Trade deadline/rumors

[TL1961]

The only bad thing anyone can say about this Chapman deal is that they kinda overpaid by including a top prospect in Torres who could have been used in a trade for young, cost controlled TOR SP, i.e. player type Cubs currently lack the most.

On the other hand, if they could somehow get Sale by the trade deadline (for a player combination mentioned by CSF77) then this team would be an absolute, hands down favorite to win the title.

They're the favorite now.

 

[CSF77]

I don't mind that they traded these players, but I don't like the return. They gave up too much for a 3 month rental closer. An overpay is an overpay. They never once lead vs the Mets and I think they gave up a run every first inning. A closer is not going to help that. They needed starting pitching more than an elite closer and maybe another situational lefty out of the pen.

I think they may have overpaid severely twice now. All in on the season does not mean getting fleeced. If they don't win the WS this season they overplayed their hands. As a GM you don't ever want to go that far in on the season.

Lastly, a closer just does not have enough impact on the game. He won't help them at all for innings 1-5 and that is over half the game. All he can do is shift people down one inning so that means it helps you one inning extra a game. I would rather have another starter or a bat. Both will have far more impact in the playoffs.

This is what I have been saying. Although I would have put a young cost controlled CF who could bat leadoff and replace Fowler next year. Odubel Herrera or someone like that who could play LF and bat 2nd this season and move to the leadoff spot and CF next year. So SP or future CF would have made sense. A 3 month closer, no matter how dominant is just not worth what they paid.

Well the reality is it is a sign of a all in move trading your #1 and #4 prospects for a rental. Also this move was about a lack of faith in Rondon in high pressure.

 

[chibears55]

Just throwing this out there but if cubs decide to pay up and extend Chapman...
Rondon could be an interesting trade chip come off season with 2 yrs of control left

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[TL1961]

I have yet to name a hall of famer on the White Sox. For your age you would think you could stay on topic.

Based on what just happened with the Cubs, Yes, I've shown you how insufficient your trade offer was for Sale.

I was just having a little fun withbyou, Brett. Not trying to ruffle feathers.

 

[CSF77]

I don't mind that they traded these players, but I don't like the return. They gave up too much for a 3 month rental closer. An overpay is an overpay. They never once lead vs the Mets and I think they gave up a run every first inning. A closer is not going to help that. They needed starting pitching more than an elite closer and maybe another situational lefty out of the pen.

I think they may have overpaid severely twice now. All in on the season does not mean getting fleeced. If they don't win the WS this season they overplayed their hands. As a GM you don't ever want to go that far in on the season.

Lastly, a closer just does not have enough impact on the game. He won't help them at all for innings 1-5 and that is over half the game. All he can do is shift people down one inning so that means it helps you one inning extra a game. I would rather have another starter or a bat. Both will have far more impact in the playoffs.

The Bullpen did not beat the Mets the team did. The Cubs BP last year was not why they lost to the Mets. I think people are oversimplifying the actual flaws of this Cubs team and what happened in the playoffs last year to rationalize this trade.

Murphy wrecked the Cubs. He was neutralized by the Royals. That played a major factor.

 

[TL1961]

Well the reality is it is a sign of a all in move trading your #1 and #4 prospects for a rental. Also this move was about a lack of faith in Rondon in high pressure.

You don't understand what all inmeans, if you consider that trade an "All in" move.

Are you saying they win it all or lose their chance to in near future?

 

[czman]

No, choices are not made in a vacuum.

If it were the Yankees making the same decision, then having the chance at a really good player could take priority over improving their chances of winning a World Series. Why? Because they have been there, done that in regards to winning World Series' in the past 50 years.

The Cubs are a different story. They have not won a World Series in over 100+ years. Winning a World Series is priority +1. The slight increase of winning the World Series because they signed Chapman while losing Torres has much more value to them than the Yankees in the above example.

The length of time between WS does not mean this is the deal that helps the Cubs the most this season. I just don't think this address the main weakness of the team. I still think a SP or a high OBP%guy who can bat 2 this season and take over Fowler next year are bigger needs. I actually don't think this helps them get past the best teams. They still have a lot of SO in their lineup and I don't really like Lackey/Hendricks as game 3/4 and possibly 7 starters. I think they needed someone better than Lester and another high OBP guy to set the tables for the big bats.

 

[czman]

Murphy wrecked the Cubs. He was neutralized by the Royals. That played a major factor.

The Cubs never had a lead and I think they gave up a run in the first inning every game. That basically neutralizes the value of a closer. Hard to argue otherwise. The BP was good. The SP was not.

 

[Hammer]

Another thing Cubs fans need to ask themselves...

Given the last 2 months of SP struggles, do you really think Cubs can win the title with Playoffs rotation of Arrieta, Lester, Lackey and Hammel/Hendricks.

Gotta say that I'm severely doubtful about this one, no matter the defensive and injury issues at C position, Arrieta lost the step and this team basically lacks true ace SP right now.

