Trade deadline/rumors

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
4,579
Location:
Hell
Kinda surprised you'd suggest that. You've long been the one saying proven pitching comes at a cost. I get Hammel isn't the prototypical trade piece at the deadline. But he's clearly not nothing. There's a number of teams where he'd easily be the #4 starter in a playoff series. If Sale is two top 25 prospects, and a couple more top 100 prospects and middle of the rotation starters like Moore and Odorizzi are a top 10 prospect, surely Hammel is worth a top 100 prospect in this environment.

Now, I'd agree teams are probably more reluctant to give up current prospects for a guy like Hammel but the reason I specifically mentioned the names I did is because those are former top prospects who've struggled. Over 44 starts Stroman has a career 4.02/3.41 ERA/FIP. Not the worst ever but a 4 ERA doesn't scream top prospect and when you consider this year he's at 4.90/3.95 some of the luster from prospect status should ware off. Over 59 starts, Gausman is similarly at 4.09/3.88. Norris hasn't been as healthy and has only made 17 starts but he's at 4.07/4.72.

As I said before, if I were running a team I'd be reluctant to deal those arms. But given the utter lack of arms that are readily available for anything approaching reasonable, I feel like Hammel has more value than he otherwise would. For example, take Texas. They are supposedly looking at Edison Volquez who's put up similar numbers to Hammel the past 3 years. Would you rather give up Gallo and get Moore/Odorizzi or say Luis Ortiz who's a similar level prospect to Underwood for Volquez/Hammel?

I think I misunderstood you. I thought you wanted to trade Hammel for a young TOR potential guy. :)
 

Raskolnikov

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Aug 23, 2012
Posts:
22,550
Liked Posts:
7,571
Location:
Enemy Territory via southern C
I think the Cubs should spend a chunk of their surplus and go after Sale or Quintana.

The rotation is shaky after Arrieta/Hendricks. There is no guarantee Lackey can get it back, and Hammels just isn't that good. The rotation is probably fine if you trust your young guys to hit top pitching in October, but Sale would make this a heavy championship favorite.

Theo intentionally signed all these international players for this reason, he has plenty of ammo. Shipping Torres out makes Baez/Russell untouchable as they should be. You don't give up defense at a premium defensive position with that type of at bat in the hope of a guy like Torres supposed potential. They are the real deal, extremely young, just invest in them and ride it, let them build chemistry. You already have power at the corners, and bats at catcher.

Fowler/Heyward are perfect defensive/speed balance with that type of infield. Its nearly a perfect team, would be if you were platooning Soler/Schwarber in LF and then Zobrist as utility guy.


If only you had a defensive catcher for your aces. Wait...


Epstein needs to throw the plan out and just go all-in right freaking now. The other huge reason is there is no top resistance. None of these other top teams are remotely scary. Cleveland is the scariest of the bunch? Red Sox?

Giants?

Please.....**** the future. Trade for Sale, or Quintana. Zobrist can play LF if Soler doesn't get hot. So trading for a bat makes no sense, what makes sense is unloading a bunch of that farm system surplus for some pitching right now.

I mean...blow the White Sox away with prospects, who cares about prospects. Who will they ever replace? That lineup is nearly uncrackable, if you must retain a CF because you are too cheap to pay Fowler, and you don't make this move right now for the future, but then you don't have Fowler, you might not have the future you envision.


the future is right freaking now....the Cubs are the only team I see that is elite. If you wait for next year, some of these other squads could re-shape themselves to contend with you.

No price is too high for what Quintana or Sale would do for this club right now.

Maybe the Nationals can go toe to toe. You got about 3 teams to defeat. Red Sox, Nationals, Giants, but I think Sale and an in form Arrieta would be too much and get this fucking thing done. Make it happen.

The stars have aligned. Sale freaks out. And now they are in town. Surely you are having this discussion with Hahn right now Epstein. Suck up your pride and over pay because you can't overpay for a championship.

Sale Sale Sale Sale...just do it.
 

TL1961

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 24, 2013
Posts:
35,000
Liked Posts:
19,094
**** the future?

Or as many fans say "just win one in my lifetime"?

I very much want a WS win, and if we contend for 15 years and don't get one. It will be terrible.

But this idea of "just win one and it's ok to suck again" doesn't work for this fan.

I want years of contending teams, which equals years of fun summers.
 

TC in Mississippi

CCS Staff
Joined:
Oct 22, 2014
Posts:
5,305
Liked Posts:
1,816
**** the future?

Or as many fans say "just win one in my lifetime"?

