Update On The "Great Moves".

[Boobaby1]

This in a nutshell is your problem with the cubs. I had more of a reply typed out but in reality if you can't get past this then there's no reason to talk. It's not loser mentality it's called being realistic. Sometimes you just don't have the team to win and you've yet to prove they did even with high priced additions. And they did spend money in 2012/2013 on FAs. They just didn't drop $20 mil a season on a player. You brush it off like it doesn't matter but I've shown many of those players have played better than players making $10 mil/year or more. But because they aren't big names you don't give a crap.

Also, you cite the O's and A's and they are teams that have done the exact thing you suggest as being a loser mentality. They traded away Bedard and got back 2 core prospects(jones tillman) and then lost around 90 games for 5 straight years before last year. Before last year Oakland traded their 2 best pitchers in Gonzo and Cahill. Neither of these two teams signed high priced FA's like Fielder/Hamilton/Pujols...etc. By your arguments they weren't trying to compete. But then their young talent got to the majors and things came together.

This is literally what you're bitching at the cubs for doing. You can't have it both ways that those teams are doing things right and the cubs are doing it wrong for doing the same thing. That's why people are saying you're trolling because it's hypocrisy.

Right now, the Cubs are weaker at the starting rotation and core, and a pitcher like Garza needs to be added and offensive production also needs to be added to replace Soriano's numbers just to bring the team back to a below average team.

The Iowa Cubs stink and there is not much to promote from there, and any talent the Cubs have is at Tennessee, Daytona, and Kane County which figure to be another 2-3 years away at best IF they even make it. opcorn:

 

[beckdawg]

Neither team dropped their payrolls by nearly 1/3 like the Cubs did from 2011 to 2012. If you think Oakland operates under the same resources that the Cubs do, well it is a waste of time to talk baseball with you because you do not have a clue.

The fact that they cut back on salary over the past 2 years doesn't mean they haven't spent any money to get better. Instead it means that players like Carlos Marmol and Zambrano were greatly over paid and the cubs ditching them was no real loss. Between those two players alone the cubs shed close to $30 million in payroll which would be probably around 1/4th of there total 2011 payroll.

Also, if the cubs were indeed in tank salary for prospects mode like you say then why would they sign Edwin Jackson? He's not the cheap flippable pitcher like Maholm/Baker/Feldman. He's not a big name to placate fans like you. In free agency last year they spent $76,725,000 which happens to be more than Oakland's entire 2013 payroll just from free agents and around $20 mil less than the O's 2013 payroll.

So, to sit here and say they haven't tried is beyond absurd. Just for reference, Baltimore spent ~$28 mil over 2 years in FA and Oakland spent ~$60 mil. The cubs have spent ~$100 million. Please fill me in on the threshold for "trying" because spending twice what smaller market teams do in FA apparently isn't it.

 

[beckdawg]

Right now, the Cubs are weaker at the starting rotation and core, and a pitcher like Garza needs to be added and offensive production also needs to be added to replace Soriano's numbers just to bring the team back to a below average team.

Let's address Soriano first. Soriano had 1 year left on his deal at $19,000,000 I think. If we're talking the next 3 years Soriano would have to be replaced regardless as he's a FA after the season. You need to replace something like 25 hr's, 85 rbi's and a .260 average. If you project Lake's numbers over a typical 600 ab season he's got something like 24 hr's 56 RBI's and a .333 average. Is it out of the realm of possibility to expect 15-20 HRs, 70 RBI's and a .280 average out of him next year? And if he puts that up, it's not like it's a gaping hole. It's just 5-10 HR's and 15-20 RBI's you need to get some where else. But you're also putting a young guy on the field to see if he's ready or not.

As for Garza, he's a FA next year. Presumably they couldn't agree on an extension which is why he was dealt to begin with. And if that's the case then he would have needed to be replaced anyways.

 

[Parade_Rain]

I believe Schilling was traded for, wasn't he?

Yes. The year before the WS. Doh! on my part. He wasn't an original Diamondback, which is why I thought of him.

