out there. Hawks still put Brandon Bollig in the lineup for reasons that continue to befuddle me when they have at least 5 other, better options. But the number of those guys in the league is rapidly declining.

 

[Diehardfan]

There are still some of those guys out there. Hawks still put Brandon Bollig in the lineup for reasons that continue to befuddle me when they have at least 5 other, better options. But the number of those guys in the league is rapidly declining.

Yeah, used to be that nearly every team had their own goon. Trouble is, that with the salary cap, teams didnt want to waste a roster spot and cap room on players that couldnt do much of anything but fight. Guys like John Scott or Cam Janssen are useless with their gloves on. It's a bit more difficult finding guys that can/will fight plus be good enough to take a regular shift. Hence, Bollig. He's not a good player by any stretch but he won't hurt you playing like a Scott or Janssen would.

 

[BilliamVonWinkle]

i dont like hockey

 

[KBIB]

I never said it wasn't part of the game. I said it's stupid. Which it is.

This.

80% of the fights now are staged garbage. Bettman pussified the league to lessen the physicality for his pets Crysby, Toews,Malkin, and OV.

Just wait, once Crysby gets concussed out the league the fighting will go back up to 80's levels when a team needed two heavies on the bench at all times. Just wont happen now with the dedication to smaller skilled players.



Crust

 

[DMelt36]

This.

80% of the fights now are staged garbage. Bettman pussified the league to lessen the physicality for his pets Crysby, Toews,Malkin, and OV.

Crust

Haha, seriously? I mean, you've gotta be joking, right?

Taking fights out of the league has "pussified" it?

 

[KBIB]

Haha, seriously? I mean, you've gotta be joking, right?

Taking fights out of the league has "pussified" it?

Taking everything out the league pussified it. I could care less about fights and said 80% of them are staged garbage. Taking the hitting out the league pussified it. Scott Stevens would be considered a cheap shot artist in todays game. Chelios, Lindros, Messier, guys who played physical, tough hockey would be pariahs.

Sorry, I remember when going into the stadium meant the other teams was gonna get their ass kicked even if they won. You cant even breath on star players now.



Crust.

 

[DMelt36]

Taking everything out the league pussified it. I could care less about fights and said 80% of them are staged garbage. Taking the hitting out the league pussified it. Scott Stevens would be considered a cheap shot artist in todays game. Chelios, Lindros, Messier, guys who played physical, tough hockey would be pariahs.

Sorry, I remember when going into the stadium meant the other teams was gonna get their ass kicked even if they won. You cant even breath on star players now.



Crust.

Sounds just like all of the NFL fans who complain about Roger Goodell.

God forbid leagues try to prevent their athletes from having their brains turned to mush by the time they're 50 by legislating against hits that target the most vital part of the human body.

 

[KBIB]

Sounds just like all of the NFL fans who complain about Roger Goodell.

God forbid leagues try to prevent their athletes from having their brains turned to mush by the time they're 50 by legislating against hits that target the most vital part of the human body.

Considering those same players know what they are getting into, if physical play scares them there are a bevy of jobs out there where they can acquire wealth in a more peaceful manner.

Having your cake and eating it too belittles what the players before them sacrificed.



Crust

 

[KBIB]

How many teams actually carry a player like that any more? There are very, very few players in the NHL right now that can't play the game. Get rid of fighting and teams will still carry some sandpaper on their 4th line.

Er...whut?

Every team has a goon with the exception of Detoilet who have Tootoo who is almost that close to useless. Where do you come up with this?


Crust

 

[HawkWriter]

Er...whut?

Every team has a goon with the exception of Detoilet who have Tootoo who is almost that close to useless. Where do you come up with this?


Crust

Depends what your definition of a goon is. The days of a player like John Scott, who can't play the game and can only fight, are virtually gone. I'd disagree in saying that every team carries a goon. Every roster spot is valuable in the NHL today. There are very few true goons out there who have the sole purpose of fighting and bring nothing else to the table.

Also - Tootoo is close to useless? 30 points last year and plenty of sandpaper, I certainly wouldn't call that useless. A guy like him just needs to put up 15 points a year and play his game...he can play in the NHL.

 

[KBIB]

Depends what your definition of a goon is. The days of a player like John Scott, who can't play the game and can only fight, are virtually gone. I'd disagree in saying that every team carries a goon. Every roster spot is valuable in the NHL today. There are very few true goons out there who have the sole purpose of fighting and bring nothing else to the table.

Bollig, Scott, Orr,Janssens, Stu Bickel, Carkner,Gillies, Brad Staubitz,etc. I could go on and on. None of those players bring anything to the table with gloves on and a stick in their hand. Every team has one of those and every single one of them is a goon.

Also - Tootoo is close to useless? 30 points last year and plenty of sandpaper, I certainly wouldn't call that useless. A guy like him just needs to put up 15 points a year and play his game...he can play in the NHL.

Tootoo's best years are behind him. He lost a ton of speed, his only saving grace besides being a punching bag. He couldn't keep up in Detoilets system and was delegated to mop up duty on account of his thick, calcified skull slowed him down. His NHL contract now will be his last. He doesn't bring anything to a championship team.


Wow.....


Crust

 

[HawkWriter]

Bollig, Scott, Orr,Janssens, Stu Bickel, Carkner,Gillies, Brad Staubitz,etc. I could go on and on. None of those players bring anything to the table with gloves on and a stick in their hand. Every team has one of those and every single one of them is a goon.
Tootoo's best years are behind him. He lost a ton of speed, his only saving grace besides being a punching bag. He couldn't keep up in Detoilets system and was delegated to mop up duty on account of his thick, calcified skull slowed him down. His NHL contract now will be his last. He doesn't bring anything to a championship team.


Wow.....


Crust

Most of the guys you just named, played in very few games this year. Just goes to prove, pure goons aren't being used like they used to. Very few of them are in the NHL today.

Tootoo will get another contract. He isn't useless and he helps his team on the 4th line. He has some value there.

Dude...

Peanut Butter

 

[KBIB]

Most of the guys you just named, played in very few games this year.

Wasn't the point. They are still on NHL teams and those names are just off the top of my head.

Just goes to prove, pure goons aren't being used like they used to. Very few of them are in the NHL today.

Again, every team has one, so.....

Tootoo will get another contract. He isn't useless and he helps his team on the 4th line. He has some value there.

So does Carcillo. Doesn't mean he deserves to be taking time away from a younger player. Not only that, but did you actually watch Tootoo this year? I wont even mention how he has only suited up for one game so far in the playoffs, but you do know he is a considerable liability if he isn't boarding somebody from the blind side, correct? Or that he is a career minus player who has a putrid reputation for taking bad penalties?

You want to talk about how goons aren't in the current NHL then defend a complete goon in Tootoo?


(scratches head)



Crust

 

[KBIB]

Preceded by...

Shuush. Hes on a roll.

For somebody with a nic like "Hawkwriter" there has to be something interesting about hockey coming from him/her sooner or later.


Crust

 

[HawkWriter]

Preceded by...

Don't get your point. One doesn't contradict the other. He named a few guys and barely any of them played or are even considered 100% goons.

Very few teams have a pure goon anymore that can't play hockey. Just how it is.

 

[HawkWriter]

Shuush. Hes on a roll.

For somebody with a nic like "Hawkwriter" there has to be something interesting about hockey coming from him/her sooner or later.


Crust

Keep reading instead of dismissing, you'll get there.

Peanut Butter