I very much want a WS win, and if we contend for 15 years and don't get one. It will be terrible.

But this idea of "just win one and it's ok to suck again" doesn't work for this fan.

I want years of contending teams, which equals years of fun summers.

Absolutely. With all due respect to Brett I want to be the Cardinals, not the White Sox.
 

brett05

867-5309
Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
Posts:
27,226
Liked Posts:
4,579
Location:
Hell
Absolutely. With all due respect to Brett I want to be the Cardinals, not the White Sox.

But if you are honest, you'll take the one with failed attempts at more over being competitive but never winning.
 

czman

Well-known member
Joined:
May 7, 2013
Posts:
2,210
Liked Posts:
545
Does anyone feel like this is Russell for Shark and maybe even Rizzo for Cashner.

I have a sinking feeling 2 or3 years from today we will look back and say these are the big mistakes the Cubs made.
 

TC in Mississippi

CCS Staff
Joined:
Oct 22, 2014
Posts:
5,305
Liked Posts:
1,816
But if you are honest, you'll take the one with failed attempts at more over being competitive but never winning.

When push comes to shove? Yeah, I mean absolutely. The thing is that this kind of organization that has groomed itself to be a sustainable, winning model is something I've wanted out of this team since Dallas Green. As of this minute I'm not going to be pissed if they don't win the WS this year because I'm reasonably sure this won't be the only chance. Most every other year the Cubs have been in contention it was pretty apparent that sustainability wasn't in the cards (2003 being an exception). If, however, they were to "all in" to the nth degree this year, trade multiple more prospects and hinder themselves in future years, then I would be VERY disappointed if they didn't win this year. It took the Braves an awful lot of chances to win 1 WS and I don't think it was from lack of trying.
 

TC in Mississippi

CCS Staff
Joined:
Oct 22, 2014
Posts:
5,305
Liked Posts:
1,816
Does anyone feel like this is Russell for Shark and maybe even Rizzo for Cashner.

I have a sinking feeling 2 or3 years from today we will look back and say these are the big mistakes the Cubs made.

I don't know. Yesterday I was pretty opposed to the trade for similar reasons, but after some reflection I feel a little less like that today. I've never once second guessed the decision of the 1984 Cubs trading Joe Carter for Rick Sutcliffe and Torres is a lot less of known commodity than Carter was. There's such a balance between winning today and keeping your organization healthy that I can't even imagine the decisions these guys have to make all the time.
 

chibears55

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 18, 2013
Posts:
13,554
Liked Posts:
1,915
**** the future?

Or as many fans say "just win one in my lifetime"?

I very much want a WS win, and if we contend for 15 years and don't get one. It will be terrible.

But this idea of "just win one and it's ok to suck again" doesn't work for this fan.

I want years of contending teams, which equals years of fun summers.
Trading Vogelbach and Torres hurts their future 5 to 10 yrs from now ?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I527 using Tapatalk
 

Hammer

Active member
Joined:
Oct 22, 2015
Posts:
692
Liked Posts:
224
We can only hope that Epstein will try to package 4-5 prospects like Soler, Almora, Happ, Jimenez, Martinez, Underwood, for a young ace like Sale or Teheran, who could then be added to Cubs young core (consisted of Rizzo, Bryant, Schwarber, Baez, Russell and Contreras).
 

Raskolnikov

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Aug 23, 2012
Posts:
22,550
Liked Posts:
7,571
Location:
Enemy Territory via southern C
**** the future?

Or as many fans say "just win one in my lifetime"?

I very much want a WS win, and if we contend for 15 years and don't get one. It will be terrible.

But this idea of "just win one and it's ok to suck again" doesn't work for this fan.

I want years of contending teams, which equals years of fun summers.

what position are those guys going to play in 3 years?
 

Raskolnikov

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Aug 23, 2012
Posts:
22,550
Liked Posts:
7,571
Location:
Enemy Territory via southern C
By packaging Torres as the center piece for Chapman the Cubs have kept the ammo likely in discussion for Sale because the White Sox have their SS of the future already.
 

Washington

Well-known member
Joined:
Mar 22, 2016
Posts:
3,931
Liked Posts:
2,947
But if you are honest, you'll take the one with failed attempts at more over being competitive but never winning.

Without question. I can't believe there are people here who feel otherwise. I personally am embarrassed being a fan of the biggest laughingstock in the history of all of sports. One championship changes that. Get one and the others should come.