 

[patg006]

Let's address Soriano first. Soriano had 1 year left on his deal at $19,000,000 I think. If we're talking the next 3 years Soriano would have to be replaced regardless as he's a FA after the season. You need to replace something like 25 hr's, 85 rbi's and a .260 average. If you project Lake's numbers over a typical 600 ab season he's got something like 24 hr's 56 RBI's and a .333 average. Is it out of the realm of possibility to expect 15-20 HRs, 70 RBI's and a .280 average out of him next year? And if he puts that up, it's not like it's a gaping hole. It's just 5-10 HR's and 15-20 RBI's you need to get some where else. But you're also putting a young guy on the field to see if he's ready or not.

As for Garza, he's a FA next year. Presumably they couldn't agree on an extension which is why he was dealt to begin with. And if that's the case then he would have needed to be replaced anyways.

Dont assume Junior Lake, though having a fantastic tear; is going to immediately replace Soriano's production. That's incredibly lofty wishful thinking, and will likely disappoint you when Lake hits the wall that becomes the league pitching adjusting to him. And no, he cant bunt single every at bat. He has to readjust, its how baseball players become great. Right now I'm enjoying the ride, but surely not expecting him to maintain this. Sadly, a slump will come soon, its inevitable.

Also, if the cubs were indeed in tank salary for prospects mode like you say then why would they sign Edwin Jackson? He's not the cheap flippable pitcher like Maholm/Baker/Feldman. He's not a big name to placate fans like you. In free agency last year they spent $76,725,000 which happens to be more than Oakland's entire 2013 payroll just from free agents and around $20 mil less than the O's 2013 payroll.

So, to sit here and say they haven't tried is beyond absurd. Just for reference, Baltimore spent ~$28 mil over 2 years in FA and Oakland spent ~$60 mil. The cubs have spent ~$100 million. Please fill me in on the threshold for "trying" because spending twice what smaller market teams do in FA apparently isn't it.

They signed Edwin Jackson because they had to, fans and media pressure was getting to them to do something, and it was likely a move to appease the masses after missing out on Anibal Sanchez. They have not tried to improve the major league team, and if they have; it was/still is a half-assed effort. They made spam taste slightly better by adding ketchup, not turning it into filet mignon; to some that's progress, to me thats still shit.

At this point, I expect another 'well what would you do, then troll?' from the board's impeccable brain trust of Theo can do no wrong slurpers. At this point, resign Nate, trade DeJesus, aggressively pursue Shin Soo Choo on a 4 year deal and bullpen help (Jeff karstens and Grant Balfour) along with Doc Halladay--who I honestly think Shark can learn alot from to improve his splitter and command and be the next deadline flip guy.

I expect Kevin Gregg and another no-name outfielder to be signed after Nate getting paid by someone else, minor improvements to the kids, and still no minor league pitching worth getting excited about at the AAA level unless Pierce just cleans house at AA.....

 

[JosMin]

The Roy Halladay possibility is an interesting one -- his option isn't going to vest going into '14. What is he going to be worth on the open market? He's battled injuries the last two years and with him turning 37 next May, is a team going to be willing to give him anything long term? It was more than apparent that whatever shoulder troubles he had before this surgery were destroying his mechanics. I watched some good videos showing a complete change in arm slot and an inability to get proper rotation on his breaking pitches.

He'd be an interesting guy to monitor. He's one of the hardest workers in baseball, so I'm sure he's tackling rehab 100%. At this stage of his career, I would assume he wants to chase a title, and we all agree that the Cubs are more than likely at least one more season away for contending for the playoffs. I could certainly see him returning to Philly if that team makes the right roster adjustments -- they have the pitching to contend, or an AL team like Boston, Texas or even Detroit. Shit, could you imagine him in Detroit's rotation? Verlander, Scherzer, Sanchez, Porcello and Halladay? That's unfair.

 

[dabynsky]

Typical.

What about the other five names mentioned?

Yet you want to whine and cry and make an issue out of the least significant name on the list.

So I take it you have no answer then, typical.

 

[beckdawg]

Dont assume Junior Lake, though having a fantastic tear; is going to immediately replace Soriano's production. That's incredibly lofty wishful thinking, and will likely disappoint you when Lake hits the wall that becomes the league pitching adjusting to him. And no, he cant bunt single every at bat. He has to readjust, its how baseball players become great. Right now I'm enjoying the ride, but surely not expecting him to maintain this. Sadly, a slump will come soon, its inevitable.

