Theo Epstein Delivers Death Sentence to Chicago Cubs Future

[daddies3angels]

I said the Cubs. That would be the major league roster, which is the only thing that matters according to most around here. The fact is that the Cubs were a mess at every level when Theo Epstein took over and that needs to be acknowledged when we talk about what is and isn't possible.

See around here when people say Cubs i think they mean Minors since that only thing that seems to matter. They rather have top farm rank then MLB team winning


Also for fans the MLB club is all that should matter. Yes Theo and FO need to worry about the future but fans should only be worried about 2014 team now.

 

[patg006]

This is probably the most clueless post about the Cubs

Here's reasons why Cubs shouldnt be compared to Houston and Pit
1. Better scouts and player development system
2. Money to bring in Free Agents when the young guys come up

Just because you send a kid to school doesnt mean he will be smart. He needs good teachers. Just like baseball players need good coaches. Some teams just have better coaches then others. Simple fact.

Chris J's misguided sense of idiocy at its finest.

Pirates have spent, Houston is being told to spend because their payroll is abysmally low.

The cubs have followed in their footsteps. Ignore the ML team, its all about Florida State league championships!

 

[patg006]

Good stuff. Like the direct tone and "on the warpath" style. But LOL at implying that Rush is a competent mod...he is by far the most incompetent mod. He doesn't even moderate any more.

Ahhhhh yes. It was only a matter of time before this genius of a human specimen shows up on his soapbox.

Tell me rory, when you're not busy giving your old cow the 'heave ho,' how do you maintain your intellect?

Rush was the one saying 'play nice kids, both sides.' Something I was okay with.

Of course, other posters got singled out because the :fap: squad got panties in a bunch from 2 guys trying to point out reality.

 

[patg006]

Dammit. I had gone all day without being called a name. Heart = broken.

You still owe me pie, asshole. Fisch too, but I got dibs.

Rhubarb aint in season? You better make it so it is.......

 

[Parade_Rain]

Of course, other posters got singled out because the :fap: squad got panties in a bunch from 2 guys trying to point out reality.

Putting this into proper perspective it's 2 guys "perception of" reality.

 

[Boobaby1]

Sure is funny how STL and BOS keep putting out Top 5 farms WHILE being in WS contention year in and out

St Louis has been at the apex as far as farm systems is concerned, but it hasn't always been this way.

If memory serves me right, in the late 90's, early 2000's, it is true that because St Louis was a mid-market team that they followed a particular guideline as far as utilizing their farm system to help put players on the field at a competitive price. In fact, every team tries to do this.

However, they were fortunate enough to not only have an Albert Pujols in the system, make a few stellar trades, but Bill DeWitt had directly told Walt Jocketty at the time to spend money at the parent level to keep the Cardinals towards the top and competitive which kept fans in the seats.

Basically, they could have taken the longer route to develop their team, but they chose to do the BOTH thing.

Jeff Luhnow (who is now with Houston) was then hired and put in charge of scouting and development. Bill DeWitt had said that while the Cardinals were competing at the major league level, he wanted to take a different approach with the farm system and build the best farm in baseball stockpiled with arms to give them a long-term competitive run which they have accomplished.

One could also argue that Boston took a very similar approach because they already had some handsome free agents on the team in the early 2000's, then they too started the focus on the farm which enabled them to make a few trades with those talents, promote cost-effective guys to the parent team, thus leading to prolonged success. opcorn:

 

[daddies3angels]

St Louis has been at the apex as far as farm systems is concerned, but it hasn't always been this way.

If memory serves me right, in the late 90's, early 2000's, it is true that because St Louis was a mid-market team that they followed a particular guideline as far as utilizing their farm system to help put players on the field at a competitive price. In fact, every team tries to do this.

However, they were fortunate enough to not only have an Albert Pujols in the system, make a few stellar trades, but Bill DeWitt had directly told Walt Jocketty at the time to spend money at the parent level to keep the Cardinals towards the top and competitive which kept fans in the seats.

Basically, they could have taken the longer route to develop their team, but they chose to do the BOTH thing.