 

[CSF77]

Just throwing this out there but if cubs decide to pay up and extend Chapman...
Rondon could be an interesting trade chip come off season with 2 yrs of control left

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I would still hold him as the 8th inning guy. Strop causes way more problems as a set up.

 

[czman]

We will see if there is another trade in the works, an overpay is an overpay and this is an overpay. I felt they overpaid Montgomery too.

 

[anotheridiot]

Another thing Cubs fans need to ask themselves...

Given the last 2 months of SP struggles, do you really think Cubs can win the title with Playoffs rotation of Arrieta, Lester, Lackey and Hammel/Hendricks.

Gotta say that I'm severely doubtful about this one, no matter the defensive and injury issues at C position, Arrieta lost the step and this team basically lacks true ace SP right now.

Why do you have hendricks 5th still. He is clearly the 3, why dont people want to admit that, because he does not have a lackey or hammel name? I want our best three pitchers throwing in the playoffs.

 

[CSF77]

I don't mind that they traded these players, but I don't like the return. They gave up too much for a 3 month rental closer. An overpay is an overpay. They never once lead vs the Mets and I think they gave up a run every first inning. A closer is not going to help that. They needed starting pitching more than an elite closer and maybe another situational lefty out of the pen.

We will see if there is another trade in the works, an overpay is an overpay and this is an overpay. I felt they overpaid Montgomery too.

Word is McKenny was devaluing due to adding bad weight. His bat speed and foot speed took a hit. Other 2 were crap.

Next rankings McKenny may not have been in the top 200 prospects after that report.

So was a rental worth Torres? Idk but if that move gets you into the series it is worth it alone.

On the Vogelbach deal.... He is not even a proven talent yet. No place and for a proven lefty with control.

It is the trade from depth for weakness deal.

 

[chibears55]

The length of time between WS does not mean this is the deal that helps the Cubs the most this season. I just don't think this address the main weakness of the team. I still think a SP or a high OBP%guy who can bat 2 this season and take over Fowler next year are bigger needs. I actually don't think this helps them get past the best teams. They still have a lot of SO in their lineup and I don't really like Lackey/Hendricks as game 3/4 and possibly 7 starters. I think they needed someone better than Lester and another high OBP guy to set the tables for the big bats.

And Torres brings all those guys here ?

There still a week left

I think they still look to add that LH bat

The SP, depends on who available but I doubt it going to be anymore then a 6th starter / just in case guy

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[chibears55]

The Cubs never had a lead and I think they gave up a run in the first inning every game. That basically neutralizes the value of a closer. Hard to argue otherwise. The BP was good. The SP was not.

You keep bringing up that series..

That series has nothing to do with what can happen in this year playoff..

New year, different team, different everything



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[TL1961]

The Cubs never had a lead and I think they gave up a run in the first inning every game. That basically neutralizes the value of a closer. Hard to argue otherwise. The BP was good. The SP was not.

So......don't strengthen the pen because of 2015 NLCS?

 

[TL1961]

I mean they had the first two regardless. It's not an either or. The question should be do you "need" Chapman as a 3rd lefty. For one thing, you're not really talking the same situations here. You might use wood for 1 out in the 6th vs a really tough lefty. You're not throwing Chapman out there for one guy. Granted you might start him with a tough lefty in say the 8th and let him finish from there after but he's not going to be pitching for 1 out situations. And generally when you talk about needing a lefty it's in that sort of context. Getting back to the need vs want, my opinion is Rondon is perfectly fine in the 8th/9th vs left handers.

At the end of the day it's just a question of how do you want to allocate your resources? You're saying you want a reliever. My counter to that is you could potentially net Wade Davis or David Robertson for cheaper package and get say 85% of the impact chapman provides. Additionally, I'm still not entirely convinced they even needed him to begin with. Better is always better but at some point you're talking about diminishing returns. My worry is that someone like Jose Fernandez or Chris Sale gets put up for trade in the next 2 years and the cubs are sitting there with what... Soler, Happ, Jiminez and a bag of hopes and dreams. Eventually they are going to have to do something because right now they have one starter who's under the age of 29 and money as we saw this past offseason isn't going to fix all your problems.

85% in the playoffs counts the same as zero %.

 

[czman]

You keep bringing up that series..

That series has nothing to do with what can happen in this year playoff..

New year, different team, different everything



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No I don't, it was brought up CSF77 and I responded to it.

 

[czman]

So......don't strengthen the pen because of 2015 NLCS?

I know Montgomery blew today, but he was brought in to make the pen better and get Richards out. They brought in 2 RP and no starting pitching or hitter. How many times have we seen closers go to crap after they get demoted after a trade. What if this trade ruins Rondon? How much do you really gain?

 

[chibears55]

No I don't, it was brought up CSF77 and I responded to it.

Sorry thought it was you
I know I read that a couple times

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