And you can't automatically assume he will slump either. That's kind of the point. No one knows until he's out there and with Soriano playing he wasn't going to see time. But even if he does struggle, Soriano had 1 year left on his deal. You have to replace him eventually. And it's not like Soriano had monstrous numbers that are impossible to replace. If it's not Lake, someone like Soler will get a shot in the next year or two.

They signed Edwin Jackson because they had to, fans and media pressure was getting to them to do something, and it was likely a move to appease the masses after missing out on Anibal Sanchez. They have not tried to improve the major league team, and if they have; it was/still is a half-assed effort.

I highly doubt that's the case because did it appease you? No. Edwin Jackson isn't a "name." He's a #3 pitcher at best. I've seen next to no pressure from the media for the cubs to sign players and the majority of fans I know realize they are rebuilding. And if they really did sign him to just appease the fans they are fucking Special person. You don't sign players to make your fans happy you sign them because you think they help you win.

 

[mountsalami]

And if they really did sign him to just appease the fans they are fucking Special person. You don't sign players to make your fans happy you sign them because you think they help you win.

Any other good reasons why they signed him for four years ? I mean WTF we are rebuilding. Right ?

Looks like Jackson along with the heaping piles of shit they've obtained off the scrap heap, must have been brought in with the idea to win.

Got it !!!!!

 

[beckdawg]

Any other good reasons why they signed him for four years ? I mean WTF we are rebuilding. Right ?

Looks like Jackson along with the heaping piles of shit they've obtained off the scrap heap, must have been brought in with the idea to win.

Got it !!!!!

Jackson hasn't performed as well as most would hope. But, let's for a moment pretend Garza was healthy to start the season. At that point you have Garza, Shark, Jackson, and some combo of Wood/Feldman/Baker(if he could have gotten healthy). That obviously what they viewed the rotation as when they signed players. The rotation wouldn't have been the problem. They are 24th in runs scored which is their main problem. They are 9th in runs against.

So to say Jackson hasn't helped them win is inaccurate. You have a fair argument if you suggest they should have also gotten a few more bats. But their biggest problems offensively would probably be 3B and 2B and there weren't many quality FA's there. Marco Scutaro I think is the only 2B worth talking about and he obviously wanted to go back to the Giants. It also doesn't help that Castro was terrible for the first half of the year.

 

[mountsalami]

Jackson hasn't performed as well as most would hope. But, let's for a moment pretend Garza was healthy to start the season. At that point you have Garza, Shark, Jackson, and some combo of Wood/Feldman/Baker(if he could have gotten healthy). That obviously what they viewed the rotation as when they signed players. The rotation wouldn't have been the problem. They are 24th in runs scored which is their main problem. They are 9th in runs against.

So to say Jackson hasn't helped them win is inaccurate. You have a fair argument if you suggest they should have also gotten a few more bats. But their biggest problems offensively would probably be 3B and 2B and there weren't many quality FA's there. Marco Scutaro I think is the only 2B worth talking about and he obviously wanted to go back to the Giants. It also doesn't help that Castro was terrible for the first half of the year.

Most already knew before the start of the season that this team would have trouble scoring runs since they added nothing of any substance.

Never said Jackson hasn't helped the team. This team can't be helped if Command Central doesn't even try. They haven't helped Jackson or the team period. They could have easily added some better everyday bats in the outfield.
Let's hear all the excuses as to why we shouldn't have........

Might bust, too old, not going to compete anyway, too expensive, blocking talent at A and AA, the plan is to compete in 2015, blah blah blah.......

For some of us that are perceived as far too negative, at least we don't have a defeatist mentality that seems to run rampant with the slurp machine.


[video=youtube;oewrmB-MHkg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oewrmB-MHkg[/video]

 

[beckdawg]

Never said Jackson hasn't helped the team. This team can't be helped if Command Central doesn't even try. They haven't helped Jackson or the team period. They could have easily added some better everyday bats in the outfield.
Let's hear all the excuses as to why we shouldn't have........