Jeff Luhnow (who is now with Houston) was then hired and put in charge of scouting and development. Bill DeWitt had said that while the Cardinals were competing at the major league level, he wanted to take a different approach with the farm system and build the best farm in baseball stockpiled with arms to give them a long-term competitive run which they have accomplished.

One could also argue that Boston took a very similar approach because they already had some handsome free agents on the team in the early 2000's, then they too started the focus on the farm which enabled them to make a few trades with those talents, promote cost-effective guys to the parent team, thus leading to prolonged success. opcorn:

So if a MID MARKET team can do this why couldnt a Big Market like the Cubs? Thats all i have been bitching about since Ricketts took over!! He not running team like a Big market but basically a small market while charging top NL ticket prices. If Cubs were a Medium or Small Market team i would be bedhind this 100%!!! But my team is Big Market and should be trying to do BOTH. I agree Cubs need to build a top farm. I think thats VERY important. I also believe Cubs could have done this process alot differently and thats my problem

 

[Parade_Rain]

St Louis isn't in debt like Ricketts and they have a new stadium and not a dump that needs significant updating.

 

[Rice Cube]

This entire thread...

 

[SilenceS]

St Louis isn't in debt like Ricketts and they have a new stadium and not a dump that needs significant updating.

Eh, Ricketts knew what he was buying going in. I don't buy that excuse. He also told Theo and fans he wanted to make the Cubs the New York Yankees of the NL. Well, I wouldn't say that when your plan entails curt tailing spending until your other projects are done so you take a cash cow and make an even bigger cash cow. Him buying a hotel and other expenses is on him. He is putting personal endeavors over the main club. Mark Cuban is owner. I guarantee the Cubs are spending while building a farm. Ricketts is in this for money. Nothing wrong with it. I just don't understand how some people cant see what he is doing. He isn't saving money to all the sudden spend it later. There is a reason the Ricketts family is billionaires.

 

[dabynsky]

Around and around this conversation goes yet again. The fact remains that this team could have bought second tier players on the decline to put together a more competitive roster that had a slim chance of making into the postseason against clearly superior competition. That route would have resulted in taking a lot longer to rebuild the farm system. Or they could have ripped the band aid off like they have the past two seasons and now is on the cusp of several impact prospects being available in the next two seasons. Neither approach offers a guarantee of success, but I like the odds of developing a true championship roster when you look at the realities of the baseball marketplace today through this route than the band aid approach of previous adminstrations.

 

[daddies3angels]

Around and around this conversation goes yet again. The fact remains that this team could have bought second tier players on the decline to put together a more competitive roster that had a slim chance of making into the postseason against clearly superior competition. That route would have resulted in taking a lot longer to rebuild the farm system. Or they could have ripped the band aid off like they have the past two seasons and now is on the cusp of several impact prospects being available in the next two seasons. Neither approach offers a guarantee of success, but I like the odds of developing a true championship roster when you look at the realities of the baseball marketplace today through this route than the band aid approach of previous adminstrations.

Point is if he treated team like Big Market they wouldnt have put band aids on team. They should have went out and put legit talent in MLB like Yu, Cespdes, Ryu, Sanchez etc Instead they say there were in bidding where its no accident they finished 2nd or 3rd on all of them. Dab if Cubs were NOT Big Market then i completely agree with what they doing. But they are a Big Market team and should have acted like it last 4 yrs with Ricketts running team. Instead he made team into a money making machine for him and his family. He a business man and nothing more. All he cares about is making $

 

[dabynsky]

Point is if he treated team like Big Market they wouldnt have put band aids on team. They should have went out and put legit talent in MLB like Yu, Cespdes, Ryu, Sanchez etc Instead they say there were in bidding where its no accident they finished 2nd or 3rd on all of them. Dab if Cubs were NOT Big Market then i completely agree with what they doing. But they are a Big Market team and should have acted like it last 4 yrs with Ricketts running team. Instead he made team into a money making machine for him and his family. He a business man and nothing more. All he cares about is making $

The examples you have given would have hardly guaranteed that this roster would have been better than the fourth best in the division this season, and would have resulted in a ridiculous amount of money guaranteed in the short term. That also ignores that this team could have easily been screwed by guessing wrong on big name free agents (remember how much of a fit BJ Upton was this last offseason as just one example). Basically what you are asking for is this team to spend a ton 150-160 million dollars and guess right on every single deal they make to even have a shot of catching up to three franchises that have been well built for years. And all of that comes at a cost of developing the farm system by drafting lower and not trading moveable assets for future assets. I get it. It is Chicago and we have seen far more 60 win teams than 90 win teams. But free agency was not going to solve this problem unless they got absolutely every decision right and commited more dollars than any other ownership group and that is the only other avenue available when Theo Epstein took over that might result in a championship caliber roster.

 

[SilenceS]

Around and around this conversation goes yet again. The fact remains that this team could have bought second tier players on the decline to put together a more competitive roster that had a slim chance of making into the postseason against clearly superior competition. That route would have resulted in taking a lot longer to rebuild the farm system. Or they could have ripped the band aid off like they have the past two seasons and now is on the cusp of several impact prospects being available in the next two seasons. Neither approach offers a guarantee of success, but I like the odds of developing a true championship roster when you look at the realities of the baseball marketplace today through this route than the band aid approach of previous adminstrations.

The only player the Cubs would miss out on would be Kris Bryant and whoever they draft this year. Baez and Almora would still be in the farm and you have no idea what the draft Kris Bryant was in will produce. After that, it wouldn't make a difference. So, you are saying Kris Bryant is worth not building a team for 3 years at the ML level without even taking a ML at bat?

 

[ChiSoxCity]

The Cubs plan to spend about $50M on payroll next year, not because of the farm system, but because they want to reduce operating cost and increase revenue for the owners. It's just that simple.

Depending solely on your farm system to produce big league talent takes a hell of a lot longer than what Epstein estimates. Most prospects never work out or end up with other clubs. It could take 10 years before you have enough talent to be a serious championship contender. Cubs fans need to wake up, man.

The Cubs are a sleeping giant. They're positioned in the largest market in the division with a Billionaire owner, and a deeply loyal fanbase. This team should be FAR better than it is at this juncture. There is simply no excuse for not increasing payroll to get better for the upcoming season.

CORRECTION: The Cubs will most likely add about $50M to fill out their roster with marginal players... again.

 

[SilenceS]

CHICAGO -- Even while continuing to sell his plan for rebuilding, Chicago Cubs president Theo Epstein admits to mistakes over the course of his first two years in charge.

Although the Cubs have been able to acquire talent throughout the organization over the past two seasons, Epstein says he hasn't provided the best atmosphere at the major league level for development.

"I haven't done a good job at that," he said to a room full of season-ticket holders at the Bank of America Theatre on Friday.

Epstein believes he's fixed that problem with Thursday's hiring of San Diego Padres bench coach Rick Renteria, who replaces Dale Sveum as manager.

The biggest missteps have come in the handling of the offense and specifically his shortstop, Starlin Castro. The Cubs ranked 14th in on-base percentage -- an admitted critical category -- in the National League while Castro hit .245, the lowest of his career.

"That's one area where we had mixed messages," Epstein said. "We had players being pulled in a couple different directions."

That might not bode well for the return of hitting coach James Rowson or his assistant, Rob Deer. And it may have helped cost Sveum his job. Epstein said the Cubs will make coaching decisions in the coming days, and hitting coach will be an important one.

"We do stand for something from an offensive standpoint," Epstein said. "We like to control the zone, we like to get on-base ... We have to teach it in a way that allows players to be themselves."

It's a notion he said often late in the year regarding Castro, who has regressed in his two seasons under this regime. The hope is Renteria can help the two-time All-Star return to stardom.

"When I first saw Starlin Castro come up to the big leagues, he was a kid who had a lot of energy, a lot of joy to go out there and play the game," Renteria told the "Carmen & Jurko Show" on ESPN Chicago 1000. "I get that everybody says here's a kid who has [mental] lapses. I actually know him from the other side, and I've always thought if I believe a young man has a particular limitation -- and let's assume it's just a lapse or focus at a particular time -- if I know that, then it's my job even from the bench quite frankly, to continue to keep guys in tune to what's going on."