People here want a dynasty but haven't grasped that this team still hasn't even won a division yet. We were in 3rd place in a 5 place division last year. Win ONE and then the stupid dynasty talk can start. Winning one is going to prove to be far harder than what people think. I'll take that one even if it means a few years of mediocrity following. That happened with the Hawks who then had to gut the team due to the cap. They rebuilt and got another championship and then rinsed and repeated. It can be done. Getting the first one is the hardest. A well run organization can lose some talent but rebuild by keeping the core pieces in place. The Hawks have been great at that.
 

Diehardfan

Well-known member
Joined:
Jun 10, 2010
Posts:
9,613
Liked Posts:
7,001
Location:
Western Burbs
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Trading Vogelbach and Torres hurts their future 5 to 10 yrs from now ?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I527 using Tapatalk

Vogelbach? No, regardless of Rizzo...Vog is a DH. Torres? It most certainly could.
 

Diehardfan

Well-known member
Joined:
Jun 10, 2010
Posts:
9,613
Liked Posts:
7,001
Location:
Western Burbs
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
WTF

Does anyone here pay any attention to the best sports franchise in this city? I'm betting Theo did. The Blackhawks didn't want to win one Cup....they wanted to win a few of them. And they have.

Now if you want to win one....you look at Phil Emery, Kenny Williams or Gar/Pax with very limited success on that front.
 

CSF77

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
18,675
Liked Posts:
2,845
Location:
San Diego
One of the thoughts was going after Riddick for LF. This puts him in left and Bryant at 3B vs RH pitching. Baez at 3B and Bryant in LF vs LHP. Contreras would take over more at catcher then.

This is a move that might happen. Theo said minor tweaks because they went at it for long term and it would have cost current roster players to get. So they instead went to Chapman for future help
 

czman

Well-known member
Joined:
May 7, 2013
Posts:
2,210
Liked Posts:
545
what position are those guys going to play in 3 years?

Complete non sequitur. The Cubs traded them for BP help. BP was not the biggest need on this team. The Cubs should not be trading player based on their value to the Cubs, but the value to the other teams in the league.

I still want to know what they are going to do at the end of next season when they could lose 60% of the rotation and Lester will be in his mid 30s. The Cubs had far more glaring needs than 2 LH PB arms. Misdiagnosing the actual weakness of the team and using resources to gain a marginal increase, when there were far greater needs that could have netted a greater gain to the team is what I am am not happy about.

I fully expect a lot of people who love this now will be bitching about in ~3 years; and telling us all how they were against it at the time.
 

chibears55

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 18, 2013
Posts:
13,554
Liked Posts:
1,915
Vogelbach? No, regardless of Rizzo...Vog is a DH. Torres? It most certainly could.
Then you're saying Torres could be better then both Russell and Baez, plus Happ in 3 to 5 yrs..

Plus they don't add a just as good or better MI prospect then Torres in that time frame..

Sent from my LG-V495 using Tapatalk
 

chibears55

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 18, 2013
Posts:
13,554
Liked Posts:
1,915
Complete non sequitur. The Cubs traded them for BP help. BP was not the biggest need on this team. The Cubs should not be trading player based on their value to the Cubs, but the value to the other teams in the league.

I still want to know what they are going to do at the end of next season when they could lose 60% of the rotation and Lester will be in his mid 30s. The Cubs had far more glaring needs than 2 LH PB arms. Misdiagnosing the actual weakness of the team and using resources to gain a marginal increase, when there were far greater needs that could have netted a greater gain to the team is what I am am not happy about.

I fully expect a lot of people who love this now will be bitching about in ~3 years; and telling us all how they were against it at the time.
If ppl are bitching in 3 yrs it won't because they traded Torres.
It would be because Russel and Baez busted, they did nothing to refill Torres departure in adding another MI prospect, and basically the whole team and system failed to win..

Torres is a 19 YO talented class A MI, he could be a very good major league ballplayer in the coming years but not having him won't be the cause of any future breakdown in quality young players on the future Cubs or in their system.
Lets get real here

Sent from my LG-V495 using Tapatalk
 

Washington

Well-known member
Joined:
Mar 22, 2016
Posts:
3,931
Liked Posts:
2,947
WTF

Does anyone here pay any attention to the best sports franchise in this city? I'm betting Theo did. The Blackhawks didn't want to win one Cup....they wanted to win a few of them. And they have.

Now if you want to win one....you look at Phil Emery, Kenny Williams or Gar/Pax with very limited success on that front.

I'm always using the Hawks as an example especially with how Bowman makes moves before the trade deadline and goes for it when they are in contention. They keep their solid core and then constantly tweak around them. Some moves work and some don't but they have 3 current championships to show for it. I love how Bowman runs that ship.
 

Top