Shierholtz has played well in the OF. He's probably the best OF FA signing of the past year(for this year) as I outlined earlier in the topic based on the production he's put up so far. Dejesus was hurt but played well in his time. Soriano was pretty terrible to start the year but came on the month or so before he was traded. Obviously you couldn't know Dejesus would get hurt. And there was no replacing Soriano. They maybe could have added another bench outfielder to stem the time when Dejesus was injured.

But, honestly, I think Castro not playing up to his past seasons and 3B and 2B giving them next to nothing is what really hurt. That said, I'm not delusional here. They still wouldn't have been a top offense. But, they would have been better.

I'm not saying they made perfect moves. No team does. But they did things to try and get better.

 

[mountsalami]

Shierholtz has played well in the OF. He's probably the best OF FA signing of the past year(for this year) as I outlined earlier in the topic based on the production he's put up so far. Dejesus was hurt but played well in his time. Soriano was pretty terrible to start the year but came on the month or so before he was traded. Obviously you couldn't know Dejesus would get hurt. And there was no replacing Soriano. They maybe could have added another bench outfielder to stem the time when Dejesus was injured.

But, honestly, I think Castro not playing up to his past seasons and 3B and 2B giving them next to nothing is what really hurt. That said, I'm not delusional here. They still wouldn't have been a top offense. But, they would have been better.

I'm not saying they made perfect moves. No team does. But they did things to try and get better.

Having bench players like DeJesus and Scheitholez on your team as mostly starters is what I would call terrible. Nate would make a nice seviceable fourth outfielder. Nothing more. DeJesus is garbage that somehow is perceived as good on this pathetic ballclub.

That should tell you something right there. We now have one of the five worst outfields in baseball. That's being conservative.

 

[mountsalami]

But they did things to try and get better.

:fap:

 

[beckdawg]

Having bench players like DeJesus and Scheitholez on your team as mostly starters is what I would call terrible. Nate would make a nice seviceable fourth outfielder. Nothing more. DeJesus is garbage that somehow is perceived as good on this pathetic ballclub.

That should tell you something right there. We now have one of the five worst outfields in baseball. That's being conservative.

On Scheitholez, most years you're probably right. He's probably best as a bat off the bench to match to the appropriate handed pitcher and give guys a day off. But the fact is this year he's hitting .268 with 14 HR's and 43 RBI's. It's probably luck. But the fact is you're not going to find much better performance in FA. So whether the front office is lucky or actually knew he would be good you can't really complain about him being out there this year.

As for Dejesus, if he had played a full years his numbers project to something like .267 with 15 HRs and 67 RBI's. Admittedly not great but compare it to say Shin-Soo Choo who projects to .281 22 HR's and 51 RBI's as the Reds CFer. So, you can win with those type of players.

If we're going to complain about OF's I'm going to talk about Soriano. In his first 3 months he had 9 HR's and 35 RBI's. In july he had 9 HR's and 20 RBI's. In other words, they didn't get much out of him the first 3 months. In those 3 months, the were 35-45 and probably well out of contention already. They were like 7-6 in July but by that point it didn't matter. Being the highest paid player on the team they needed to get more out of him than they did those first 3 months. They probably still wouldn't have been in contention for the playoffs but if you start 35-45 you're out of it and he was a big part of that though not the only part.

 

[KBisBack!]

Instead it means that players like Carlos Marmol and Zambrano were greatly over paid and the cubs ditching them was no real loss. Between those two players alone the cubs shed close to $30 million in payroll which would be probably around 1/4th of there total 2011 payroll.

You are an idiot.

The Cubs paid pretty much the entire contracts for both these players.

They didn't save any money on these moves.

Also, if the cubs were indeed in tank salary for prospects mode like you say then why would they sign Edwin Jackson? He's not the cheap flippable pitcher like Maholm/Baker/Feldman. He's not a big name to placate fans like you. In free agency last year they spent $76,725,000 which happens to be more than Oakland's entire 2013 payroll just from free agents and around $20 mil less than the O's 2013 payroll.

No they didn't spend that much. You are counting the entire 4 years of Jackson's salary like it was all paid this offseason.

You are clueless.

Also I was against the Jackson signing the minute it happened. It was a terrible signing. Sorry to burst your myth that I am only about spending money.