Epstein said: "[It's] not the same message for every player, but every player gets just one message."

Epstein wasn't done being "self-critical." A season-ticket holder asked him about pitcher Edwin Jackson's 8-18 season after signing a four-year, $52 million deal last winter.

"Given the situation, I think we could have been more patient," Epstein said. "We could have been more in line with the plan. That said, when there is no pitching you have to find pitching.

"I was being self-critical. Anytime you make an investment that doesn't immediately pay off, especially when you don't have tremendous freedom to make a variety of significant investments, you should be hard on yourself."

Epstein was quick to point out Jackson has three years left to prove himself a worthy addition.

"We believe there is a lot better ahead for Edwin Jackson," Epstein said.

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/cubs/po ... rebuilding

 

[Sunbiz1]

The Cubs plan to spend about $50M on payroll next year, not because of the farm system, but because they want to reduce operating cost and increase revenue for the owners. It's just that simple.

Depending solely on your farm system to produce big league talent takes a hell of a lot longer than what Epstein estimates. Most prospects never work out or end up with other clubs. It could take 10 years before you have enough talent to be a serious championship contender. Cubs fans need to wake up, man.

The Cubs are a sleeping giant. They're positioned in the largest market in the division with a Billionaire owner, and a deeply loyal fanbase. This team should be FAR better than it is at this juncture. There is simply no excuse for not increasing payroll to get better for the upcoming season.

CORRECTION: The Cubs will most likely add about $50M to fill out their roster with marginal players... again.

They don't have to spend $$, Wrigley is enough of cash-cow they don't need a loyal fan base to turn a profit.

Last time I was actually inside Wrigley, Fukudome was on the roster...and the place was chock full of Japanese tourists.

I would advise Cub fans to emotionally detach themselves from this franchise.

 

[nwfisch]

They don't have to spend $$, Wrigley is enough of cash-cow they don't need a loyal fan base to turn a profit.

Last time I was actually inside Wrigley, Fukudome was on the roster...and the place was chock full of Japanese tourists.

I would advise Cub fans to emotionally detach themselves from this franchise.

Trust me, I have for almost two years now. I've been a lot happier.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Eh, Ricketts knew what he was buying going in. I don't buy that excuse. He also told Theo and fans he wanted to make the Cubs the New York Yankees of the NL. Well, I wouldn't say that when your plan entails curt tailing spending until your other projects are done so you take a cash cow and make an even bigger cash cow. Him buying a hotel and other expenses is on him. He is putting personal endeavors over the main club. Mark Cuban is owner. I guarantee the Cubs are spending while building a farm. Ricketts is in this for money. Nothing wrong with it. I just don't understand how some people cant see what he is doing. He isn't saving money to all the sudden spend it later. There is a reason the Ricketts family is billionaires.

Yeah there's a reason. Daddy hit it big.

 

[daddies3angels]

The examples you have given would have hardly guaranteed that this roster would have been better than the fourth best in the division this season, and would have resulted in a ridiculous amount of money guaranteed in the short term. That also ignores that this team could have easily been screwed by guessing wrong on big name free agents (remember how much of a fit BJ Upton was this last offseason as just one example). Basically what you are asking for is this team to spend a ton 150-160 million dollars and guess right on every single deal they make to even have a shot of catching up to three franchises that have been well built for years. And all of that comes at a cost of developing the farm system by drafting lower and not trading moveable assets for future assets. I get it. It is Chicago and we have seen far more 60 win teams than 90 win teams. But free agency was not going to solve this problem unless they got absolutely every decision right and commited more dollars than any other ownership group and that is the only other avenue available when Theo Epstein took over that might result in a championship caliber roster.

So were saying if Cubs spent money on Ryu, Yu, Cespdes, that they wouldnt be a different ball club?? None of those guys are short term. They all would have been long term and MLB ready. Now team is praying on guys in AA and A ball to become what Ryu, Cespdes, Yu have turned into