So, to sit here and say they haven't tried is beyond absurd. Just for reference, Baltimore spent ~$28 mil over 2 years in FA and Oakland spent ~$60 mil. The cubs have spent ~$100 million. Please fill me in on the threshold for "trying" because spending twice what smaller market teams do in FA apparently isn't it.

Again, Oakland and Baltimore do not have the same resources as the Cubs have. I have said this multiple times now.

I probably will only have to say it about 70-80 more times based on how you still think there are people against building the farm system after it has been stated about 100 times now that no one has said that.

 

[KBisBack!]

If you project Lake's numbers over a typical 600 ab season he's got something like 24 hr's 56 RBI's and a .333 average.

Glad we are being realistic.

As for Garza, he's a FA next year. Presumably they couldn't agree on an extension which is why he was dealt to begin with. And if that's the case then he would have needed to be replaced anyways.

And really who can blame him for wanting off this train wreck?

 

[JosMin]

Read this article on the Travis Wood/Sean Marshall swap... somewhat of an interesting perspective, although I think it's a tad big over-dramatic. Marshall has pitched very well the three seasons prior to this one, and was on his way to another solid season until his arm issues flared up. Pitchers get injured, shit happens. I still think, in hindsight, it was a very good trade for both teams. The Cubs capitalized on Marshall's value and turned him into a pitcher who figures to be in their rotation for a long time. Did the Reds overpay Marshall? Sure, I think you could say his annual salary is a bit high for a setup man. But when you figure you get a guy who's proven he can produce and also pitch well in the playoffs, you've got something of value. Honestly, if the Reds really wanted to unload Marshall, I'm certain they could find a guy to take him, even with his salary being a bit higher among setup men.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/cincin...ade-chicago-cubs-sean-marshall-154500664.html

 

[X]

Read this article on the Travis Wood/Sean Marshall swap... somewhat of an interesting perspective, although I think it's a tad big over-dramatic. Marshall has pitched very well the three seasons prior to this one, and was on his way to another solid season until his arm issues flared up. Pitchers get injured, shit happens. I still think, in hindsight, it was a very good trade for both teams. The Cubs capitalized on Marshall's value and turned him into a pitcher who figures to be in their rotation for a long time. Did the Reds overpay Marshall? Sure, I think you could say his annual salary is a bit high for a setup man. But when you figure you get a guy who's proven he can produce and also pitch well in the playoffs, you've got something of value. Honestly, if the Reds really wanted to unload Marshall, I'm certain they could find a guy to take him, even with his salary being a bit higher among setup men.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/cincin...ade-chicago-cubs-sean-marshall-154500664.html

Also, at the time, the Reds had 7 pitchers that were capable of being solid Major League pitchers. They had to unload at least one, anyway...I'd heard that it was between Leake and Wood, and the Cubs chose the one w/ more upside, but potentially further away from the Majors...

 

[Boobaby1]

Let's address Soriano first. Soriano had 1 year left on his deal at $19,000,000 I think. If we're talking the next 3 years Soriano would have to be replaced regardless as he's a FA after the season. You need to replace something like 25 hr's, 85 rbi's and a .260 average. If you project Lake's numbers over a typical 600 ab season he's got something like 24 hr's 56 RBI's and a .333 average. Is it out of the realm of possibility to expect 15-20 HRs, 70 RBI's and a .280 average out of him next year? And if he puts that up, it's not like it's a gaping hole. It's just 5-10 HR's and 15-20 RBI's you need to get some where else. But you're also putting a young guy on the field to see if he's ready or not.

As for Garza, he's a FA next year. Presumably they couldn't agree on an extension which is why he was dealt to begin with. And if that's the case then he would have needed to be replaced anyways.

Regardless of the numbers Lake puts up or not, he does not bring to the table a power threat that Soriano had, thus, he gave protection to Rizzo.

Furthermore, the Cubs ate almost all of Soriano's contract and they said that every penny was spent this year. Now, I am no rocket scientist, but that leaves very little money to replace him, and Garza's money would have to be used to get a pitcher of somewhat equal value like Santana or Lincecum.

Again, they are right back where they started this year at best case scenario.

They will have to use the Marmol and Hairston money to add a left fielder unless Rickett's wants to release some of his precious money. opcorn: